Recently I laid down some rules of thumb by which I will decide which reader comments I will post and which I will not. I will not post comments by persons who come here only to argue, heckle or try to embarrass me (or someone else). This is a forum for dialogue. I will never post comments that engage in ridicule or intentional misrepresentation of others’ views.
Fortunately, following those rules of thumb has worked to calm things down quite a bit. Some of the more aggressive Calvinists who came here only to heckle me or insist that I respond to a certain critic, etc., have gone away after I have declined to post their comments. For the most part, the discussion here has improved dramatically.
In the interests of Christian brotherhood, I’d like to take up a collection for Roger Olson. He can’t stand the heat. He suffers from third-degree burns whenever Calvinists mount arguments against his Arminian objections to Reformed theology.
Olson is tolerant of pluralistic viewpoints in the Arminian echo chamber.
ReplyDeleteOlson is just another Arminian convinced by the cowardice of his convictions to search for a monologue.
ReplyDeleteI see he elects those comments that he finds worthy and will further his glory, while consigning those critical of his glory to the dark hole of the blogosphere, forever. He is able to choose all to be published, so why doesn't he? I must admit, it's hard for me to distinguish Olson from the devil.
ReplyDeleteSlandering another Christian on the internet...?
ReplyDelete"If someone says, “I love God,” and hates his brother, he is a liar; for the one who does not love his brother whom he has seen, cannot love God whom he has not seen." - 1 Jn. 4:30.
Demonstrate the "slander."
ReplyDeleteDon't play dumb with me, Steve. The most obvious is the childish picking on Olson recieving "burns" etc... But more implicitly, this is a mocking parody of Olson's post(about his own blog, by the way), here: http://www.patheos.com/blogs/rogereolson/2011/12/a-quick-comment-about-discussion-here/
ReplyDeleteMr Hays, please don't mock other Christians:
"Never pay back evil for evil to anyone. Respect what is right in the sight of all men. If possible, so far as it depends on you, be at peace with all men." - Rom. 12:17-18.
"To sum up, all of you be harmonious, sympathetic, brotherly, kindhearted, and humble in spirit; not returning evil for evil or insult for insult, but giving a blessing instead; for you were called for the very purpose that you might inherit a blessing." - 1 Pet. 3:8-9.
i) To begin with, it was satire.
ReplyDeleteii) Secondly, you haven't demonstrated "slander." A parody hardly constitutes "slander."
iii) As far as "slander" goes, if you want to see real slander, just consider how Olson slanders God as diabolical or morally monstrous.
iv) You trivialize the notion of "hate."
v) You impute psychological states to me ("hate") that you're in no position to verify.
vi) "Evil for evil"? So you're admitting that Olson's post was evil?
vii) I don't acknowledge Olson as a fellow Christian. He rejects OT theism. He rejects Yahweh. He rejects the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. He rejects the God of the Exodus. In so doing, he also rejects the God of NT theism.
It would behoove you to be less concerned with defending a man who dishonors God than with honoring God.
So you do not deny that this post was intentioned maliciousness against Olson's post. Good to know.
ReplyDeleteYet there's a more fundamental concern: You do not consider Olson a Christian. That's your preogerative. But, first and foremost (just to let you know) I think that's completely bogus; in my opinion, your belief that Olson is not a Christian is bogus (and no I don't say his posts are evil; yet YOU consider them so... hence the Scripture). Secondly, even if that WAS the case, ALL THE MORE REASON NOT TO POST THESE KINDS OF SLANDEROUS AND/OR INTENTIONALLY NASTY THINGS:
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1 “You shall not bear a false report; do not join your hand with a wicked man to be a malicious witness. 2 You shall not follow [a]the masses in doing evil, nor shall you [b]testify in a dispute so as to turn aside after [c]a multitude in order to pervert justice; 3 nor shall you [d]be partial to a poor man in his dispute.
4 “If you meet your enemy’s ox or his donkey wandering away, you shall surely return it to him. 5 If you see the donkey of one who hates you lying helpless under its load, you shall refrain from leaving it to him, you shall surely release it with him.
6 “You shall not pervert the justice due to your needy brother in his dispute. 7 Keep far from a false charge, and do not kill the innocent or the righteous, for I will not acquit the guilty. - Ex. 23:1-7.
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43 “You have heard that it was said, ‘YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR and hate your enemy.’ 44 But I say to you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45 so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven; for He causes His sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. 46 For if you love those who love you, what reward do you have? Do not even the tax collectors do the same? 47 If you greet only your brothers, what more are you doing than others? Do not even the Gentiles do the same? 48 Therefore [aq]you are to be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect." - Matt. 5:43-48.
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"...sanctify [set apart] Christ as Lord in your hearts, always being ready to make a defense to everyone who asks you to give an account for the hope that is in you, yet with gentleness and reverence [/respect]..." ` 1 Pet. 3:15.
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7 Beloved, let us love one another, for love is from God; and everyone who loves is born of God and knows God. 8 The one who does not love does not know God, for God is love. 9 By this the love of God was manifested [b]in us, that God has sent His [c]only begotten Son into the world so that we might live through Him. 10 In this is love, not that we loved God, but that He loved us and sent His Son to be the propitiation for our sins. 11 Beloved, if God so loved us, we also ought to love one another. 12 No one has seen God at any time; if we love one another, God abides in us, and His love is perfected in us. 13 By this we know that we abide in Him and He in us, because He has given us of His Spirit. 14 We have seen and testify that the Father has sent the Son to be the Savior of the world. - 1 Jn. 4:7-14.
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16 If anyone sees his brother committing a sin not leading to death, he shall ask and God will for him give life to those who commit sin not leading to death. There is a sin leading to death; I do not say that he should make request for this. 17 All unrighteousness is sin, and there is a sin not leading to death. - 1 Jn. 5:16-17.
Steve said:vii) "I don't acknowledge Olson as a fellow Christian. He rejects the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. He rejects the God of the Exodus.
ReplyDeleteIt would behoove you to be less concerned with defending a man who dishonors God than with honoring God."
Unbelievable: This is at best an arrogant statement. Do you really equate your Calvinist interpretation of God to who God really is, as if it came straight from the throne to Calvin’s mind and then to yours? Then let us all put down our pens, and put our minds at ease, and canonize Calvinism. Ridiculous.
You are proving Arminians right by making your doctrine determined by God.
Dane
Your utter unfamiliarity with Olson and his liberalism is showing. Search the archives here. It's well documented.
ReplyDeleteMatthew,
ReplyDeleteOlson is not liberal at all; that's a false statement. But even if he WERE liberal--or an unbeliever--do you think that gives anyone (who claims to be a follower of Christ) the right to intentionally post nasty things about them on the internet and act as if that is not slander? I thought we were called to be gentle and respectful in our answers, and to even love our enemies. Indeed, in this we should reflect the divine nature.
SENTIMENTSASSUCH SAID:
ReplyDelete“So you do not deny that this post was intentioned maliciousness against Olson's post. Good to know.”
Actually, it’s your misrepresentation of what I said that’s intentionally malicious. Nice to see you emulate the vices you impute to others.
“Secondly, even if that WAS the case, ALL THE MORE REASON NOT TO POST THESE KINDS OF SLANDEROUS AND/OR INTENTIONALLY NASTY THINGS”
i) Repeating the charge of “slander” doesn’t make it true. You have yet to demonstrate your allegation.
ii) There’s nothing inherently “nasty” about satire. Stop acting like a little girl.
As to your spooftexting:
iii) Quoting Ex 23 is irrelevant unless and until you can show how I bore false witness against Olson.
iv) Quoting Bible verses about loving our “enemy” are irrelevant unless you can show that Olson is my “enemy.”
vi) Quoting Bible verses about not “hating” others are irrelevant unless you can demonstrate that I “hate” Roger Olson.
What your doing is to resort to the demagogical tactics of the Left, which routinely demonizes political opponents as haters. For instance, if you oppose sodomy, then the Left will accuse you of “hate speech.” Of “hating” homosexuals.
vii) You’re appeal to 1 John is acontextual. Who is hating whom in 1 John? In context, the haters are John’s theological opponents. In context, the haters are schismatic heretics who broke fellowship with members of John’s churches in Asia Minor. They are the ones who hate the brethren.
By analogy, Olson is the hater who hates the brethren. For instance, he recently said:
“This appears when people say they would believe whatever the Bible said EVEN IF it said God is a monster. Then I know they are investing too much faith in scripture and not enough in the God who inspired scripture. In my opinion, they are flirting with bibliolatry…To be perfectly blunt, I shudder when I encounter people who seem to me to be worshiping scripture to that extent…”
viii) My little satire is exceedingly mild compared to what Jude has to say about false teachers. Does that make Jude a hater too? Does that make Jude a slanderer too?
Dane said...
ReplyDelete“Unbelievable: This is at best an arrogant statement. Do you really equate your Calvinist interpretation of God to who God really is, as if it came straight from the throne to Calvin’s mind and then to yours? Then let us all put down our pens, and put our minds at ease, and canonize Calvinism. Ridiculous.”
i) Did I say anything about Calvinism? No. I said Olson rejects “Yahweh.” Olson rejects OT theism.
Your reaction illustrates your inkblot mentality, where you see things that aren’t there.
ii) As I said back in June, when writers like Randal Rauser and Roger Olson deny that God ever commanded the execution of the Canaanites on the grounds that such a God would be evil, and when they contrast that with Jesus, what they’re doing is to repristinate the Marcionite heresy. There’s the evil God of the OT, exemplified by Yahweh, then there’s the good God of the NT, exemplified by Jesus.
At this point, writers like Rauser and Olson forfeit any claim to be Christian. They don’t believe in the OT God. They find the OT God morally repugnant. And this is despite the fact that Jesus and the NT writers treat the OT God as the one true God. The God of the OT is the God of the NT.
Writers like Rauser and Olson don’t believe what Jesus believed. They don’t believe what other NT authors believed.
They come to Scripture with a preconception of what God, if there is a God, must be like. When they don’t find what they’re looking for in the Bible, when they encounter depictions that challenge their preconceptions, they revile and deny the offending depictions.
Dane said...
ReplyDelete"Unbelievable: This is at best an arrogant statement. Do you really equate your Calvinist interpretation of God to who God really is, as if it came straight from the throne to Calvin’s mind and then to yours? Then let us all put down our pens, and turn off our brains and our minds at ease, and canonize Calvinism. Ridiculous."
Just to set the record straight, Roger Olson takes the position that Calvinists who grasp the implications of Calvinism are idolaters and devil-worshipers. So he refuses to acknowledge consistent Calvinists as fellow Christians.
sentimentassuch said:
ReplyDelete"Olson is not liberal at all; that's a false statement. But even if he WERE liberal--or an unbeliever--do you think that gives anyone (who claims to be a follower of Christ) the right to intentionally post nasty things about them on the internet and act as if that is not slander? I thought we were called to be gentle and respectful in our answers, and to even love our enemies. Indeed, in this we should reflect the divine nature."
Of course, the "the divine nature" should be reflected in a life conformed to the totality of the Word of God. So if you're going to quote the sorts of verses you've quoted, then at least don't forget to include other verses too:
"Answer a fool according to his folly, lest he be wise in his own eyes." (Prov 26:5)
"Better is open rebuke than hidden love." (Prov 27:5)
"'Are you still so dull?' Jesus asked them." (Mt 15:16)
"And Peter took him aside and began to rebuke him, saying, 'Far be it from you, Lord! This shall never happen to you.' But he turned and said to Peter, 'Get behind me, Satan! You are a hindrance to me. For you are not setting your mind on the things of God, but on the things of man.'" (Mt 16:22-23)
"But woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites!...Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you travel across sea and land to make a single proselyte, and when he becomes a proselyte, you make him twice as much a child of hell as yourselves. Woe to you, blind guides...You blind fools!...You blind men! Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you tithe mint and dill and cumin, and have neglected the weightier matters of the law: justice and mercy and faithfulness. These you ought to have done, without neglecting the others. You blind guides, straining out a gnat and swallowing a camel! Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you clean the outside of the cup and the plate, but inside they are full of greed and self-indulgence. You blind Pharisee! First clean the inside of the cup and the plate, that the outside also may be clean. Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you are like whitewashed tombs, which outwardly appear beautiful, but within are full of dead people’s bones and all uncleanness. So you also outwardly appear righteous to others, but within you are full of hypocrisy and lawlessness. Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites!...You serpents, you brood of vipers, how are you to escape being sentenced to hell?" (Mt 23)
"If anyone teaches a different doctrine and does not agree with the sound words of our Lord Jesus Christ and the teaching that accords with godliness, he is puffed up with conceit and understands nothing." (1 Tim 6:3)
"As for those who persist in sin, rebuke them in the presence of all, so that the rest may stand in fear." (1 Tim 5:20)
"But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you...Bold and arrogant, they are not afraid to heap abuse on celestial beings...They are like unreasoning animals, creatures of instinct, born only to be caught and destroyed, and like animals they too will perish...They are blots and blemishes, reveling in their pleasures while they feast with you. With eyes full of adultery, they never stop sinning; they seduce the unstable; they are experts in greed - an accursed brood! They have left the straight way and wandered off to follow the way of Balaam son of Bezer, who loved the wages of wickedness. But he was rebuked for his wrongdoing by a donkey - an animal without speech - who spoke with a human voice and restrained the prophet’s madness. These people are springs without water and mists driven by a storm. Blackest darkness is reserved for them. For they mouth empty, boastful words and, by appealing to the lustful desires of the flesh, they entice people who are just escaping from those who live in error. They promise them freedom, while they themselves are slaves of depravity - for 'people are slaves to whatever has mastered them.' If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and are overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning. It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than to have known it and then to turn their backs on the sacred command that was passed on to them. Of them the proverbs are true: 'A dog returns to its vomit,' and, 'A sow that is washed returns to her wallowing in the mud.'" (2 Pet 2:1ff)
ReplyDelete"But these people blaspheme all that they do not understand, and they are destroyed by all that they, like unreasoning animals, understand instinctively. Woe to them! For they walked in the way of Cain and abandoned themselves for the sake of gain to Balaam’s error and perished in Korah’s rebellion. These are hidden reefs at your love feasts, as they feast with you without fear, shepherds feeding themselves; waterless clouds, swept along by winds; fruitless trees in late autumn, twice dead, uprooted; wild waves of the sea, casting up the foam of their own shame; wandering stars, for whom the gloom of utter darkness has been reserved forever...These are grumblers, malcontents, following their own sinful desires; they are loud-mouthed boasters, showing favoritism to gain advantage." (Jude 10-16)
And so on and so forth.
Olson said: "I will never post comments that engage in ridicule or intentional misrepresentation of others’ views."
ReplyDeleteSo why is he still posting?
Seven Hays,
ReplyDeleteI am not going to argue with you about this. At the end of the day, you have chosen to intentionally post something up about another person which is obviously disrespectful and/or denigrating of their character. That is unacceptable.
The fact that you pronounce something unacceptable doesn't make it so. That merely reflects your inflated sense of self-importance.
ReplyDelete