Thursday, September 21, 2006

To Our Anonymous Muslim Apologist

In the combox of my post on Islam we've had an anonymous Muslim commenter trying to do Muslim apologetics. Most of his comments seem to not be a response to my arguments so much, but, rather, are used as his soapbox to rant about zionism, President Bush, and the materialistic Americans. Only recently has he even attampted to offer anything substantial. Since he's upped the ante, I'll make my response public.


Dear Muslim Anonymous,

Muslim anonymous will be MA and I will be PM.

MA: Allah or God in Islam is merciful. He tells us in the holy books especially in the Holy Quran that he forgives all sins except ascribing to Him

PM: What holy books? If Allah spoke in the taurat, as you admit, then what do you make of his claim that there is NO REMISSION OF SIN WITHOUT THE SHEDDING OF BLOOD? The problem here is that throughout the old testament we read, over an over again, that there can be no remission of sin without the shedding of blood (Lev. 17:11; Eze. 18:4;).

For God to be just he must punish sin. Why did "Allah" require these bloody rituals in the Tauraut? Why do people in hell get their sins punished but people in heaven don't? How can guilty people escape punishment? If a judge in court today did not punish a law breaker we would cry, "A great injustice has been done!" So when God doesn't punish your sins, how has an injustice not been done?

Why did Allah say this?

Isa.53

4 Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows; yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.

5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities; the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.

6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and Jehovah hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.

How do you interpret that?

MA: "If I have sins, and I do, only God can question me and therefore He only knows if I will go to heaven or not."


PM: I didn't ask you whether God know you'll go to heaven. That's an uninteresting claim to tell us that an all-knowing being knows something.

I asked how you can know that you're going to heaven.

I also asked you on what basis you can say that Allah will allow you to stay in heaven?

MA: "But in the Holy Quran and even the tampered-with bible He promises those who don't ascribe mercy and Heavens."

PM: Despite the fact that I don't understand this sentence, why would you say the Bible has been tampered with? What proof do you have of this? And, an embarrassing sura for the Muslim is sura 10:94.. In this sura we read:

"But if you are in doubt as to what We have revealed to you, ask those who read the Book before you; certainly the truth has come to you from your Lord, therefore you should not be of the disputers.”

What we have here, then, is Muhammad telling people who doubted the veracity of his teachings to ask those who had the book before him (Jews and Christians) if what he was teaching was true. The problem here is that since the texts we have today are substantially the same as the manuscripts circulating in Muhammad's day, we would have Muhammad directing questioners to a corrupted text! If the Bible had been corrupted then why would Muhammad send his followers to verify his teachings from a corrupted text? This sura, then, testifies to an uncorrupted Bible.

This is not some isolated text, either. The Qur'an claims "Before thee, also, the apostles We sent were but men, to whom We granted inspiration: If ye realize this not, ask of those who posses the message” (sura 21:7). But those who “possessed the message” back then just happened “to posses” the same “message” that we posses today. There is simply not one shred of evidence testifying that a Bible completely foreign to the Bible we posses today was the Bible used by Christians in Muhammad’s day.

MA: "To those who asked about the Hadith and the Holy Quran or question them let's see the facts. Historians cannot even authenticate the existence of Prophet Jesus [GPUH] and let's be objective about it."


PM: There's some huge problems here:

i. Sorry if I don't take your word for it that historians cannot even authenticate the existence of Jesus. Do you have any actual arguments to back this claim up?

ii. Your argument is fallacious. You can't defend your books by pointing to (supposed) errors in other books. For even if I can't authenticate the existence of Jesus that does not magically take away the problems I raised for the Qur'an.

iii. Really, I don't think you've even attempted to read what I wrote in my post on Islam.

MA: "How is it logical that God leaves the whole universe without a ruler and comes down on a tiny planet that might not count in His eyes or is, with all it's contents, more tiny than ant to us just to let a bunch of crooks kick him around and humiliate him, and at the end murder him?"

PM: Well, you're confusing being able to understand something with it's being illogical. Show me the laws of logic violated by the hypostatic union.

Secondly, you show the typical Muslim ignorance and confusion. When the second person the trinity took on a human nature, that does not mean there was no God at the time.

Third, the Bible tells why God would let a "couple of crooks kick him around."

Isa.53

4 Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows; yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.

5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities; the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.

6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and Jehovah hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.

7 He was oppressed, yet when he was afflicted he opened not his mouth; as a lamb that is led to the slaughter, and as a sheep that before its shearers is dumb, so he opened not his mouth.

8 By oppression and judgment he was taken away; and as for his generation, who among them considered that he was cut off out of the land of the living for the transgression of my people to whom the stroke was due?

9 And they made his grave with the wicked, and with a rich man in his death; although he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth.

10 Yet it pleased Jehovah to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of Jehovah shall prosper in his hand.

11 He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by the knowledge of himself shall my righteous servant justify many; and he shall bear their iniquities.

12 Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he poured out his soul unto death, and was numbered with the transgressors: yet he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.

Who is this man called ?

Isa. 9

6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given; and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

7 Of the increase of his government and of peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to establish it, and to uphold it with justice and with righteousness from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of Jehovah of hosts will perform this.

Who sits upon the throne of David?

What do the "inspired apostles" (sura 21:7)say about Jesus?

Luke 2:32 "He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High; and the Lord God will give Him the throne of His father David;

MA: "What mercy is in that for us? How did such illogical sequence of fictional events clean our sins?

PM: The mercy is that the "iniquity" was laid upon Jesus and not us, where it should have been laid. Where is your iniquity laid upon?

Second, show how this "sequence of events" is "illogical."

Third, why does "Allah" say? "WITHOUT THE SHEDDING OF BLOOD THERE IS NO REMISSION." Jesus' blood was shed, therefore, there is remission. Now, I've given a logical argument. Tell me, if you can, how can your sins be cleansed, and Allah still remain holy.

MA: "Such stuff can only be found in cartoons. Humanity needs a more convincing story."


PM: What, like the story in the hadiths that Satan farts so he won't hear the call to prayer? Or, maybe you meant the story that tells us that Satan stays in our noses at night? Or perhaps you were thinking of the Qur’anic miracle that says Muhammad cut the moon in half with a sword?

MA: "If this story was true, then why nothing has changed? What in humanity's or earth's norm has changed? Tell me facts."

PM: This is pretty vague? This rhetorical question, beggs the question! People have been forgiven. They've been brought from death to life. Jesus did what Adam couldn't, thus imputing his righteousness to us. That's why "Allah" said this about Him,

Jer. 23:6 In his days Judah will be saved, and Israel will dwell securely. And this is the name by which he will be called: 'The LORD is our righteousness.'

All power has been given to Jesus. His name is above all names. He's the final revelation from God (cf. Hebrews 1). Plenty has changed.

The Bible needed to be given in the vulgar languages so people could hear about Jesus, this eventually led to the invention of the printing press.

People needed to learn how to read and think so that they could understand the Bible and read it for themselves. They needed to learn how to exposit the Bible, the original languages, and how to apply logic to it, this led to the institution of the Universities.

Read, for example, "What if Jesus had never been born" by D. James Kennedy. Plenty has "changed" because of Jesus.

MA: "Islam says there is this One God who send reminders to all of humanity in different forms and shapes."


PM: Yeah, and I showed how this claim was the death nail for Islam. The Bible contradicts the Qur'an, thus "Allah" contradicts himself. If you say the bible has been corrupted, then your argument is with Muhhammad in sura 10:94, not me.

MA: "It says that who wants salvation needs to work for it added to believing in God."

PM: How can you ever be sure you've done enough work?

How can you force God to reward you for your work. What if he decides to up the bar just before you die? How can you be sure that even if you do the work Allah will reward you, he's not just. If he's just then he must punish your sins.

Lastly, why would "Allah" accept your works. For he says through the prophet Isaiah,

"All of us have become like one who is unclean, and all our righteous acts are like filthy rags" (Isa. 64:6)

Don't you see? Allah himself, according to you, says that all your good works are considered as filthy before him!

God tells us that "if we keep his commandments" then we can dwell with him. He doesn't say that if we keep some of his commandments we can dwell with him and he‘ll let the others slide! God is perfect and requires perfection. His eyes are too holy to look upon sin. If you break some commandments, you pay the price!

MA: "God has set these rules and He is the first One to respect them and enforce them."

PM: God has not only set the rules, but he has set the punishment for the rules! If he does not always punish sin how can you say he "respects" and "enforces" the rules? Who pays the punishment for your (admitted) sin? Remember, "Allah" said that WITHOUT THE SHEDDING OF BLOOD THERE IS NO REMISSION."

MA: "Not all the jesuses or muhammeds in the world can save you."

PM: Oh, but you and your filthy works can save you?

MA: "If jesus was god and the salvation then what about the people before jesus? Who saved them?"

PM: What about them? They were saved the same way as people are saved today. The old testament sacrifices were foreshadows of Christ's sacrifice. They looked ahead to Christ, we look back.

The "inspired" apostles say this,

"By faith Moses, when he had grown up, refused to be called the son of Pharaoh's daughter, choosing rather to endure ill-treatment with the people of God than to enjoy the passing pleasures of sin, considering the reproach of Christ greater riches than the treasures of Egypt; for he was looking to the reward" (Heb 11:24-26).

Indeed, the Old Testament spoke of Jesus. Since you believe Jesus was a prophet, and prophets cannot lie, then here's what your prophet says of the Taurat, Psalms, and prophets,

Luke 24: 26 He said to them, "How foolish you are, and how slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken! 26 Did not the Christ have to suffer these things and then enter his glory?" 27 And beginning with Moses and all the Prophets, he explained to them what was said in all the Scriptures concerning himself.

So, was Jesus lying? If so, then the Qur’an is wrong. If not, then the Qur’an is wrong.

If you say this is part of a corrupted text then (a) the burden is on you to show this and (b) your argument is with Muhammad who in sura 10:94 says that the text was not corrupted.

MA: "If God's plan for us was to be one nation and believe the same thing then why are we different?If there was only one way for salvation then why is it only a bunch of drunks get it?! What about the other nations?

PM: Who said that "God wants us to be one nation and believe the same thing?" Why do you attack straw men?

There is only one way of salvation.

It is false to say that "only drunks are getting in." Murderers, gang members, adulterers, hypocrites, self-righteous folk, thieves, and every other kind of criminal in God's universe, is getting in!

Jesus came to save sinners, not the righteous. You can trust in your own works, "but as for me and my house, we'll trust in Jesus." It is He who is "the author and finisher of our faith."

36 comments:

  1. The upshot here is:

    My god is better than your god, so there!

    Now reach for your muskets and settle this the only way open to both sides.

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  2. Yeah Ted! You showed these religious dummies!

    Mother Nature is better, so there!

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  3. Ted, this is Fred. It's not clear why you'd say that using "muskets" is the "only" way open for both sides to be able to resolve their conflicting truth claim. Can you please elaborate?

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  4. "Islam says there is this One God who send reminders to all of humanity in different forms and shapes."

    So did Manicheanism. This claim proves nothing more than Mohammed likely got some of his views from the Manicheans of his day. Nice try, though.

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  5. As always, great work, Paul.

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  6. Thank you for your time and effort. I am afraid once again I need to stress the reading part. You need to read the muslim interpritations of all these Suras. Because you must agree that anything taken out of context could mean just about anything just like:

    “Drink ye all of it, for this is my blood of the new covenant; poured out for many, for the forgiveness of sins” [Matt. 26:27].

    Then we should interpret this verse as jesus promoting drunkard and drunk driving if we will take it the way you quoted the Holy Quran.

    I started randomly with a good verse though. Would God order people to lose their minds and get drunk? If wine was god's blood then we should worship grapes. Wait then we're drinking god's blood too! Does that make wine drinkers vampires? Wow I already like this religion. What in God's name are you guys promoting?! What are you telling us? Salvation goes through getting drunk?! Salvation goes through drinking god's blood?!

    I would like to tell you that that verse from the Holy Quran was directed to Prphet Muhammed directly and only to him and it does not direct him to what you were wishing for which you spilled on this page. Instead he was told to go to test his data which he recieved from God against their's, and this might surprize you, the difference is what he was looking for here not an agreement. But what was more surprizing was that they came to the Prophet [PBUH] for guidance and to test him sometimes.

    I do not have enough time to go through every point you think you made but I will tell you this. I will respond little by little every day.

    Until tomorrow just remember that Islam is the fastest growing religion on earth. Remember that Muhammed is the most popular name on earth. Remember that Islam is the most faught and agressed against religion on earth. And remember that Allah [TWT] promised that His chosen religion (Islam) will enter every house and reach every corner in the planet by means of those who support it and those who don't and it'd happening ;)

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  7. The Holy Quran explains itself in any language because it is the Word of God who created all languages. And it is a word which God [TWT] protected from weaknesses in men's hearts unlike the others. No muslim would even dare change a letter in the Holy Quran for they won't succeed niether will they be able to live with the guilt and it will be caught. There were attempts by enemies of Islam to circulate a tampered-with version of the Holy Quran and irony has it that most attempts were discovered and stopped by blind men who knew the Holy Quran by heart. It is the work of God. He said in the Holy Quran that He has revealed it and that He will protect it.

    Oh indeed I explained what that Holy Verse from the Holy Quran refers to and I even directed you to the right source that will clarify any confusion regards the Holy Verse. Read what I said carefully please. But once again you prove that you just want to follow blindly without using your mind or heart. A muslim knows all about it and you will never be able to shift them away from the meaning of the Holy Verse at hand or any other Holy Verse.

    Indeed you try to twist the meaning of the Holy Verse as to where it looks like we should follow you. "Ask" is not "follow"!!! If the reader has any logic they would automatically think that it is impossible that someone tells you to do something and tells you to do the opposite, and at the same time!!! I asked you to use logic and not belittle the minds of the readers. Allah (theGod in Arabic) orders us to worship Him only and not to ascribe to Him [TWT]. We muslims say: There is no god but God, and Muhammed is the messenger of God. How do you want the reader to think that a Quran that says only that and nothing else but that would tell us to go follow the opposite to that? Where's the logic here? The flaw is in your interpritation itself which is deliberate. Islam is a complete system. You take anything out of context and it would be just any other words said by just anyone. That's part of the Quran's perfectness.

    On the other hand you guys say: there are many gods it depends on the mood, can be jesus or god or jehovah or the holy spirit or all of them or half of them or non of them (ie. mother nature) or the sun or the moon or mars or the dollar, etc...!!!!!!!!!!!

    What God [TWT] meant in this Holy Verse is something you can find everywhere in the Muslim literature and in the books of Tafsir (ie. translation or clarification of the Holy Quran). I urge you to go look it up and this should be a great start and a beginning for forming the right opinion about Islam and its teachings.

    Now the way I see it is, you are trying to drag the argument over this point in order to avoid the logic in what I said previously eventhough this is the second time I provide an answer. I have many questions for you that are not as lenghthy as the ones you provided for me and are less boring to the reader from a detail point of view. Add to that they are logical and to the point. And they don't require anyone to open any books or dig in references. They just require an open mind and a clean one; might I add :)

    I mean why get into detail when the title of the book is so clear; both books I might add ;)

    Who is God? Who is jesus? Who is the Holy Spirit? How many gods do you worship? How did "god" allow the jews to torture and kill "him"? Who brought "god" back to life after "he" died? When "god was dead for a couple of days" who governed all of this we see around us and took care of all of the universe? Who ruled the universe when "god" was busy trying to convince the jews on earth? Howcome the ones "he" came to convince and save were the main ones who did not listen to "him"? If "god" was at a point human doesn't that make us equal?! If God is not bound by anything (ex. a time and a place, etc...) like Islam says then how does Christianity bound "god" by a time, a place, and even a level of strenght/power?! If jesus was "god" and the salvation then what happens to the people from Adam until jesus's time (who saved those guys)? If jesus came to wipe out our sins then why do you go to church, pay for charity, feed the poor, fast, pray, or even make mension of "him" (for everything was taken care of by "him") or why even preache to me?! If jesus came to wipe out our sins then why is there still killing, stealing, fornicating, adultring, wars, famins, etc...? Did jesus go to the bathroom, get sick, sleep, get hungry, walk in the markets and roam the streets, etc...? Aren't these the characteristics of a human?!

    And the lists go on :)

    I challange anyone to answer these questions logically. If you can't answer them logically and you CANNOT possibly answer them with logic then fear the God of all; the God of Muhammed [PBUH], the God of Jesus [PBUH], theGod (ie. Allah) the Creator. The God who promised terrible torture for your likes in the hereafter. Remember that you worship a dead man and that God never dies ;)

    Until tomorrow just remember that Islam is the fastest growing religion on earth. Remember that Muhammed is the most popular name on earth. Remember that Islam is the most faught and agressed against religion on earth. And remember that Allah [TWT] promised that His chosen religion (Islam) will enter every house and reach every corner in the planet by means of those who support it and those who don't and it's happening ;)

    And that's what makes you attack Islam...

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  8. The Holy Quran explains itself in any language because it is the Word of God who created all languages. And it is a word which God [TWT] protected from weaknesses in men's hearts unlike the others. No muslim would even dare change a letter in the Holy Quran for they won't succeed niether will they be able to live with the guilt and it will be caught. There were attempts by enemies of Islam to circulate a tampered-with version of the Holy Quran and irony has it that most attempts were discovered and stopped by blind men who knew the Holy Quran by heart. It is the work of God. He said in the Holy Quran that He has revealed it and that He will protect it.

    Oh indeed I explained what that Holy Verse from the Holy Quran refers to and I even directed you to the right source that will clarify any confusion regards the Holy Verse. Read what I said carefully please. But once again you prove that you just want to follow blindly without using your mind or heart. A muslim knows all about it and you will never be able to shift them away from the meaning of the Holy Verse at hand or any other Holy Verse.

    Indeed you try to twist the meaning of the Holy Verse as to where it looks like we should follow you. "Ask" is not "follow"!!! If the reader has any logic they would automatically think that it is impossible that someone tells you to do something and tells you to do the opposite, and at the same time!!! I asked you to use logic and not belittle the minds of the readers. Allah (theGod in Arabic) orders us to worship Him only and not to ascribe to Him [TWT]. We muslims say: There is no god but God, and Muhammed is the messenger of God. How do you want the reader to think that a Quran that says only that and nothing else but that would tell us to go follow the opposite to that? Where's the logic here? The flaw is in your interpritation itself which is deliberate. Islam is a complete system. You take anything out of context and it would be just any other words said by just anyone. That's part of the Quran's perfectness.

    On the other hand you guys say: there are many gods it depends on the mood, can be jesus or god or jehovah or the holy spirit or all of them or half of them or non of them (ie. mother nature) or the sun or the moon or mars or the dollar, etc...!!!!!!!!!!!

    What God [TWT] meant in this Holy Verse is something you can find everywhere in the Muslim literature and in the books of Tafsir (ie. translation or clarification of the Holy Quran). I urge you to go look it up and this should be a great start and a beginning for forming the right opinion about Islam and its teachings.

    Now the way I see it is, you are trying to drag the argument over this point in order to avoid the logic in what I said previously eventhough this is the second time I provide an answer. I have many questions for you that are not as lenghthy as the ones you provided for me and are less boring to the reader from a detail point of view. Add to that they are logical and to the point. And they don't require anyone to open any books or dig in references. They just require an open mind and a clean one; might I add :)

    I mean why get into detail when the title of the book is so clear; both books I might add ;)

    Who is God? Who is jesus? Who is the Holy Spirit? How many gods do you worship? How did "god" allow the jews to torture and kill "him"? Who brought "god" back to life after "he" died? When "god was dead for a couple of days" who governed all of this we see around us and took care of all of the universe? Who ruled the universe when "god" was busy trying to convince the jews on earth? Howcome the ones "he" came to convince and save were the main ones who did not listen to "him"? If "god" was at a point human doesn't that make us equal?! If God is not bound by anything (ex. a time and a place, etc...) like Islam says then how does Christianity bound "god" by a time, a place, and even a level of strenght/power?! If jesus was "god" and the salvation then what happens to the people from Adam until jesus's time (who saved those guys)? If jesus came to wipe out our sins then why do you go to church, pay for charity, feed the poor, fast, pray, or even make mension of "him" (for everything was taken care of by "him") or why even preache to me?! If jesus came to wipe out our sins then why is there still killing, stealing, fornicating, adultring, wars, famins, etc...? Did jesus go to the bathroom, get sick, sleep, get hungry, walk in the markets and roam the streets, etc...? Aren't these the characteristics of a human?!

    And the lists go on :)

    I challange anyone to answer these questions logically. If you can't answer them logically and you CANNOT possibly answer them with logic then fear the God of all; the God of Muhammed [PBUH], the God of Jesus [PBUH], theGod (ie. Allah) the Creator. The God who promised terrible torture for your likes in the hereafter. Remember that you worship a dead man and that God never dies ;)

    Until tomorrow just remember that Islam is the fastest growing religion on earth. Remember that Muhammed is the most popular name on earth. Remember that Islam is the most faught and agressed against religion on earth. And remember that Allah [TWT] promised that His chosen religion (Islam) will enter every house and reach every corner in the planet by means of those who support it and those who don't and it's happening ;)

    And that's what makes you attack Islam...

    ReplyDelete
  9. hostus twinkius9/24/2006 12:32 AM

    Anonymous Muslim,

    In all of your questions you are assuming unitarianism because in your thinking God could not have taken upon Himself flesh and could not have become a man. Is the incarnation impossible for God? Your problem is that you get the Trinity all mixed up and you're confused. We serve and worship one God, for the Lord our God is One. He is also Three Persons, God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit. Three Persons--One God. This does not fit into your little "logic" box because this God was not made up by the little brains of men. This God revealed Himself to His people through the Word made flesh--even Jesus Christ the Righteous One. You serve some arbitrary and capricious God who is not just, who may choose to allow some undeserving sinners into heaven on a whim and may not allow others depending on what "mood" he is in. You have no grounds to believe that you are forgiven for you have no bloody sacrifice, no sinless Savior that died for you. You actually sound like a Jehovah's Witness with all your Trinity confusion. God the Father was in heaven when God the Son walked the earth, you continually get the distinct Persons of the Trinity confused with each other.

    Further, your other questions have been answered by Paul Manata. For example, he has already addressed your question about the state of those Old Testament saints that lived before the birth of Christ.
    We pray, go to church, etc. because we love God and want to worship Him and obey His commandments. What kind of a question is that? We don't do it to gain merits so that we can please Him with our own righteousness. We have no righteousness except that which has been given us in Christ Jesus.

    We attack Islam because it is a false religion. We do the same to any false religion, Islam is no better than any other one. You still haven't answered the questions posed to you by Paul Manata. You keep mentioning "logic" and I've yet to see any come from you. All I've seen is an ignorance of Christianity, an ignorance of your own "holy" book, and some emotional tripe. If you want to respond because your position is so strong, please do so with a point by point refutation of Manata's post. Quote your book, quote the Bible, refute the arguments with "logic". One thing is sure, you should understand an opposing position before you attempt to refute it. Otherwise you look pretty foolish...

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  10. hostus twinkius9/24/2006 12:44 AM

    I should also add that Biblical Christianity does not attack Islam with the sword, but with the Word of the Living God. The Crusades were not the actions of Christians, so don't go there. Biblical Christians do not kill people for not believing in God, nor do they kill people even for blaspheming God, as vengeance is the Lord's and He will repay the transgressor. He doesn't need gun-toting jihadis to vindicate His name or to show forth His anger. We pray for the ignorant and lost, we pray for our enemies and seek to overcome evil with good. You however kill the infidel, behead the unbelieving, and strike the enemy. Islam is morally bankrupt...

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  11. I urge you to not quote any book or reference on earth and to speak mind to mind. Don't push yourselves into the corner you cannot handle which is quoting
    books. If your house is of glass don't throw rocks at people.

    I haven't quoted the Holy Quran or the many currupted scriptures you have and if I start doing that it won't be a pleasant seen. You all have read the

    sample in Matt. 26:27 I used earlier.

    Now let's talk logic and brain to brain. I challange all the chritians here and all over the world to come up with answers that can fit in brains and in

    hearts. I want answers that are logical and clear. Try to use your head not what your pope(s) wrote with his own hands in order to sit on an endless

    treaure which can feed the whole world 70 times if shared and in order to enjoy more money and givings from blinded people from all over the world just so he

    can sit on a thrown not even the worst monarchs and dictators on the face of earth can ever afford. And what's in hiding is even worse. Wake up people.

    Your religion is a wealth generating machine for such crooks who lead you by the necks blind foldedly to your inescapable fate. You feel it. You know it.

    But that's besides the point :)

    Answer this (I am looking for logic here remember):

    Who is the christian god?
    1. The Creator (ie TheGod of all).
    2. Jesus.
    3. The holy spirit.

    I challange the whole christian world to answer this question ;)

    Until you do answer **it won't ever happen lol** remember that:

    Islam is the fastest growing religion on earth. Remember that Muhammed is the most popular name on earth. Remember that Islam is the most faught and agressed

    against religion on earth. And remember that Allah [TWT] promised that His chosen religion (Islam) will enter every house and reach every corner in the

    planet by means of those who support it and those who don't and it's happening ;)

    And that's what makes you attack Islam...

    ps. It doesn't matter how it's growing .. hehe .. the fact remains it's growing faster. And in Africa we all know what the white anglosaxon christian did
    to locals so let's not go there. But it's not true that Islam is passing away in Africa. If you mean under the guns of the French and the English then we

    agree and point is made in favor of Islam :)

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  12. Weakness as expected! :) You guys attack me but I'm no better than God who you attack everyday with every breath you take by saying he is three and two or more or less. That's what's missing in your fiction; for you to say god is zero meaning nobody. That's what's left.

    Try to think instead.

    You still fail to see that you are ascribing to God [TWT]. Three do not make one. Otherwise we won't have any math or physics or chemistry and the world would be a salad and we won't be here!

    You need to answer my question. Who is the christian god?
    1. God.
    2. jesus.
    3. the holy spirit.

    I need logic. The reader needs it. Don't attack our brains. Instead talk to them. Don't refer to the lies they fed you since childhood. Use your brain. Talk to my brain. How on earth does it sit in your mind that three == one ?!!!

    I tell you if you're sure about your fate when you go to meet God and you are sure that your religion is the true religion then wish to die right now so that you stop your suffering down here on earth and stop having to put up with all this.

    You need to see a religion doctor for the severe case of religious astigmatism and worst crossed eyed case in the history of humanity ;)

    I feel for you and I know you know the truth deep inside but you hide it. Islam does not need people that cannot reason and this is a great evidence. That's why you are still where you are. I know you wish you hurt because it's impossible to fight logic. Just go take a pill before you go to bed tonight or drink some Alcohol. You're used to it :)

    Until you can sleep remember:

    Until you do answer **it won't ever happen lol** remember that:

    Islam is the fastest growing religion on earth. Remember that Muhammed is the most popular name on earth. Remember that Islam is the most faught and agressed

    against religion on earth. And remember that Allah [TWT] promised that His chosen religion (Islam) will enter every house and reach every corner in the

    planet by means of those who support it and those who don't and it's happening ;)

    And that's what makes you attack Islam...

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  13. Who is God? Who is jesus? Who is the Holy Spirit? How many gods do you worship? How did "god" allow the jews to torture and kill "him"? Who brought "god" back to life after "he" died? When "god was dead for a couple of days" who governed all of this we see around us and took care of all of the universe? Who ruled the universe when "god" was busy trying to convince the jews on earth? Howcome the ones "he" came to convince and save were the main ones who did not listen to "him"? If "god" was at a point human doesn't that make us equal?! If God is not bound by anything (ex. a time and a place, etc...) like Islam says then how does Christianity bound "god" by a time, a place, and even a level of strenght/power?! If jesus was "god" and the salvation then what happens to the people from Adam until jesus's time (who saved those guys)? If jesus came to wipe out our sins then why do you go to church, pay for charity, feed the poor, fast, pray, or even make mension of "him" (for everything was taken care of by "him") or why even preache to me?! If jesus came to wipe out our sins then why is there still killing, stealing, fornicating, adultring, wars, famins, etc...? Did jesus go to the bathroom, get sick, sleep, get hungry, walk in the markets and roam the streets, etc...? Aren't these the characteristics of a human?!

    LOGICAL answers please ;)

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  14. christianity says that if someone slaps you turn the other cheek.

    Howcome you guys are slapping back?

    Yet another logical flaw in your fake religion ;)

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  15. hostus twinkius9/25/2006 12:31 AM

    Oh, so we're supposed to let you make false claims about our God and that's turning the other cheek? You just cut and paste your posts and don't appear to have even read what others have written in response to your bogus claims. I can't even take you seriously anymore....

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  16. You have nothing to say to respond to my "false claims" which are logical and to-the-point questions!

    Answer this question. Who is your god? (pick one number)
    1. God
    or
    2. jesus
    or
    3. holy spirit

    Or answer this. Who are Adam's parents? Howcome you don't worship Adam then?

    Or answer this. If jesus was superior to all as in "god" then howcome a woman bore him in her womb?

    Or answer this. If "god" was three then who of them created what? Or what if they disagreed on something?

    Or answer this. If "god" was human at a point then howcome we are not equal with "god"? Aren't all humans equal?

    Or answer this. Howcome you guys don't answer?

    I read all what you guys said and it is evident that I did only if you read what I wrote carefully. The reader would agree I did.

    I don't tell you not to respond. I deliberately tried to get you angry to test and expose the truth before the reader and I was right.

    Your religion says open the other cheek. This means no matter what, you should never agress-against or attack anyone. Period.

    You guys take it personal. I mean don't you see?!

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  17. hostus twinkius9/25/2006 10:09 AM

    Here are your answers....

    Answer this question. Who is your god? (pick one number)
    1. God
    or
    2. jesus
    or
    3. holy spirit

    Answer: The Three are One, God is Trinity-Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. You don't understand this because it doesn't fit into your box of human "logic". You think you can understand the infinite God with your finite understanding.

    Or answer this. Who are Adam's parents? Howcome you don't worship Adam then?

    Answer:

    Adam doesn't have any human parents, he was made by God. Adam was God's son in the sense he was directly created by God. He is not God's son in the sense that Jesus is God's Son, who was begotten--not created. We don't worship Adam because he is not ontologically God--he was only a man.

    Or answer this. If jesus was superior to all as in "god" then howcome a woman bore him in her womb?


    Answer:

    Because He really and truly became a man, and men are born from a woman's womb. Surely you understand this. Again, you are presuming that the incarnation could not possibly have happened. I ask you, is it impossible for God to take upon Himself flesh and become a man while still being ontologically God?

    Or answer this. If "god" was three then who of them created what? Or what if they disagreed on something?

    Answer:

    The one God created all things. The Three are One, so there are no disagreements.

    Or answer this. If "god" was human at a point then howcome we are not equal with "god"? Aren't all humans equal?

    Answer:

    God the Son became man for a reason and with a purpose. We are not equal with God because He became man. Men are not divine, Christ is the unique, the one and only, God-Man. He is the sinless Savior, the Righteous and Holy One.

    Or answer this. Howcome you guys don't answer?

    Answer:

    We have answered, repeatedly. How come you don't answer? You have not answered how it is that your god can be just and still allow sinners into heaven. How is it that you can earn your way into heaven by your own self-righteousness? Is not your religion just a system of "good" works that assumes that men can earn their way into heaven? Why do you contradict the Qu'ran when it testifies to the truth of the Bible? Why are women treated like second class citizens with no face? No rights? Why do your Islamist brethren murder unbelievers and kill those who were created in the image of God? From you we don't hear any answers. I challenge you to answer these questions clearly, I challenge you to answer Paul Manata's post. This you have not done at all. Any objective reader knows this.

    "I don't tell you not to respond. I deliberately tried to get you angry to test and expose the truth before the reader and I was right.

    Your religion says open the other cheek. This means no matter what, you should never agress-against or attack anyone. Period.

    You guys take it personal. I mean don't you see?!"

    It's interesting that you try to tell us what our religion teaches, when you have trouble even understanding your own. You have made clear by your statements you have never studied the Bible and have gotten your knowledge of Christianity from your Muslim friends. Turning the other cheek does not mean Christians are commanded by God to allow other people to abuse us. Nor does it mean, as I've said before, that we don't defend the truth against false religionists like yourself. That is ludicrous. We are to defend the truth once given to the saints. Apparently you've never read the vigorous defense of truth provided by the apostle Paul in the Epistles, or how Christ Himself railed with righteous indignation against the hypocrisy of the religious leaders of His day. Besides that your little ploy is a immature tactic. You don't determine the validity of truth claims based upon someone's behavior, you base it on reason and argumentation--neither of which you have provided. So, if you have intelligent answers we're listening and waiting.........

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  18. hostus twinkius9/25/2006 10:17 AM

    It's also interesting that you accuse us of taking your attacks against Christ personally. We are Christians, do you think we should take attacks against our Lord and Savior as simply disagreements about theological matters? Do you take attacks on Mohammad personally? It sounds like the angry masses across the Middle East do. People get hurt and property gets destroyed just because of some cartoons. What hypocrisy!

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  19. My comments are not attacks. They are simply mental workouts. I didn't say Jesus [PBUH] was a terrorist like the pope called prophet Muhammed [PBUH]. Instead I respect Jesus [PBUH] more than you do and ask you to respect him and not claim he is something which he is not. I ask you to stop saying things about his mom and we all know what the claims are from the fabricated bible.

    We muslims are different from you. We don't worship Muhammed [PBUH]. We don't say salvation is through Muhammed [PBUH] or through anyone else. We don't say God [TWT] was three and Muhammed [PBUH] was one of them. Tell me how or when in the course of what I said I disrespected prophet Jesus [PBUH].

    Islam is clear in what it asks you to do. We don't want you to be muslims. If you become muslims that's great and it's for your own good. But we don't say that you guys are nothing either. All we ask you to say is:

    There is no god but God, and that Jesus was the servant and the prophet/messenger of God.

    We muslims acknowledge that. Do you? No. Instead you worship a human who was ****sent**** by Allah (theGod) ie. God, the Creator and then died.

    How did muslims attack the pope for the pope to attack Islam?! Why would he attack the muslims? We are peaceful people. Show me the muslim troops in Europe! Show me the muslim troops in America! On the other hand you all know where bush's army is and where the rest of your armies and troops are.

    What happened to the "other cheek" huh? Who is the hypocrit, huh .. huh?

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  20. First of all. The Holy Quran states clearly on different occasions and all over that the bible at hand is a set of lies and fabrications and is not the real and origional Holy Bible. God simply did not protect it. Where does it state in this bible that He will protect the bible. In the Holy Quran God says clearly that He has revealed it and that He will protect it.

    If you are in doubt of it then try to compose a verse like it. You won't be able to match the perfection in all the elements. So fear the God of the Quran when you can't match it's verses!!!

    The answers you gave are, sorry to say this, a joke. How does three equal one? There is only one logic on earth and everywhere in the universe for there is one Creator who made this logic. Otherwise a circuit that makes up a computer in my machine would make a chair in yours and then we wont have a conversation. I said think! I don't agree that God will go down to equate Himself with His own creation. How do you judge and reason? If you truly believe that nothing or no one is like God then you shouldn't say this. How do you think?! God cannot be killed or captured. What are you guys saying?! If you truly believe this then are you sure you're going to heaven? I doubt it.

    Save yourselves. Open your minds and stop attacking a clear thinking brain. Three are not one. One is one :) If your best friend came and claimed your identity you will be angry and will never forget that friend. You both are human and this would be the case. Then fear God who knows everything and knows that His messenger did NOT tell you he was a "god" or anyone else but a servant of God.

    Think. If Islam was fake then howcome it prevailed over all.

    We are a nation that sleeps but doesn't die. Just don't wake us up. We did not attack your religion first. You know it very well. Instead you did attack ours. So be careful. We are all willing to give our lives in the path of God.

    As for women, we respect women and that shows utmost ignorance with regards to how we treat our women. First of all they choose to cover up so that they don't fall an easy prey for sick-hearted men who don't fear God. Second of all our women are moms and housewives who are protected by their men from sick people who just want to get in their pants and dump them to deal with a baby and a sad future. Our women want to preserve themselves for one man only so that they don't end up like prostitutes getting a taste of every man they can get their hands on just like most of your women. Simply our women are more knowledgable and more mature and know how to build a family and keep it intact. Your women? You can't tell a normal one from a prostitute!!! Short skirts, skanky looks, corrupted self image, and the list goes on.

    Your whole society is sick and unhealthy so let's not open this subject. Why would a child go open fire on his peers at school huh? Howcome men are abused by women and beat up? Howcome the divorce rate used to be very high and now not even that; instead the marriage rate is getting very scarse. Howcome you allow gay marriages in your societies? Howcome you throw the elderly in the streets? Howcome you disrespect women by chasing them like animals in the streets? Howcome you leave a sick person to die if they don't have insurance?

    Again if your house is made of glass don't throw rocks at others :)

    If you think you answered my questions logically then we don't have a conversation. We rather have a blind group who think they see things but they don't.

    I will not stop though. I know some hearts could be clean.

    Islam will prevail ;)

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  21. To my dear brothers and sisters in humanity all over the world who are reading these words. I invite you as a surrenderer to God to embrace Islam (Submission or Surrendering). If you do God will reword you twice the reward and He can increase it by doubles to those whome He so chooses. If you don't then be my witnesses that I have, as one of the Muslems, convieghed to you the message the Prophet of God has recieved from God as mercy for all people and as a light and a guide to shield from the woes of a terrible day when money and children won't save a wrong man or woman. If you refuse and reject then you only harm yourselves and God does not rely on or need you to feed, shelter or help Him; all praise be to Him [PBTH]. And God is Greater and is Most Merciful. And Allah [TWT] theGod does not wrong people. It is what we do that will decide our fate along with coming to God with a clean and clear heart.

    Embrace Islam and you will become as clean from any sin or bad deed you committed as you were the day you were born.

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  22. hostus twinkius9/26/2006 3:48 PM

    Anonymous Muslim,

    Your above tirades are against a secular American society--not a Christian one. Christian women are chaste and pure and modest in their apparel in accordance with the holy Scriptures. The Pope is not ours, he is an abomination to God. Christ commanded that His disciples be baptized in the Name (singular) of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit (three persons). He did not command them to be baptized in the Name of God, a prophet, and a force. These Three are One. You don't understand it because you have such a high view of your intellect. I exhort you to get your understanding of Christianity from the Bible, not your imam. Repent of your sin, turn to Christ, lest you perish. This discussion is at an end...

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  23. hostus twinkius9/26/2006 4:22 PM

    As far as your claim that God didn't protect and preserve His Word, consult Isaiah 40:8, "The grass withers, the flower fades,
    but the word of our God stands forever."

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  24. Oh really? Tell me how many new bibles have been composed as we speak for new versions of christianity which we see coming out every 5 seconds. And you know what confuses most about the whole thing? It is that each newer version dismisses the older and completely negates the origional one as if Jesus came to them and not to the oldest one!

    Isaiah 40:8, "The grass withers, the flower fades,
    but the word of our God stands forever." refers to the Holy Quran simply because it's, logically and scientifically backed with historical evidance that the Holy Quran, but not the Holy Bible, was proven documented word for word and preserved as it came intact until this day while the alleged bible does not. Sorry but it was tampered with. It negates itself every few alleged verses or negates the human nature in it's entirety (ex. a child wants to drink milk not wine)!!!

    And "a secular American society--not a Christian one"? Then show me a christian society! Or better yet howcome "a secular American society" is made of a majority of christians? Where is the flaw? Or to be more clear, who are those "secular American society"?

    If they are christians then do they not count? If they are not christians then what are we talking about? Why are you casting them away from a Utopian and imaginary society--"a Christian one"?!

    So back to logic again. You mean to tell me that 13 hijackers labeled all muslems and Islam as being terrorists while a whole nation that dresses provocatively and wears a cross are not looking like prostitutes and are not christian!

    Hmm .. aught we think about things sometimes!

    If I have any pride it's in God and in what He taught me not in a selfish thing. I don't have any pride as me as a person who sinned and erred and I am no better thinking or in my humanity than any of us. All I said was refrasing what God has said to all of us in my poor and humble way. I want nothing from you or me except to use what God has given us from logic and mind and wisdom to identify the true God who created and was never accompanied. We need to see God with our brains because I don't see Him with my eyes. My brain tells me that the Creator can never be like anything. I can never imagine Him even especially that He is Most Prfect.

    I am sorry, or maybe not, but I can never worship a human being. I refuse to worship someone equal to and like me. I refuse to worship a human who died. I refuse to worship a human ar anyone or thing else besides the One who made/created me.

    I only worship only God. I am a muslem.

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  25. hostus twinkius9/28/2006 10:06 AM

    Christ said, "blessed are those who keep from stumbling over Me", that is, that keep from stumbling over the truth of who He is as both God and man. We don't worship a "man", we worship the Son of God who became a man. The Bible doesn't refer to the Qu'ran as it didn't exist when the verse in Isaiah was written. You do not understand the Biblical doctrine of inspiration, and you don't understand translations either. No current translation supercedes any other, and the manuscripts the translations are from have not changed. So your point doesn't hold water. As far as your Muslim hijacker statements, those rats did what they did in obedience (as they saw it) to their god from the Qu'ran. If American women dress like prostitutes they show by this they are not Christian women, and they did not get their manner of dress from Scripture. Again, your point doesn't hold water. A majority of Americans may profess to be "Christians" because of western culture, however, as I've said over and over, a Christian is defined by the Bible--someone is not a Christian necessarily because they say they are or think that they are. In order to be a Christian (to use your prostitute example) a woman must repent of sexual immorality and all the provocative dress, etc. that goes with it. Understand? I'm I clear? You continue to display your ignorance of Christianity--please stop trying to refute something you don't understand. Study the Scriptures and learn, and use "logic". You must recognize that what you are taught about Christianity as a Muslim is not correct. Please consider what I say....

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  26. God refers to the Holy Quran because He revealed the original Holy Bible and because He knows the future and because the Holy Quran is the final word of God which He vowed to save and protect. Whoever it was that tampered with original Holy Bible knew this and kept the verse so he cansupport the new fabricated text.

    God is and was and will never be a man or have a son or a wife or any form of relative or companion. Otherwise "god" will be just one of us!!!

    You tell us that there is no one or nothing is like God then howcome you say "he" was human at a point?!

    If that's true that jesus was "him" then howcome only appeared at a non-significant point in time and as someone not important?! Or who is Moses? What did Moses say; "worship Jesus"?! What did all of the other Prophets say?

    I don't worship a human. I refuse to worship a human. God is never human. You make a car but that does not make you a car!!!

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  27. The "rat hijackers" .. lol .. are nothing but a manufacture of the american government. Afterall they were "freedom fighters" just yesterday! You don't know who they are obeying. I don't know who they are obeying. Did you get in their heads or did you ask any of them. It's amzing how you shoot from the hip always. Wow who told you this? Bush? I guess if he told you they are god tomorrow they will be god .. lol.

    As for the american women, those who dress like prositutes wear crosses too and pray to jesus. Oh they must be muslems ;) Great work man. Great work.

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  28. I wonder still who "god" is to you! You guys are very confusing! I ask you who God is and you say "he" is so many different things and people and objects and spirits and... I think you are more confused than I am about it.

    I'll tell you this. How about you look up to the sky and say: "anon. says I'm wrong. But I say I'm right. If anon. is right then hit me with a commit and kill me. But if anon. is wrong then do it to him!!!"

    You won't ever have the guts to do such a thing because you know your religion is a fake and so is your faith ;)

    Once you established that, you need to look deep inside and make a search for the truth. Don't surrender to god (ie. become a Muslem) just please ask yourself this: "If I were GOD would I want to share my Glory and my Might and want my servants to worship someone else?"

    I don't say you are bad or ignorant. I just want you to see the light I see and enjoy the faith, so deap and rooted, that I feel and enjoy. I wish you could go to bed at night put your head on the pillow and feel the joy and safety deep inside that you can sleep alone in the desert not fearing anything. Of course you'll only fear God. I mean you fear God as in not do anything He has forbidden you knowing and believing that He sees you eventhough you don't.

    If you believe you will only help yourself and God doesn't need you. If you don't you'll only harm yourself and God does NOT wrong the servants (ie. people in all backgrounds and believes).

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  29. hostus twinkius10/02/2006 1:25 PM

    Anonymous Muslim Apologist,

    You said:

    "You don't know who they are obeying. I don't know who they are obeying. Did you get in their heads or did you ask any of them. It's amzing how you shoot from the hip always. Wow who told you this? Bush? I guess if he told you they are god tomorrow they will be god .. lol."

    Me: Did they not claim they were doing it for the god of Islam, and that it was justified by his word in the Qu'ran? Does Islam authorize and justify the killing of infidels or not? Yes or no?

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  30. You said: "claim!" Oh, I think you should always keep in mind that people will say things but it does not always match what they intend. This is not a point. I'm sorry!...

    Bush says he fights for freedom and we all have seen what he did in Iraq and Afghnistan! He said something but the actions!

    Where is that freedom in "camp gitmo?" Where is that freedom in Gaza where people elected Hamas? Where is that freedom in Abu Gharib? And the list is long...

    Those "terrorists" were the manufacture of the CIA as they were known as "freedom fighters" as we all know. But what is not clear still is how they became what they are "...", whatever name we wish to call them. Is it still the work of the CIA? I wonder ;)

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  31. hostus twinkius10/03/2006 10:02 AM

    Anon. Muslim Apologist,

    You didn't answer the question. Here it is again:
    Does Islam authorize and justify the killing of infidels or not? Yes or no?

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  32. No. Islam does not authorize the killing of anyone who does not aggress against muslems. Islam does not authorize unjust killing. Islam says clearly everywhere in the Book and the Sunnah that he who killes a soul without a soul intentionally and with evidence should be punished the same way.

    In other words, if I killed someone intentionally from any background or culture while that person did NOT kill a soul intentionally then I should be killed to give others an example and stop those with bad intentions and weak hearts. Just like the jail concept or crime would be the normal way people deal with each other.

    So Islam is against killing the innocent and is for killing those who killed the innocent intentionally. If it were an accident then the punishment in Islam is different for that and it would not be harsh.

    So if you are so concerned with what Islam says in this regard I suggest you go study the Islamic Shariah instead of taking it from distorted views and evil agendas. Islam is clear and is an open book inviting all those who wish to know.

    No. Islam is not promoting the killing of the innocent no matter who they may be. But Islam is promoting JUSTICE. You kill the innocent intentionally, and the accusers have to prove it beyond the shadow of doubt, then you'll be punished by the same deed you committed. That is Islam's position and God knows best.

    What I don't understand though is that Christianity says not to kill, period, but you guys are the biggest killers of all human history! Look at Iraq. Look at Afghanistan. Look at Palestine (American weapons). Look at Japan and the nuclear bombs. Look at Europe in WWII. Look at the crusades. Look at Vietnam. Look at Lebanon. Look at the Red Indians. Look at the inquesitions. Look at South America and what you did to the innocent locals there. Look at Korea. Look at South Africa. Look at the Australian locals. And the list goes on... Those are Christians who did all of that while the bible says no killing, PERIOD!!!

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  33. hostus twinkius10/03/2006 5:07 PM

    The Biblical commandment is that no individual may murder another individual, that is, they may not kill someone for personal vengeance. However, a Christian may defend himself and his family with lethal force, if necessary. Also, the government is given the authority by God to kill the evildoer, it doesn't wield the sword for nothing, but is a terror to evil. So your supposed knowledge of the Bible is lacking...

    After numerous corrections of your errors about who Christians are, you are still repeating the same errors. I don't know how else to say it, all those conflicts you mentioned were not perpetrated by Christians. You keep equating "American" with "Christian" or "Roman Catholic" with "Christian". I tell you that's not true, I explain it, and you keep saying it anyway. Even on a secular level your understanding of those conflicts is dismal at best. If what you say about Islam is true with regard to justice against those who kill innocent people (like the 9/11 hijackers and Abu Musab Al-Zarqawi), where is the voice of righteous indignation coming from the Muslim world? I don't hear it, do you? Regardless, you may have the last word. May the Lord of glory, even Jesus Christ the holy and righteous One, be merciful to you and save you from your sin. May He open the eyes of your understanding, and deliver you from spiritual darkness...

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  34. When all Muslems tell you that Zarqawi represents every last one of them then you may have an argument.

    Bush on the other hand represents the "free world." He uses terms like "crusade, god and faithful," etc... He leads a whole nation and is not sitting in hiding in a cave or a desert somewhere ranting about personal opinions all day long. Bush sends troops, an army, to fight in the name of the new "crusade" to kill and humiliate innocent civilians.

    You support Bush. You are Christian. He is Christian. The army sings "under god," and so the army is Christian. The army is going to a forign land "though shalt NOT tresspass..." The Christian armys is killing (even if terrorists it's still killing) foriegn peoples on their own land. It is Bush's army! Bush is Christian. You support all of it and you are Christian!

    Then howcome you still say they are not Christians who do these things. The pope represents the Catholics. I agree. But the Catholics were Christian before your religion was put together. The Catholics have the right to claim, even, that they are the only and real Christians. Read in history.

    I get your point alright. You mean to tell me that all of Europe was not Christian at the time of WWII or at the time of Hitler or at the time of the dark ages or at the time of the crusades. Oh I forgot that this generation is a Hollywood type generation. I love the broad imagination and pictorial halusinations parade.

    If I were you I'd pray for my own salvation. It is a severe case of directional loss.

    If you want me to pray, Muslems bow down the nose and sit on the floor in humility and they do it 5+ times a day.

    If you want me to believe in Jesus, Muslems believe in Jesus and all the Prophets and messengers of God and they don't descriminate against any or favor one over the other (May God's TWT Prayers and Peace be upon them all).

    If you want me to worship God, Muslems worship ONLY God and they will never call companions with Him TWT (All Praise be to Him theCreator of all).

    If you want me to say someone can commit a crime and get away with it then you have just defined the "god" you worship :)

    And I ask God to show you the way but if not then He is all knowing and is Wiser...

    If you still believe you are right then wish to die now so you can go enjoy Heaven ;)

    But .. we all know you won't!!!

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  35. As for the voice of those who oppose the killing I suggest you try to read more or getting your news from other sourses.

    We do not, at all, agree with support or partake in any of the activity that is so foggy in the world right now. We as Muslems have suffered alot of wronging all over our Islamic world. To prove that we are peaceful people Islam is a very tolerant and merciful religion. If one fourth of the amount of suffering the Muslem nation has suffered throughout the past few decades was experienced by Americans, for instance, I assure you you would see the nuclear bombs flying everywhere.

    Look at Pearl Harbor and compare the reaction. The result was hundreds of thousands of innocent people wiped out in seconds.

    Muslems suffered worse than what happenned in Pearl Harbor by very very very far. Go study the Islamic history and the middle eastern history and see how Muslems haven't used their powers yet and how very tolerent they have been and still are.

    The Palestinian disaster alone destryed millions of homes and killed millions of the innocent. I didn't see the Muslems going into England for retaliation saying that those Christian crusades were the reason Palestine was stolen and it's people murdered in daylight! No Islamic troops were even there to defend the Palestinians to begin with.

    We still haven't used our many powers. Why? Because we believe in love and peace and that one day our fellow human who wronged us will stand and say "I did wrong and I should fix it!"

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