Friday, September 22, 2006

To Our Anonymous Muslim Apologist II

MA responded to my last post on Islam and his defense of it.

Like before, he is MA and I am PM.

MA: "Thank you for your time and effort. I am afraid once again I need to stress the reading part. You need to read the muslim interpritations of all these Suras."

PM: Thank you for your time and effort. I am afraid that once again I need to stress the responding part. You need to eventually respond to all these arguments.

MA: "Because you must agree that anything taken out of context could mean just about anything just like:

“Drink ye all of it, for this is my blood of the new covenant; poured out for many, for the forgiveness of sins” [Matt. 26:27].

Then we should interpret this verse as jesus promoting drunkard and drunk driving if we will take it the way you quoted the Holy Quran."


PM: But even taking this out of context you can't get "drunkenness" and "drunk driving" out of it. So, you can't even get your weird conclusions out of a verse you intended to draw weird conclusions out of!

Second, it is one thing to claim that I've taken the Qur'an out of context and another thing to show it.

MA: "I started randomly with a good verse though. Would God order people to lose their minds and get drunk?"

PM: He doesn't, as you admitted, you took it out of context. And, furthermore, there's nothing about drunkenness in that verse."

MA: "If wine was god's blood then we should worship grapes."

PM: Despite the fact that the non-sequitur, you already admitted you took the verse out of context! Why waste your time writing about a verse you admit was taken out of context?

MA: "I would like to tell you that that verse from the Holy Quran was directed to Prphet Muhammed directly and only to him and it does not direct him to what you were wishing for which you spilled on this page. Instead he was told to go to test his data which he recieved from God against their's, and this might surprize you, the difference is what he was looking for here not an agreement. But what was more surprizing was that they came to the Prophet [PBUH] for guidance and to test him sometimes."

PM:

1) He's talking about sura 10:94.

2) It doesn't matter if it was directed toward Muhammad and Muhammad alone. The verse still claim that if Muhammad is in doubt then he is to "ask those who had the book before thee; the truth hath indeed come to thee from thy Lord, so be in no wise of those who doubt."

3) Even if we forget sura 10:94, there are plenty of other passages which support the reliability of the Bible in Muhammad's day, which is what we have today.

Sura 5:43 "But how do they come to you for decision while they have the Taurat (Torah), in which IS the (plain) Decision of Allah; yet even after that, they turn away. For they are not (really) believers." The Bible is reported as reliable enough for the Christians and Jews to look to the Torah for guidance, rather than needing to come to Muhammad.

Or look at sura 5:46-47:

"And We caused Jesus, son of Mary, to follow in their footsteps, confirming that which was (revealed) before him in the Torah, and We bestowed on him the Gospel wherein IS guidance and a light, confirming that which was (revealed) before it in the Torah - a guidance and an admonition unto those who ward off (evil). Let the People of the Gospel judge by that which Allah hath revealed therein. Whoso judgeth not by that which Allah hath revealed: such are evil-livers." Here "Allah" says that the people of the gospel should check their own Bible's in order to see if what Allah says is true! Why would Allah direct them to a corrupted text?

Or, why would "Allah" tell Christians and Jews to check the Bible they have WITH THEM in sura 2:40-41

"O children of Israel! call to mind My favor which I bestowed on you and be faithful to (your) covenant with Me, I will fulfill (My) covenant with you; and of Me, Me alone, should you be afraid. And believe in what I have revealed, VERIFYING THAT WHICH IS WITH YOU, and be not the first to deny it, neither take a mean price in exchange for My communications; and Me, Me alone should you fear." See, that which is WITH THEM can be used to "verify" what Muhammad is saying.

4) So, all you've done is to raise more problems for yourself.

MA: "I do not have enough time to go through every point you think you made but I will tell you this. I will respond little by little every day."

PM: But you had enough time to waste a paragraph making fun of the Lord's Supper and drawing absurd conclusions from a verse which you admit you took out of context?

Maybe you meant that you needed to run the things I said by your fellow Muslim internet apologists?

MA: "Until tomorrow just remember that Islam is the fastest growing religion on earth. Remember that Muhammed is the most popular name on earth. Remember that Islam is the most faught and agressed against religion on earth. And remember that Allah [TWT] promised that His chosen religion (Islam) will enter every house and reach every corner in the planet by means of those who support it and those who don't and it'd happening ;)"

PM: Until tomorrow remember that you've not once dealt with any argument in a real substantive way.

Remember that it's pretty easy to gain converts when their only other choice is to have their heads cut off. Real sincere conversions.

Remember it's not that Muhammad is remembered, it's what he's remembered for. I don't think I'd be proud of a guy who's remembered for making up a religion and telling people that Satan farts so he won't hear the call to prayer and if you have garlic on your breath while you pray, Allah will not listen to you.

Remember that Islam is the most aggressive religion on the face of the earth. I guess if you don't have a dog in the intellectual fight you need to resort to terrorism and death threats to gain converts.

Remember that Jesus promised to put all His enemies under His feet.

Remember that every knee will bow and every tongue will confess that Jesus is Lord.

Remember that WITHOUT THE SHEDDING OF BLOOD THERE IS NO REMISSION FOR YOUR TRANSGRESSIONS.

16 comments:

  1. hostus twinkius9/22/2006 10:35 AM

    He has yet to answer any argument against his position, in fact he's refuted by his own "holy" book. It's painfully obvious he is simply regurgitating the ignorant Islamic teaching about Christianity and that's sad to me. This is all compounded by his own ignorance of the Qu'ran. He's probably going to run your arguments by someone a bit more versed in these subjects than he is, then we're going to get that spoon-fed response from him. Yet, the accusation is against us for not using "logic". Is his ignorance of the elements of the Lord's Supper, followed by his conclusion that those who partake of it are drunks, an example of "logic"?

    ReplyDelete
  2. Remember to walk a fine line between not taking nonsense from antichristian forces and recognizing that many muslims are just extremely ignorant and brainwashed and possibly a little contact with the truth will reach them and turn them, but if they run into mocking or belittling solely (which is hard not to do when you have these people lecturing us on such supremely important matters) the message may not get through.

    For the record I am not saying anyone here is mocking or belittling solely.

    ReplyDelete
  3. He apparently is confused by the English of the King James Version and believes "drink ye all of it" means Jesus is commanding the disciples to drink all of the wine they can rather than commanding all the disciples to partake of the cup. In addition, he seems to have missed 1 Corinthians 11:17-22 in which St. Paul warns specifically that the Lord's Supper is a solemn act of worship and not an occasion for public revelry.

    ReplyDelete
  4. he admitted that he took it out of context.

    but you can't get "drunk" and "drunk driving" out of "drink ye all of it."

    We don't know how much "all of it" was. Maybe it was 1 oz? Maybe it was 40 oz. The former would not get you drunk, the latter would get a lightweight drunk! :-)

    ReplyDelete
  5. Even if you take Matt. 26:27 "out of context", by which he seems to mean without considering other Scripture passages that might have a bearing on its interpretation, you cannot twist it the way he does. Well, maybe you can, but that is about as clever as insisting the hymn "Gladly the Cross I'd bear" is about Gladly the cross-eyed bear.

    And no doubt this guy would object heatedly if someone tried to base an interpretation of the Koran on an English translation rather than the original Arabic.

    Perhaps even more germane, 1 Corinthians 11: 17-22 is just one passage that quite easily puts Matt. 26:27 in the proper context in the unlikely event that anyone honestly misunderstands it. He has yet to come up with any passages from the Koran that "clarify" the issues raised in your post.

    ReplyDelete
  6. "Even if you take Matt. 26:27 "out of context", by which he seems to mean without considering other Scripture passages that might have a bearing on its interpretation, you cannot twist it the way he does."


    Oh I know. I agree. That was my point. I told him that he took a verse out of context in order to draw weird conclusions, yet he couldn't get his weird conclusions, 8even out of context.*

    I mean, even out of context there's no way to get "drunk driving" out of that passage. :)

    ReplyDelete
  7. I believe that answeringislam.org has a few articles on the interpretations (tafsirs I believe they are called) of those Koranic verses throughout the centuries. The majority (if not the unanimous) interpretation of Islamic scholars from the birth of Islam up into the Middle Ages was that the Bible had *NOT* been corrupted. They interpreted those verses as saying that the Jews and Christians purposefully *misinterpreted* a perfectly good (i.e. preserved) text. [This is obvious from Sura 2:101 which states that the Jews and Christians "fling the Scripture of Allah behind their backs as if they knew not."] The first person to suggest that the Bible had been corrupted (but only to a small extent) was (I believe) Al-Ghazali. However, even he believed that the Bible had been for the most part preserved.

    As for our Muslim friend's argument that Islam is the fastest growing religion:

    If you look at the statistics, Islam's rapid growth rate is mostly due to reproduction. That is, more children are being born into Muslim families than other families.

    In terms of conversions, however, Christianity is still the fastest growing religion. In fact, some Muslims believe that Christianity is spreading so quickly in Africa that they stated that "Islam is dying in Africa."

    ReplyDelete
  8. The Holy Quran explains itself in any language because it is the Word of God who created all languages. And it is a word which God [TWT] protected from weaknesses in men's hearts unlike the others. No muslim would even dare change a letter in the Holy Quran for they won't succeed niether will they be able to live with the guilt and it will be caught. There were attempts by enemies of Islam to circulate a tampered-with version of the Holy Quran and irony has it that most attempts were discovered and stopped by blind men who knew the Holy Quran by heart. It is the work of God. He said in the Holy Quran that He has revealed it and that He will protect it.

    Oh indeed I explained what that Holy Verse from the Holy Quran refers to and I even directed you to the right source that will clarify any confusion regards the Holy Verse. Read what I said carefully please. But once again you prove that you just want to follow blindly without using your mind or heart. A muslim knows all about it and you will never be able to shift them away from the meaning of the Holy Verse at hand or any other Holy Verse.

    Indeed you try to twist the meaning of the Holy Verse as to where it looks like we should follow you. "Ask" is not "follow"!!! If the reader has any logic they would automatically think that it is impossible that someone tells you to do something and tells you to do the opposite, and at the same time!!! I asked you to use logic and not belittle the minds of the readers. Allah (theGod in Arabic) orders us to worship Him only and not to ascribe to Him [TWT]. We muslims say: There is no god but God, and Muhammed is the messenger of God. How do you want the reader to think that a Quran that says only that and nothing else but that would tell us to go follow the opposite to that? Where's the logic here? The flaw is in your interpritation itself which is deliberate. Islam is a complete system. You take anything out of context and it would be just any other words said by just anyone. That's part of the Quran's perfectness.

    On the other hand you guys say: there are many gods it depends on the mood, can be jesus or god or jehovah or the holy spirit or all of them or half of them or non of them (ie. mother nature) or the sun or the moon or mars or the dollar, etc...!!!!!!!!!!!

    What God [TWT] meant in this Holy Verse is something you can find everywhere in the Muslim literature and in the books of Tafsir (ie. translation or clarification of the Holy Quran). I urge you to go look it up and this should be a great start and a beginning for forming the right opinion about Islam and its teachings.

    Now the way I see it is, you are trying to drag the argument over this point in order to avoid the logic in what I said previously eventhough this is the second time I provide an answer. I have many questions for you that are not as lenghthy as the ones you provided for me and are less boring to the reader from a detail point of view. Add to that they are logical and to the point. And they don't require anyone to open any books or dig in references. They just require an open mind and a clean one; might I add :)

    I mean why get into detail when the title of the book is so clear; both books I might add ;)

    Who is God? Who is jesus? Who is the Holy Spirit? How many gods do you worship? How did "god" allow the jews to torture and kill "him"? Who brought "god" back to life after "he" died? When "god was dead for a couple of days" who governed all of this we see around us and took care of all of the universe? Who ruled the universe when "god" was busy trying to convince the jews on earth? Howcome the ones "he" came to convince and save were the main ones who did not listen to "him"? If "god" was at a point human doesn't that make us equal?! If God is not bound by anything (ex. a time and a place, etc...) like Islam says then how does Christianity bound "god" by a time, a place, and even a level of strenght/power?! If jesus was "god" and the salvation then what happens to the people from Adam until jesus's time (who saved those guys)? If jesus came to wipe out our sins then why do you go to church, pay for charity, feed the poor, fast, pray, or even make mension of "him" (for everything was taken care of by "him") or why even preache to me?! If jesus came to wipe out our sins then why is there still killing, stealing, fornicating, adultring, wars, famins, etc...? Did jesus go to the bathroom, get sick, sleep, get hungry, walk in the markets and roam the streets, etc...? Aren't these the characteristics of a human?!

    And the lists go on :)

    I challange anyone to answer these questions logically. If you can't answer them logically and you CANNOT possibly answer them with logic then fear the God of all; the God of Muhammed [PBUH], the God of Jesus [PBUH], theGod (ie. Allah) the Creator. The God who promised terrible torture for your likes in the hereafter. Remember that you worship a dead man and that God never dies ;)

    Until tomorrow just remember that Islam is the fastest growing religion on earth. Remember that Muhammed is the most popular name on earth. Remember that Islam is the most faught and agressed against religion on earth. And remember that Allah [TWT] promised that His chosen religion (Islam) will enter every house and reach every corner in the planet by means of those who support it and those who don't and it's happening ;)

    And that's what makes you attack Islam...

    ReplyDelete
  9. I urge you to not quote any book or reference on earth and to speak mind to mind instead. Don't push yourselves into the corner you cannot handle which is quoting
    books. If your house is of glass don't throw rocks at people.

    I haven't quoted the Holy Quran and haven't quoted the many currupted alleged scriptures you have and if I start doing that it won't be a pleasant seen. You all have read the sample I ran into in Matt. 26:27 randomly which I used earlier. And yes we can infer that drunk driving is included here in that, wanna be, verse since movement is a function of a human being and part of it is driving. You don't suggest that a drunk would turn into a still object until the effect is gone! Would you?! Or maybe that's how you justify drinking to begin with!!!

    Now let's talk logic and brain to brain. I challange all the chritians here and all over the world to come up with answers that can fit in brains and in hearts. I want answers that are logical and clear. Try to use your head not what your pope(s) wrote with his own hands in order to sit on an endless treaure which can feed the whole world 70 times if shared and in order to enjoy more money and givings from blinded people from all over the world just so he can sit on a thrown not even the worst monarchs and dictators on the face of earth can ever afford. And what's in hiding is even worse. Wake up people.

    Your religion is a wealth generating machine for such crooks who lead you by the necks blind foldedly to your inescapable fate. You feel it. You know it.

    But that's besides the point :)

    Answer this (I am looking for logic here remember):

    Who is the christian god?
    1. The Creator (ie TheGod of all).
    2. Jesus.
    3. The holy spirit.

    I challange the whole christian world to answer this question ;)

    Until you do answer **it won't ever happen lol** remember that:

    Islam is the fastest growing religion on earth. Remember that Muhammed is the most popular name on earth. Remember that Islam is the most faught and agressed against religion on earth. And remember that Allah [TWT] promised that His chosen religion (Islam) will enter every house and reach every corner in the planet by means of those who support it and those who don't and it's happening ;)

    And that's what makes you attack Islam...

    ps. It doesn't matter how it's growing .. hehe .. the fact remains it's growing faster. And in Africa we all know what the white anglosaxon christian did
    to locals so let's not go there. But it's not true that Islam is passing away in Africa. If you mean under the guns of the French and the English then we agree and point is made in favor of Islam :)

    ReplyDelete
  10. Who is God? Who is jesus? Who is the Holy Spirit? How many gods do you worship? How did "god" allow the jews to torture and kill "him"? Who brought "god" back to life after "he" died? When "god was dead for a couple of days" who governed all of this we see around us and took care of all of the universe? Who ruled the universe when "god" was busy trying to convince the jews on earth? Howcome the ones "he" came to convince and save were the main ones who did not listen to "him"? If "god" was at a point human doesn't that make us equal?! If God is not bound by anything (ex. a time and a place, etc...) like Islam says then how does Christianity bound "god" by a time, a place, and even a level of strenght/power?! If jesus was "god" and the salvation then what happens to the people from Adam until jesus's time (who saved those guys)? If jesus came to wipe out our sins then why do you go to church, pay for charity, feed the poor, fast, pray, or even make mension of "him" (for everything was taken care of by "him") or why even preache to me?! If jesus came to wipe out our sins then why is there still killing, stealing, fornicating, adultring, wars, famins, etc...? Did jesus go to the bathroom, get sick, sleep, get hungry, walk in the markets and roam the streets, etc...? Aren't these the characteristics of a human?!

    LOGICAL answers please ;)

    ReplyDelete
  11. christianity says that if someone slaps you turn the other cheek.

    Howcome you guys are slapping back?

    Yet another logical flaw in your fake religion ;)

    ReplyDelete
  12. "If jesus came to wipe out our sins then why do you go to church, pay for charity, feed the poor, fast, pray, or even make mension of "him" (for everything was taken care of by "him") or why even preache to me?!"

    Out of loving and grateful response for the salvation Christ won for us through His precious blood on the cross. We obey the commandments of God willingly, not out of fear of punishment or faith in our own righteousness. We preach to Muslims that they may share in the blessed assurance of eternal life which they cannot find in Islam.

    ReplyDelete
  13. Dude Anonymouse,
    I think your last entry reveal that you really, really neeed to under Christianity at the basic 101 level instead of going on the offense
    I think you are discussing things you don't about...
    hm

    ReplyDelete
  14. How is that? This is very funny :) Tell me then, educate me? I asked the questions that you cannot answer logically and then I have a point so attack my knowledge of your fake teachings all you want! The truth does not need education. The truth needs an open mind and a thinking one; rather.

    I can call you names too. But what did that serve?! Instead you can open up and try to listen to my objective points ;)

    I say you worship a dead man. Prove me wrong!!! I say christians do NOT worship God but rather worship a dead man according to their own teachings. Prove me wrong.

    Talk to my mind. You say this; not me!!!

    ReplyDelete
  15. "We preach to Muslims that they may share in the blessed assurance of eternal life which they cannot find in Islam."

    How do you know? lol.

    It's like saying the moon is so hot at 9am. How on earth did you know and decide that muslims don't feel joy and happiness in life or in their faith?! How is that? Through not drinking and losing their minds? Through not letting their rights be stolen from them by aggressors? Through taking drugs and saying "jesus forgave us"? Through losing their family values and through the man not knowing who his wife is talking to on the phone under the "women's rights" slogan? How did you reach this conclusion?

    Again give logic. It's easy to just say anything. But can you back it?! No you can't because it's not true.

    Maybe it's the karma of a dead man you worship :) Try God instead!!!...

    ReplyDelete
  16. To my dear brothers and sisters in humanity all over the world who are reading these words. I invite you as a surrenderer to God to embrace Islam (Submission or Surrendering). If you do God will reword you twice the reward and He can increase it by doubles to those whome He so chooses. If you don't then be my witnesses that I have, as one of the Muslems, convieghed to you the message the Prophet of God has recieved from God as mercy for all people and as a light and a guide to shield from the woes of a terrible day when money and children won't save a wrong man or woman. If you refuse and reject then you only harm yourselves and God does not rely on or need you to feed, shelter or help Him; all praise be to Him [PBTH]. And God is Greater and is Most Merciful. And Allah [TWT] theGod does not wrong people. It is what we do that will decide our fate along with coming to God with a clean and clear heart.

    Embrace Islam and you will become as clean from any sin or bad deed you committed as you were the day you were born.

    ReplyDelete