Jason Engwer and I recently got into a debate with self-described "Christian Fundamentalist," "Socialist," and same-sex marriage proponent Curt Day. Here's my latest response.
Curt said:
Please understand that I am only arguing for the society's acceptance of same-sex marriage, not the Church's.
Hm, okay, but this contradicts what you said above: "Same sex marriage is an evangelical issue, not a legal one."
What's more, it's duplicitous because you've already argued: "if we have religious liberty, the [sic] Christianity's definition of marriage cannot necessarily prohibit same sex marriages."
Plus in your current comments, which I'll now respond to you, it becomes quite clear you are in fact "arguing for" the church's "acceptance" of "same-sex marriage" given how you keep chastizing Christians like us for not subscribing to your "arguments" for "equality" and the like.
Though the Declaration of Independence has no 'legal' authority...
I don't know why you put "legal" in scare quotes since it's not as if there's a special meaning to the word you're attempting to highlight, is there?
But in any case thank you for conceding the point.
the equality that is emphasized in the Declaration are presupposed, however imperfectly, in the Constitution
This is pretty vague! One could easy say a lot of things are "presupposed, however imperfectly, in the Constitution." God is "presupposed, however imperfectly, in the Constitution." So according to you would there be recourse to argue for a theocracy?
This is indicated by the Supreme Court decisions that undid the systematic inequality that existed in many of the discriminatory laws from our past.
1. While we're on the topic, Jefferson wrote at length about judicial tyranny. Likewise Lincoln (who, as I'm sure you know, is the person most credited with ending slavery) had some choice words to say about judicial tyranny (e.g. check out his first inaugural address). And of course a lot of people today including conservative scholars have said or written quite a bit about judicial tyranny.
2. Are you referring to "the systematic inequality" as far as African-Americans and other ethnicities? How is what you're arguing for analogous to racism?
3. Are you referring to "the systematic inequality" as far as gender inequalities? How is what you're arguing for analogous to sexism?
4. How are homosexuals discriminated against in our society? Homosexual citizens have all the rights every other citizen has within the same bounds every other citizen has. It's not as if homosexuals don't have the right to free speech, free assembly, the right to bear arms, due process, etc.
5. Also, to my knowledge, there's no law disallowing homosexuals to marry. They can marry any man or woman they please so long as their spouse-to-be is of marriageable age, so long as it isn't an illicit consanguineous relationship, so long as they aren't married to more than one partner at the same time, and so long as they are of the opposite sex or gender. These are the same laws for every citizen.
6. If you're referring to changing gender restrictions in the law for homosexuals, why should homosexuals be given special, preferential treatment, different from everyone else in our society, such that we have to redefine marriage to accommodate homosexuals?
7. If we give homosexuals special, preferential treatment when it comes to marriage, then it's potential grounds to give others in society special, preferential treatment when it comes to marriage too. Say if the polysexual wish to marry both a man and a woman at the same time. Or say if the polyamorous wish to marry multiple partners all with their explicit consent.
8. Besides, if this is what you're arguing for, then what you're really arguing for is a redefinition of what constitutes marriage. If so, then it's not just a purely legal matter alone.
Of course, if you want to argue that gays cannot practice same-sex marriage because heterosexuals are superior and thus are the only ones who deserve the right to marry, be my guest.
Nope, sorry, that's not what I'm arguing.
Just remember what you are associating with the Gospel when you do that.
The same could be said of you. You're associating the gospel with your social values.
So why should Christians accept the moral argument of equality? Again, don't and see what you are associating with the Gospel. Do you really want people to think of Christian domination of society when they hear the Gospel?
Why are you more concerned with what society thinks of you than what God thinks of you?
Of course, there is another problem. That problem is that us Christians have difficulty in distinguishing what morals should be binding in the Church alone from those that should be binding in society as well. The cause of that inability to distinguish may not be religious or philosophical but psychological. Those who engage in too much all-or-nothing thinking struggle to make necessary distinctions.
Oh, dear. I guess you're speaking for yourself in this little psychoanalysis, and/or perhaps attempting to turn this into a didactic therapy session as if what grates your conscience is or should also be what grates other Christians as well. Ho hum.
We have a society whose laws are based on equality and respect. That means that none of us should be treated with preference before the law. Likewise, the law should not favor any group.
So why are you arguing for preferential treatment of homosexuals with regard to marriage, per what I've written above?
What some fellow Christians don't know what they are advocating when they want Christianity to determine the laws of the land is that they are asking for a place of preference in society. When a religious or ethnic group does that, they are not asking for democracy, which is the rule of all people, they are asking for an ethnocracy where one group has a position of advantage in making and living before the law over other groups.
Once again, how is this analogous to racial/ethnic discrimination? Perhaps it is, perhaps it isn't. But you still haven't made an argument for it.
As I asked earlier, "equal" in what respect? Under the law of the land? But homosexuals are equal under the law of the land.
Or, for example, one could say, in order for x to be equal y, there needs to be a commonality z shared between x and y. So what is z with regard to your argument about "equality"? Is it that they're both minorities? But how is being a minority inherently deserving of special rights with regard to marriage? Should we allow male Muslim minorities polygyny, up to four wives?
I was pointing out the similarities between Luther's treatment of the Jews later in his career with our treatment of gays. Certainly we are not as severe with gays as Luther was with the Jews. But the justification for society acting against a specific group is the same.
1. If you're attempting to draw a this is to that as that is to this sort of parallel, as in Luther:antisemitism::modern Christians:our purported anti-homosexuality, then for starters you'll have to explain rather than simply assume or assert how modern Christians are discriminating against homosexuals in terms of marriage (which would include you addressing our aforementioned questions such as the ones about "equality") as well as how antisemitism is analogous to compelling Christians to accept a redefinition of marriage to include same-sex marriages.
2. As far as I'm aware, there are no laws against being homosexual, and in fact laws protecting homosexuals. Likewise there are no laws against being of a certain race or ethnicity, and in fact laws protecting minority ethnicities or races. However, whereas there are no moral or immoral consequences directly due to the color of a person's skin, there can be moral or immoral consequences directly due to a person's sexual behavior.
3. And, of course, what you say here cuts against what you said at the very beginning of your comment: "Please understand that I am only arguing for the society's acceptance of same-sex marriage, not the Church's."