"I quickly knelt in front of him. He smiled and asked if anyone else wanted to receive Jesus. No one stirred. Then he asked the Christians to come forward and pray with me. Several did, kneeling beside me. For years Hindus had bowed before me -- and now I was kneeling before a Christian."
That's absolutely awesome, and another reason why I cannot understand why some people, a mixture of both C's and A's, reject Alter Calls or Gospel Invitations to pray and receive Christ in their heart. Some C's call it, "Decisional Regeneration," but why try to disparage such an awesome event. Jesus knocks, people open, and Christ comes in, and some want to say, "Well that's just Decisional Regeneration." No, that's salvation. There are some things that I just don't understand.
If "ritual" is an action, so too is prayer, is it not? Actions do result in something. Consider prayer. In prayer, one makes an active appeal to God in confession of sin, by petitioning and asking God to do something in their lives, and for God's purpose to take hold in them. Without this step of faith, faith is otherwise a mere naked pretense to faith, or pseudo faith, and the inner convictions worthless. No?
But here is the real question: When it was motioned for the Guru in this testimony to pray to receive Christ, and for others to pray with him, would you have put a stop to it? If you say, "no," are you being consistent?
"If 'ritual' is an action, so too is prayer, is it not? Actions do result in something. Consider prayer. In prayer, one makes an active appeal to God in confession of sin, by petitioning and asking God to do something in their lives, and for God's purpose to take hold in them. Without this step of faith, faith is otherwise a mere naked pretense to faith, or pseudo faith, and the inner convictions worthless. No?"
1. Actually, prayer can become a ritual too (e.g. Matt 6:7). It can become hypocritical or self-justifying or the like (e.g. Matt 6:5, Luke 18:10).
2. If you think you're saved by your action of prayer, then you're not trusting in Christ alone.
"But here is the real question: When it was motioned for the Guru in this testimony to pray to receive Christ, and for others to pray with him, would you have put a stop to it? If you say, 'no,' are you being consistent?"
How is it inconsistent with Reformed theology if someone doesn't stop others from praying for someone else's salvation?
And why should I stop others praying for someone else's salvation?
"If 'ritual' is an action, so too is prayer, is it not?"
In Scripture, believers pray. Prayer doesn't make them believers.
"Actions do result in something."
Like false assurance.
"Consider prayer. In prayer, one makes an active appeal to God in confession of sin, by petitioning and asking God to do something in their lives, and for God's purpose to take hold in them. Without this step of faith, faith is otherwise a mere naked pretense to faith, or pseudo faith, and the inner convictions worthless. No?"
In which case the supplicant is already a believer. It's not the ritual of prayer that engenders conversion or the new birth.
"But here is the real question: When it was motioned for the Guru in this testimony to pray to receive Christ, and for others to pray with him, would you have put a stop to it?"
God can sovereignly overrule flawed evangelistic methods and assumptions.
"It's not the ritual of prayer that engenders conversion or the new birth."
I understand that RT teaches Preemptive Regeneration, but nevertheless, I can't help but notice from Romans 10:9-10 the specific action verbs related specifically to the transmission of salvation from above:
Romans 10:9-10: "If you *confess* with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and *believe* in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; for with the heart a person *believes*, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he *confesses*, resulting in salvation."
Notice the highlighted action verbs. According to Ephesian 1:13, the result of the action verbs is that God does His own action verb in the form of instilling the down payment and deposit of the Holy Spirit. In other words, we are saved through an action: 1) call upon the Lord, 2) confess with mouth, 3) believe in heart, 4) God saves [and regenerates :-)] and deposits the Holy Spirit (i.e. Indwelling).
So if the Gospel Invitation or Alter Call, seems to me anyway, to facilitate this chain of action verbs, as was the case of the conversion of the Hindu Guru, and if so, why would we want to put the kabosh on that, or fail to encourage it? That's what I'm not getting here. (I'm starting to think that Calvinists are from Venus and Arminians are from Mars. We seem to be from different worlds. So much is different, i.e. God's eternality, omnipresence, omniscience, Foreknowledge, Middle Knowledge, Atonement, Grace, the Gospel, but we spell "Jesus" the same way, so we have that going for us.)
"I quickly knelt in front of him. He smiled and asked if anyone else wanted to receive Jesus. No one stirred. Then he asked the Christians to come forward and pray with me. Several did, kneeling beside me. For years Hindus had bowed before me -- and now I was kneeling before a Christian."
ReplyDeleteThat's absolutely awesome, and another reason why I cannot understand why some people, a mixture of both C's and A's, reject Alter Calls or Gospel Invitations to pray and receive Christ in their heart. Some C's call it, "Decisional Regeneration," but why try to disparage such an awesome event. Jesus knocks, people open, and Christ comes in, and some want to say, "Well that's just Decisional Regeneration." No, that's salvation. There are some things that I just don't understand.
The alter call system is unscriptural.
ReplyDeleteIt also confuses faith with ritual. Belief is involuntary. Actions are not a substitute for inner conviction.
Thanks for posting these articles, particularly the LeaderU article. There are some Hindi acquaintances and these articles give me hope.
ReplyDeleteHello Steve,
ReplyDeleteIf "ritual" is an action, so too is prayer, is it not? Actions do result in something. Consider prayer. In prayer, one makes an active appeal to God in confession of sin, by petitioning and asking God to do something in their lives, and for God's purpose to take hold in them. Without this step of faith, faith is otherwise a mere naked pretense to faith, or pseudo faith, and the inner convictions worthless. No?
But here is the real question: When it was motioned for the Guru in this testimony to pray to receive Christ, and for others to pray with him, would you have put a stop to it? If you say, "no," are you being consistent?
Richard Coords said:
ReplyDelete"If 'ritual' is an action, so too is prayer, is it not? Actions do result in something. Consider prayer. In prayer, one makes an active appeal to God in confession of sin, by petitioning and asking God to do something in their lives, and for God's purpose to take hold in them. Without this step of faith, faith is otherwise a mere naked pretense to faith, or pseudo faith, and the inner convictions worthless. No?"
1. Actually, prayer can become a ritual too (e.g. Matt 6:7). It can become hypocritical or self-justifying or the like (e.g. Matt 6:5, Luke 18:10).
2. If you think you're saved by your action of prayer, then you're not trusting in Christ alone.
3. Calvinists believe regeneration precedes faith.
"But here is the real question: When it was motioned for the Guru in this testimony to pray to receive Christ, and for others to pray with him, would you have put a stop to it? If you say, 'no,' are you being consistent?"
How is it inconsistent with Reformed theology if someone doesn't stop others from praying for someone else's salvation?
And why should I stop others praying for someone else's salvation?
RICHARD COORDS SAID:
ReplyDelete"If 'ritual' is an action, so too is prayer, is it not?"
In Scripture, believers pray. Prayer doesn't make them believers.
"Actions do result in something."
Like false assurance.
"Consider prayer. In prayer, one makes an active appeal to God in confession of sin, by petitioning and asking God to do something in their lives, and for God's purpose to take hold in them. Without this step of faith, faith is otherwise a mere naked pretense to faith, or pseudo faith, and the inner convictions worthless. No?"
In which case the supplicant is already a believer. It's not the ritual of prayer that engenders conversion or the new birth.
"But here is the real question: When it was motioned for the Guru in this testimony to pray to receive Christ, and for others to pray with him, would you have put a stop to it?"
God can sovereignly overrule flawed evangelistic methods and assumptions.
Hello Steve,
ReplyDeleteLet's look at that for a second:
"It's not the ritual of prayer that engenders conversion or the new birth."
I understand that RT teaches Preemptive Regeneration, but nevertheless, I can't help but notice from Romans 10:9-10 the specific action verbs related specifically to the transmission of salvation from above:
Romans 10:9-10: "If you *confess* with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and *believe* in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; for with the heart a person *believes*, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he *confesses*, resulting in salvation."
Notice the highlighted action verbs. According to Ephesian 1:13, the result of the action verbs is that God does His own action verb in the form of instilling the down payment and deposit of the Holy Spirit. In other words, we are saved through an action: 1) call upon the Lord, 2) confess with mouth, 3) believe in heart, 4) God saves [and regenerates :-)] and deposits the Holy Spirit (i.e. Indwelling).
So if the Gospel Invitation or Alter Call, seems to me anyway, to facilitate this chain of action verbs, as was the case of the conversion of the Hindu Guru, and if so, why would we want to put the kabosh on that, or fail to encourage it? That's what I'm not getting here. (I'm starting to think that Calvinists are from Venus and Arminians are from Mars. We seem to be from different worlds. So much is different, i.e. God's eternality, omnipresence, omniscience, Foreknowledge, Middle Knowledge, Atonement, Grace, the Gospel, but we spell "Jesus" the same way, so we have that going for us.)