A former Catholic bishop of Salt Lake City once facetiously boasted that he headed the second largest church in Utah. There Catholics comprise nine percent of the population. Well known of course is that most people in the state belong to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, the Mormons.
The two churches differ significantly. However, in one area, that of family values, they hold much in common...The Mormon Church has steadily supported family values.
It’s revealing to see Catholic bishops vouching for the social mores of Mormonism.
Beyond that, is it true that Mormonism supports family values? The problem with this claim is that, in practice, the Mormon hierarchy doesn’t enforce adherence to social conservatism among its membership. Mormons, including Mormons in very influential or policymaking positions, range all along the ideological spectrum. To take a few current, prominent examples, consider the diverse views of Glenn Beck, Orrin Hatch, Harry Reid, Mitt Romney, and Jon Huntsman.
The Mormon hierarchy is more concerned with social acceptance and social promotion than social values. Pleased to see Mormons rise to the top, regardless of their personal views or public policies.
And that’s something which, indeed, Mormonism shares in common with Catholicism. Both Catholic and Mormon politicians can get away with anything while their “church” looks the other way. The Church of Romoroni.
The problem with this claim is that, in practice, the Mormon hierarchy doesn’t enforce adherence to social conservatism among its membership.
ReplyDeleteI don't know. You give the examples...
To take a few current, prominent examples, consider the diverse views of Glenn Beck, Orrin Hatch, Harry Reid, Mitt Romney, and Jon Huntsman.
I mean, I know Reid is the head dem in the senate - but that's not exactly the most wildly diverse bunch there. Particularly insofar as social issues are concerned. Harry Reid may be head dem, but he's not exactly mister huge social liberal as far as I'm aware.
The Mormon hierarchy is more concerned with social acceptance and social promotion than social values. Pleased to see Mormons rise to the top, regardless of their personal views or public policies.
Maybe, but you're going to need to do better to show that you can be, say... a pro-choice pro-gay-marriage Mormon without the mormon church being upset.
And that’s something which, indeed, Mormonism shares in common with Catholicism. Both Catholic and Mormon politicians can get away with anything while their “church” looks the other way.
Not really. Again, on social issues, when does the Catholic church look the other way on abortion? Or gay marriage? Maybe some individual priests and clergy do, but how many protestants can I find who do the same or worse?
Really, I can appreciate the charge of tolerating deviancies in teaching for political reasons, but this just doesn't seem to add up as strong as you'd suggest it could. I mean, especially in light of the other post where some Triablogger mentions that the name of the political game is to support the most conservative candidate who can win.
I mean, in principle, doesn't that mean a triablogger may well be casting a vote for Romney this time around?
CRUDE SAID:
ReplyDelete"I don't know. You give the examples..."
I did.
"I mean, I know Reid is the head dem in the senate - but that's not exactly the most wildly diverse bunch there. Particularly insofar as social issues are concerned. Harry Reid may be head dem, but he's not exactly mister huge social liberal as far as I'm aware."
Consider his positions on planned parenthood, extending hate-crime legislation to homosexuals, school vouchers, voluntary school prayer, John Roberts, Samuel Alito, don’t ask/don’t tell, &c.
"Maybe, but you're going to need to do better to show that you can be, say... a pro-choice pro-gay-marriage Mormon without the mormon church being upset."
I don't have to show anything. It's what doesn't show that says it all. The inaction of the Mormon hierarchy.
"Again, on social issues, when does the Catholic church look the other way on abortion? Or gay marriage?"
Name me 5 liberal Catholic lawmakers, judges, prime ministers, &c. whom the church of Rome has excommunicated.
Consider his positions on planned parenthood, extending hate-crime legislation to homosexuals, school vouchers, voluntary school prayer, John Roberts, Samuel Alito, don’t ask/don’t tell, &c.
ReplyDeleteI'll assume Reid's position on all these things is exactly what you suggest. But really: Are you suggesting mormons should do whatever their excommunication equivalent is for Reid opposing John Roberts and Alito, school vouchers, etc? You really think that if a mormon votes against school vouchers, that should result in their being kicked out of the mormon church? And if not that, what penalty should be incurred?
Supporting planned parenthood? Perhaps, though Reid supposedly is on record thinking abortion should be restricted to cases of rape, incest, and life of the mother. Which may well be BS, but lacking certainty of that it complicates the issue - I'm sure Reid's reply would be the dance where he stresses the non-abortion aspects of PP.
I don't have to show anything. It's what doesn't show that says it all. The inaction of the Mormon hierarchy.
Well, I think you'd have to at least show that what the mormon hierarchy is being 'inactive' on deserves action. I'm worried here that you think the church - and really, any church - should basically excommunicate anyone who has a politically liberal or even non-conservative view on positions, full stop. And if I'm correct in that, I don't think it's reasonable. If some guy votes for a tax hike, should he be kicked out of his church? Even if it's an obnoxious tax hike?
Name me 5 liberal Catholic lawmakers, judges, prime ministers, &c. whom the church of Rome has excommunicated.
Again - merely being liberal? Seriously? I'm tempted to assume you don't mean liberal, full stop, so much as supporting abortion, etc.
And why is excommunication the only sign? I recall that when Pelosi suggested that Catholic teaching was such that it wasn't clear if abortion was wrong, bishops jumped on her quickly. I see the church putting out voting guides which stress Catholic teaching on issues of abortion, contraception, etc. And of course there's the Church's activity in the pro-life movement.
Does any of this count at all? Clearly it would impact pro-choice politicians, Catholic or not. Or is it only excommunication which would register? Because if so, I'd like to know how non-Catholics manage to discipline unruly members. I'm pretty sure Baptists don't have excommunication.
CRUDE SAID:
ReplyDelete"I'll assume Reid's position on all these things is exactly what you suggest. But really: Are you suggesting mormons should do whatever their excommunication equivalent is for Reid opposing John Roberts and Alito, school vouchers, etc? You really think that if a mormon votes against school vouchers, that should result in their being kicked out of the mormon church? And if not that, what penalty should be incurred?"
The question on the table is whether Mormonism supports "family values." Okay so what's the actual policy of the Mormon regime?
"Supporting planned parenthood? Perhaps, though Reid supposedly is on record thinking abortion should be restricted to cases of rape, incest, and life of the mother. Which may well be BS, but lacking certainty of that it complicates the issue - I'm sure Reid's reply would be the dance where he stresses the non-abortion aspects of PP."
You act as though funding/defunding PP is a gray area.
"Well, I think you'd have to at least show that what the mormon hierarchy is being 'inactive' on deserves action. I'm worried here that you think the church - and really, any church - should basically excommunicate anyone who has a politically liberal or even non-conservative view on positions, full stop."
I wasn't merely discussing the private views of individual Mormons, but public officeholders and policy-makers.
"Again - merely being liberal? Seriously?"
You're not paying attention. Notice the category of individuals I listed.
But even if it were just a question of being "liberal," why not? In what sense do they belong to an organization if they don't share the official beliefs and practices?
"And why is excommunication the only sign?"
Having terms of membership which demarcate members from outsiders is a fundamental feature of institutional identity.
That was true in OT Israel as well as the NT church.
"I recall that when Pelosi suggested that Catholic teaching was such that it wasn't clear if abortion was wrong, bishops jumped on her quickly."
Ineffectual words. A verbal slap on the wrist.
"I see the church putting out voting guides which stress Catholic teaching on issues of abortion, contraception, etc. And of course there's the Church's activity in the pro-life movement. Does any of this count at all?"
It counts for nothing. Like a weak parent who complains about a misbehaving child, but withholds discipline.
"Because if so, I'd like to know how non-Catholics manage to discipline unruly members."
The LCMS excommunicated George Tiller. The OPC/PCA excommunicated Paul Hill.
"I'm pretty sure Baptists don't have excommunication."
I'm pretty sure they do.