Arminians frequently assail Calvinism because its doctrine of divine providence conflicts with their kinder, gentler view of God. By way of contrast, Brian Godawa offers this analysis of Revelation:
In this apocalyptic prophecy we read of a huge demonic spectacle of genetically mutated monsters chasing and tormenting screaming people (9:1–11); armies of bizarre beasts wreaking death and destruction on the masses (9:13–18); a demonic dragon chasing a woman with the intent to eat her child (12:3–4); a seven-headed amphibious Hydra with horns that blasphemes God and draws pagan idol worship from everyone on earth (13:1–10); massive famines (6:8); gross outbreaks of rotting sores covering people’s bodies (16:2); plagues of demonic insects torturing populations (9:1–11); fire-breathing Griffon-like creatures (9:17); supernatural warfare of angels and demons (12:7); the dragging of rotting corpses through the streets while people party over them (11:7–13); rivers and seas of blood (14:20; 16:3); a blaspheming harlot doing the deed with kings and merchants (17:1-5) who then turn on her, strip her naked, burn her with fire, and cannibalize her (17:16); more famines, pestilence, and plagues (18:8); and when the good guys win, there is a mighty feast of vultures scavenging the flesh of kings and commanders in victory (19:17–18). And I might add, this all gives glory to God in the highest.
http://www.godawa.com/HW/ApologeticforHorror_CRIJ-Godawa.pdf
It's amazingly ironic that people like Tim Lahaye who wrote the Left Behind series (and who endorsed Dave Hunt's book on calvinism) would be repulsed by Calvinism's mean ol' God. You'd think Lahaye wouldn't have a problem with such bad things giving glory to God, but when it comes to Arminianism and Calvinism, he just doesn't get it.
ReplyDeleteArminians could argue that in Revelation, God causes only momentary, earthly suffering, but in the Calvinist scheme He inflicts eternal suffering.
ReplyDeleteWouldn't the argument be that in Revelation, all suffering was caused by the sinfulness of man (rather than God)?
ReplyDeleteἘΚΚΛΗΣΊΑ SAID:
ReplyDelete"Wouldn't the argument be that in Revelation, all suffering was caused by the sinfulness of man (rather than God)?"
That's a false dichotomy, as well as equivocal. Sinners aren't causing God to punish them. God is causing them to suffer by punishing them. Of course, you can say that "cause" it in the sense of meriting their punishment. But you can't reduce the effect to human agency alone.
Well now, "in excelsis" is simply an indictment against those who refuse to drink Kingdom tea, chilled or hot??
ReplyDeleteRev 22:1 Then the angel showed me the river of the water of life, bright as crystal, flowing from the throne of God and of the Lamb
Rev 22:2 through the middle of the street of the city; also, on either side of the river, the tree of life with its twelve kinds of fruit, yielding its fruit each month. The leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.
There is an eternal supply of water and there are plenty of leaves available coming from the Tree of Life!
Repentance is a turning to God.
Eternal Life is defined as knowing the Only True God and Jesus Christ Whom He sent.
And the Kingdom of God is defined as Righteousness, Peace and Joy in the Holy Spirit.
The wages paid for sin is death!
Work anyone?
Repentance and Rest anyone, in fellowship with all other Saints, over a cup of piping hot Tea?
The drinks are on the House! :)
Steve said: "That's a false dichotomy, as well as equivocal. Sinners aren't causing God to punish them. God is causing them to suffer by punishing them. Of course, you can say that "cause" it in the sense of meriting their punishment. But you can't reduce the effect to human agency alone."
ReplyDeletePerhaps, but I wasn't asserting the argument myself.
Rather, I was offering a more accurate formulation of the Arminian position than the straw man one that was being presented.
Nor was I saying that was the only way of looking at it, however WRT to Arminian position it would certainly be.
VIISAUS SAID:
ReplyDelete"Arminians could argue that in Revelation, God causes only momentary, earthly suffering, but in the Calvinist scheme He inflicts eternal suffering."
Since Arminianism traditionally affirms the doctrine of everlasting punishment, I don't know what your contrast intends.
ἐκκλησία said...
ReplyDelete"Rather, I was offering a more accurate formulation of the Arminian position than the straw man one that was being presented."
I didn't present a straw man.
Nor did I say you did. The straw man appeared in the comments.
ReplyDeleteStill, in thinking about your comment:
ReplyDeleteSteve said "Of course, you can say that "cause" it in the sense of meriting their punishment. But you can't reduce the effect to human agency alone."
You are right of course, both the agency of God AND man plays a role in who gets punished. I wouldn't dare reduce the effect to human agency alone, just as I would not reduce it to superhuman agency either. Clearly both are involved.
Still, I can't help notice that God restricts His right to punish, to ONLY those who remain liable for their sin-debt because their punishment has not been covered by Christ's through faith.
God is limiting His own sovereign right to punish all men, under a covenantial agreement; "Those whose sins are covered by Christ alone will be saved" But every Biblical covenant has both blessing AND curse just as every covenant has two parties (God and man)
Since it is also true that God restricts His right to reward, to ONLY those who are no longer liable for their sin-debt because their punishment has been covered by Christ's through faith, it seems that God's sovereignty is bound to His covenants.
If these effects are indeed covered under a covenantial agreement, I wonder if you're willing to make the same claim here, that this effect also must include both the agency of God and man?