Sunday, February 16, 2020
Miracles and missionaries
Counterfeit miracles
Like I said last night. I have friends who are there that never see this happen. Additionally, a missionary chimed in last night to say the exact same thing. They actually warn the people there against folks like Chan.
— Fredman (@Fred_Butler) February 13, 2020
1. Fred Butler doesn't stop to consider that the Burmese missionaries he happens to know or interact with may not necessarily be representative of Burmese missionaries in general.
2. What if there are missionaries who have in fact witnessed miracles but Butler doesn't know or interact with them? After all, how likely is someone who is a dyed-in-the-wool cessationist as Butler is likely to interact with missionaries who aren't like-minded cessationists?
3. Or is Butler suggesting it would come down to a "my missionary friends" vs. "your missionary friends" debate over the possibility of miracles? Yet wouldn't Butler simply dismiss counter-testimony open to miracles if it's strictly an issue of testimonial evidence?
4. Indeed, based on what I've seen from Butler, he readily accepts testimonial evidence from missionaries who "never see" miracles occur (as he does here), but he dismisses testimonial evidence to the contrary. If so, I would presume that's because Butler believes the default position is the negative position. That the negative position is the default position unless the positive position can be justified. In our case, the negative position is the claim that no miracles occur today.
However, that would lead to an extreme skepticism if the position is consistently applied. For example, how do we know we have physical bodies? If the default position is the negative position, then we are not justified to believe we have physical bodies unless it can be proven that we do have physical bodies. But one can always argue that it's possible we are brains-in-a-vat and hence without physical bodies. That perhaps what we experience is entirely computer generated but we can't tell the difference from what's computer generated and reality itself. Sure, it's absurd to believe we are brains-in-a-vat, but can the possibility be completely ruled out? If not, and if the negative position is the default position, then we are not justified to believe we have physical bodies.
If the presumption that the default position is the negative position is only applicable to miracles, then (as it stands) that would seem to be special pleading.
5. Why does testimonial evidence about miracles have to be solely from Christian missionaries? Why can't testimonial evidence about miracles be from non-Christians? Even heretics?
After all, the Bible itself includes accounts of pagans and heretics working miracles. For example, Jannes and Jambres. Likewise Balaam. And Acts 8 records that many people paid attention to Simon Magus "because for a long time he had amazed them with his magic" (Acts 8:11). Presumably Simon Magus wasn't merely doing cheap parlor tricks.
Now, I don't think Francis Chan is a heretic. However, let's suppose he is. If so, why couldn't a heretic work genuine healing miracles?
6. There's also a unique danger to the cessationist Christian. If, for instance, a cessationist Christian came across a bona fide miracle, say a healing miracle, but the miracle was worked by a pagan (e.g. an African witch doctor), then it could potentially challenge the cessationist Christian's faith in a way that it wouldn't challenge the faith of the Christian who believes pagans could work healing miracles.
However, if the cessationist Christian accepts that the dark side can work miracles through people (e.g. healing miracles, making accurate prophecies), but believes God doesn't work miracles through people today, then why not? God allows the dark side to work miracles, but God binds himself or his people from performing miracles?
7. Not to mention, on certain interpretations of Revelation, or on certain eschatological beliefs, the beast and the false prophet can work miracles. The beast is resurrected. The false prophet calls down fire from heaven like Elijah did with the prophets of Baal. The false prophet can breathe breath into an image to make it come alive. And so on. The false prophet does all this in order to "deceive those who dwell on earth". See Rev 13.
I don't know Butler's eschatological beliefs, or more to the point how he would interpret Revelation, but if he believes the beast and the false prophet can work genuine miracles, why exclude the possibility that non-Christians such as heretics can work miracles too? Is miracle-working only possible in a future eschatological period? Why think people could work miracles only before the biblical canon was completed and after we reach a future eschatological period but not in-between?
Or would these so-called miracles in Revelation only have the appearance of the miraculous, but in truth they're non-miraculous scientific or technological marvels that the beast and false prophet made to appear to be miracles? (By the way, is cessationist miracle detection akin to atheistic design detection of the Dawkins variety? There's always a naturally explicable reason for the appearance of the miraculous.)
8. As an aside, in general, I prefer to use the name Burma rather than Myanmar.
Burma is the name for the nation under British rule as well as after its independence when the nation was a democracy. However Myanmar is the name the militarily-controlled and dictatorial socialist government has designated for the nation.
To my knowledge, the UK doesn't recognize Myanmar as the official name of the nation. Neither does the US, though the US sometimes straddles the fence by using both Burma and Myanmar at the same time, viz. "Burma (Myanmar)" or "Myanmar (Burma)". Most nations in the United Nations do recognize Myanmar as the official name, but I wouldn't recognize the UN's recognition, let alone its authority on this (and many other matters)!
To be fair, a colonial name based on the majority ethnic group (i.e. Burmans) isn't necessarily ideal either. However, I'd accept Myanmar if the people were able to have a free and fair vote and elected to change the name to Myanmar (or maybe more likely Myanmaa which is somewhat closer to the true pronunciation).
Deaf to reason
There are many other similar cases on YouTube of people hearing for the first time thanks to medical science and technology (e.g. cochlear implants).
However, what if I were to take the extreme skepticism of some cessationists and apply it to such cases?
I could say the video has been doctored.
I could say it's a conspiracy by physicians, nurses, audiologists, and even the mainstream news to fake the evidence. After all, we know all about fake news in politics, so why couldn't there be tons of fake news everywhere? A faked moon landing! A flat earth! Deep fakes of all sorts of people!
I could say they're all just actors hired to play a part. I could say they're still actors hired to play a part years after the fact. And even if we were to meet them in person and ask them, we can't believe them, because their own testimonies could be doubted.
I could say the medical documentation and their medical history has been fabricated.
I could discount the possibility of hearing by physicians, researchers, and other medical experts, because they're part of "Big Ear". For one thing, they stand to gain financially by doing surgical procedures.
I could say they're all shady people so why should we trust shady people? Cf. John 9:16.
I could say, how do we know the deaf person was really deaf in the first place? Maybe they could hear the entire time! It's not as if I can literally see any physical changes in the ears! Furthermore, medical imaging and lab tests can be counterfeited.
Of course, all this would be quite unreasonable, to say the least. But that's the kind of standard some cessationists would apply to medical evidence and testimonies involving miracles.
I'm not at all suggesting we move to the other extreme. It'd be naive if we always accepted every single report at face value. At best, we'd be gullible dupes. However, there's a reasonable middle ground to be found.
Saturday, February 15, 2020
Caught on camera
I'd add, at the risk of stating the obvious, that not all medical conditions are visible to a cellphone camera. Deafness is invisible. Many diseases are invisible, or only detectable via scanning internal anatomy, or lab work.
Furthermore, unless they were expecting a miracle, there's no reason they'd have cameras running in advance to capture the event as it happened.
Finally, if you're going to be that skeptical, it's also possible to fabricate photographic evidence.
Friday, February 14, 2020
Credulous Christians and knee-jerk skeptics
The miracles of Jesus and the apostles were routinely public, undeniable, & well-attested by multiple eyewitnesses. Even Jesus’ most determined adversaries couldn’t argue that the miracles were faked. They therefore raised doubts about the source of his power (Mt. 12:24).Miracles such as those done by Jesus and the apostles are NOT occurring in charismatic circles today. Simple honesty SHOULD compel even the most doctrinaire continuationists to admit that no one today is doing what the apostles did in Acts 5:12; 9:33-42; 19:11-12; etc.Yet unverified and unverifiable claims are routinely made by charismatics. Tales are regularly told that, when investigated, turn out to be false.That’s why spiritually sane people don’t automatically swallow stories like the one Francis Chan told last week at Moody.When someone tells a fantastic tale like “Everyone I touched was healed!”—asking for evidence is NOT sinful unbelief. (Especially when the person telling the tale is a theological drifter.)Jesus commanded us to have that flavor of skepticism. Mt 24:24; Lk 21:8.Yes, I saw it: Francis Chan going full faith healer at Moody Bible Institute’s Founder’s Week—on the platform of Moody Church.I used to live in that part of Chicago. There’s a hospital close by with a full ward of terminally ill children. Do you think he’ll pay them a visit?
“Believe truth!” “Shun error!”—these, we see, are two materially different laws; and by choosing between them we may color differently our whole intellectual life. We may regard the chase for truth as paramount, and the avoidance of error as secondary; or we may, on the other hand, treat the avoidance of error as more imperative, and let truth take its chance. Clifford, in the instructive passage which I have quoted, exhorts us to the latter course. Believe nothing, he tells us, keep your mind in suspense for ever, rather than by closing it on insufficient evidence incur the awful risk of believing lies. You, on the other hand, may think that the risk of being in error is a very small matter when compared with the blessings of real knowledge, and be ready to be duped many times in your investigation rather than postpone indefinitely the chance of guessing true...For my own part, I have also a horror of being duped. But I can believe that worse things than being duped may happen to a man in this world...
Indeed, well-documented modern miracles lend credibility to biblical miracles. They don't only happen in old stories.
Power evangelism
Tuesday, January 21, 2020
Francis Chan at the Catholic Ecumenical Track
Saturday, January 11, 2020
Is a Bird in the Chan worth two in the bush?
Michael F. Bird@mbird12Okay, those bagging Francis Chan for having a high view of the Lord supper, mostly nondenominational and low church Evangelicals, regard catholicity as a swearword and have a view of the sacraments that is mere memorialism heading into christological docetism.
Paul declares that the Lord's supper is a "participation" (κοινωνία) in Jesus' body and blood. You cannot participate in what is not real or not present. See 1 Cor 10:15-16!
Some evangelicals believe in the doctrine of the real absence of Jesus, wherever Jesus is, he's nowhere near the bread and the wine, better to leave Jesus' presence outside the celebration, or else we might turn Catholic.
Sunday, January 05, 2020
A little knowledge is a dangerous thing
I didn't know that for the first 1500 years of church history, everyone saw it as the literal body and blood of Christ. And it wasn't until 500 years ago that someone popularized the thought that it's just a symbol and nothing more.It was at that same time that for the first time someone put a pulpit in the front of the gathering. Because before that it was always the body and blood of Christ that was central to the gatherings. For 1500 years it was never one guy and his pulpit being the center of the church. It was the body and blood of Christ, and even the leaders just saw themselves as partakers.Because the church is more divided than at anytime in history…and for a thousand years there was just one church. We're so used to growing up in a time when literally there are over 30,000 Christian denominations right now. Yet for the first thousand years there was just one.What's interesting is that communion was at the center of the room every time they gathered. And it wasn't a pulpit where a guy preached.There was something about taking communion out of the center of the church and replace it a gifted speaker. But the Body itself needs to be back in the center of the church.
Sunday, July 14, 2019
Justin & Rachel
Francis Chan shares an answered prayer:
Several other answered prayers: