This article and the recent Chau tragedy have got me wondering about a far out hypothetical. I’m curious as to your feedback, Steve.
Let’s say that a rich dude snaps one day, gathers an army and surrounds the Sentinelese’s Island with an impenetrable wall. For the next seven decades he uses technology to convince the Sentinelese that he is a prophet and presents them with an exacts replica of the Christian faith, only that the saviors name is Stan and he was hung in early 20th century Georgia.
Of course the people who believe this nonsense are sinners deserving death. But if you were to somehow, one day, break the barrier and go and present the Gospel to them, asking them why they won’t believe, they would say they see no reason to. They have access to the same reasoning as all other image bearers, but not the data. Admittedly, as sinners, access to the day at wouldn’t matter, but just roll with it.
Perhaps an answer would be, as you’ve suggested in other contexts, that these people play a bigger roll in God’s plan. That second-order goods might flow what happened to them.
Now suppose we move into another scenario. Suppose the earth, as in much awesome science fiction, is actually the lost colony of an ancient human empire that spanned the cosmos. Of course the people of earth have forgotten their ancient past.
One day a demon, for this universe is, just as ours, the creation of a God we can reason to using things like transcendental arguments for logic and morality, comes upon earth. This demon, using his powers, fools the Israelites and early Christians into believing Christianity is true.
Now in actual fact the truth in this universe is, as in the Sentinelese example, is that there was a savior, and he did pay a penalty for sin, but somewhere far away and at a different time, with a different context. Of course this all happens to the earth people that good might be done in other ways in Gods plan.
But how would the earth people know? If cosmic missionaries came to earth, and asked why we don’t believe, we might say we see no reason to believe. This has always been my standard reply to any variations of the all powerful demon scenario. But this example has unique problems that I’ve never seen addressed before.
Presuppositionally these people could know that there is, in fact, a God, but they’d be unable to attain the specifics of who that God is.
If the demon is powerful enough to fool people into thinking Christianity is true (and there'd be nothing we could do about this Cartesian demon if so), even though Christianity truly is true (since we are all part of this ancient human empire), and God designed it this way so that "good might be done in other ways in God's plan", then wouldn't the joke be on the demon?
Wouldn't it be more the case that these "cosmic missionaries" arriving on Earth are akin to modern missionaries arriving in some far away and long lost tribe only to find strong parallels between their earth-bound "Christian" beliefs and true cosmic Christianity? At worst, maybe something along the lines of Don Richardson's Peace Child, where the cosmic missionaries could use parallels in their culture and the Bible to argue for Christianity?
Look, Epistle, I see on your page that your favorite show of Firefly, so I respect you as a true fellow geek.
The interesting question, or at least I thought it was, is when does Christianity become Christianity in these fanciful scenarios?
Would it be enough for the stranded humans in either scenario to have some vague notion of a redeemer myth? But our faith is intimately tied to the social historical contexts of the ancient Levant and Greco-Roman worlds.
So the demon’s religion wouldn’t be the same religion as that of the ancient human empire. Close enough, perhaps, to help fool the people, but not the same. So they’re all lost. A truly diabolical plot.
Perhaps a poorly constructed epistemological thought experiment, but I found it intriguing!
"Look, Epistle, I see on your page that your favorite show of Firefly, so I respect you as a true fellow geek."
Nice to see another browncoat! Respek. Fist bump? :)
"The interesting question, or at least I thought it was, is when does Christianity become Christianity in these fanciful scenarios? Would it be enough for the stranded humans in either scenario to have some vague notion of a redeemer myth? But our faith is intimately tied to the social historical contexts of the ancient Levant and Greco-Roman worlds. So the demon’s religion wouldn’t be the same religion as that of the ancient human empire. Close enough, perhaps, to help fool the people, but not the same. So they’re all lost. A truly diabolical plot. Perhaps a poorly constructed epistemological thought experiment, but I found it intriguing!"
1. It's often fun to play with different ideas and come up with different thought experiments like you said. I guess we could do that forever. We could concoct all sorts of thought experiments including thought experiments that gainsay Christianity to one degree or another. But I expect we eventually have to deal with reality as it is, as you alluded to ("the social historical contexts of the ancient Levant and Greco-Roman worlds"), rather than whatever clever flights of fancy we can imagine.
2. As we know, Christianity is a revealed religion. If God never revealed himself to us, we wouldn't know much about him. Short of what's in the world or universe. General revelation. I suppose it'd be like the Athenians at the Areopagus in Acts 17. God's fingerprints are everywhere in creation (e.g. cue arguments from design), but there's only so far we could go before we hit a hard barrier. At least I would think we might be able to know something like the God of classical theism exists, but not much more, not without God revealing himself to us. As such, we might try to "feel" our way toward God, but we'd be ignorant about him or anything he didn't choose to reveal to us. The true God might well be an "unknown" God to us.
3. As you've suggested, we're working against the world, the flesh, and the devil. (As an aside, if it hasn't already been done, it might be interesting to do a biblical theological study of the powers and principalities and spiritual warfare in the Pauline epistles (e.g. Rom 8, Eph 6).) Speaking of the flesh, of ourselves, we're fallen creatures. We may have the sensus divinitatis by virtue of being made in the image of God, but even so our sensus might not be functioning properly. In fact, it might be malfunctioning. Our knowledge of ourselves, of the world around us, of God himself, might be clouded or corrupted. So there are seemingly insurmountable barriers.
4. And, of course, it's not mere knowledge that ultimately saves, but God regenerating us. Making us into radically "new creatures".
That's my take at any rate, but I'm no theologian or philosopher, so maybe I'm wrong-headed about some or most or even all of this.
This article and the recent Chau tragedy have got me wondering about a far out hypothetical. I’m curious as to your feedback, Steve.
ReplyDeleteLet’s say that a rich dude snaps one day, gathers an army and surrounds the Sentinelese’s Island with an impenetrable wall. For the next seven decades he uses technology to convince the Sentinelese that he is a prophet and presents them with an exacts replica of the Christian faith, only that the saviors name is Stan and he was hung in early 20th century Georgia.
Of course the people who believe this nonsense are sinners deserving death. But if you were to somehow, one day, break the barrier and go and present the Gospel to them, asking them why they won’t believe, they would say they see no reason to. They have access to the same reasoning as all other image bearers, but not the data. Admittedly, as sinners, access to the day at wouldn’t matter, but just roll with it.
Perhaps an answer would be, as you’ve suggested in other contexts, that these people play a bigger roll in God’s plan. That second-order goods might flow what happened to them.
ReplyDeleteNow suppose we move into another scenario. Suppose the earth, as in much awesome science fiction, is actually the lost colony of an ancient human empire that spanned the cosmos. Of course the people of earth have forgotten their ancient past.
One day a demon, for this universe is, just as ours, the creation of a God we can reason to using things like transcendental arguments for logic and morality, comes upon earth. This demon, using his powers, fools the Israelites and early Christians into believing Christianity is true.
Now in actual fact the truth in this universe is, as in the Sentinelese example, is that there was a savior, and he did pay a penalty for sin, but somewhere far away and at a different time, with a different context. Of course this all happens to the earth people that good might be done in other ways in Gods plan.
But how would the earth people know? If cosmic missionaries came to earth, and asked why we don’t believe, we might say we see no reason to believe. This has always been my standard reply to any variations of the all powerful demon scenario. But this example has unique problems that I’ve never seen addressed before.
Presuppositionally these people could know that there is, in fact, a God, but they’d be unable to attain the specifics of who that God is.
So then, how would they know either way?
If the demon is powerful enough to fool people into thinking Christianity is true (and there'd be nothing we could do about this Cartesian demon if so), even though Christianity truly is true (since we are all part of this ancient human empire), and God designed it this way so that "good might be done in other ways in God's plan", then wouldn't the joke be on the demon?
DeleteWouldn't it be more the case that these "cosmic missionaries" arriving on Earth are akin to modern missionaries arriving in some far away and long lost tribe only to find strong parallels between their earth-bound "Christian" beliefs and true cosmic Christianity? At worst, maybe something along the lines of Don Richardson's Peace Child, where the cosmic missionaries could use parallels in their culture and the Bible to argue for Christianity?
I bind that demon in the name of Benny Hinn!
DeleteLook, Epistle, I see on your page that your favorite show of Firefly, so I respect you as a true fellow geek.
DeleteThe interesting question, or at least I thought it was, is when does Christianity become Christianity in these fanciful scenarios?
Would it be enough for the stranded humans in either scenario to have some vague notion of a redeemer myth? But our faith is intimately tied to the social historical contexts of the ancient Levant and Greco-Roman worlds.
So the demon’s religion wouldn’t be the same religion as that of the ancient human empire. Close enough, perhaps, to help fool the people, but not the same. So they’re all lost. A truly diabolical plot.
Perhaps a poorly constructed epistemological thought experiment, but I found it intriguing!
faith alchemist
Delete"Look, Epistle, I see on your page that your favorite show of Firefly, so I respect you as a true fellow geek."
Nice to see another browncoat! Respek. Fist bump? :)
"The interesting question, or at least I thought it was, is when does Christianity become Christianity in these fanciful scenarios? Would it be enough for the stranded humans in either scenario to have some vague notion of a redeemer myth? But our faith is intimately tied to the social historical contexts of the ancient Levant and Greco-Roman worlds. So the demon’s religion wouldn’t be the same religion as that of the ancient human empire. Close enough, perhaps, to help fool the people, but not the same. So they’re all lost. A truly diabolical plot. Perhaps a poorly constructed epistemological thought experiment, but I found it intriguing!"
1. It's often fun to play with different ideas and come up with different thought experiments like you said. I guess we could do that forever. We could concoct all sorts of thought experiments including thought experiments that gainsay Christianity to one degree or another. But I expect we eventually have to deal with reality as it is, as you alluded to ("the social historical contexts of the ancient Levant and Greco-Roman worlds"), rather than whatever clever flights of fancy we can imagine.
2. As we know, Christianity is a revealed religion. If God never revealed himself to us, we wouldn't know much about him. Short of what's in the world or universe. General revelation. I suppose it'd be like the Athenians at the Areopagus in Acts 17. God's fingerprints are everywhere in creation (e.g. cue arguments from design), but there's only so far we could go before we hit a hard barrier. At least I would think we might be able to know something like the God of classical theism exists, but not much more, not without God revealing himself to us. As such, we might try to "feel" our way toward God, but we'd be ignorant about him or anything he didn't choose to reveal to us. The true God might well be an "unknown" God to us.
3. As you've suggested, we're working against the world, the flesh, and the devil. (As an aside, if it hasn't already been done, it might be interesting to do a biblical theological study of the powers and principalities and spiritual warfare in the Pauline epistles (e.g. Rom 8, Eph 6).) Speaking of the flesh, of ourselves, we're fallen creatures. We may have the sensus divinitatis by virtue of being made in the image of God, but even so our sensus might not be functioning properly. In fact, it might be malfunctioning. Our knowledge of ourselves, of the world around us, of God himself, might be clouded or corrupted. So there are seemingly insurmountable barriers.
4. And, of course, it's not mere knowledge that ultimately saves, but God regenerating us. Making us into radically "new creatures".
That's my take at any rate, but I'm no theologian or philosopher, so maybe I'm wrong-headed about some or most or even all of this.