At the time of writing, Catholic bishops in America are denouncing the Obama administration’s policy that requires Catholic institutions to provide health insurance which covers sterilization, artificial contraception, and the morning-after pill.
The policy was formulated by HHS secretary Kathleen Sabelius. It’s supported by Nancy Pelosi.
But here’s the catch: Sebelius is Catholic. Pelosi is Catholic. Vice President Biden is Catholic.
What’s the point of having a hierarchical accountability system in which the laity is accountable to the episcopate if bishops refuse to hold the laity accountable? The bishops are like permissive indulgent parents who complain about their misbehaving kids, but never do anything to them. The bishops are ninnies rather than nannies.
Amen. The bishops (at least, some of them) have really let down the faithful.
ReplyDeleteFr Z, a major Catholic blogger, just posted similar thoughts:
http://wdtprs.com/blog/2012/02/nancy-pelosi-%E2%80%98i-am-going-to-stick-with-fellow-catholics%E2%80%99-in-pres-obamas-war-on-catholics-wherein-fr-z-rants/
Thanks for caring about the non-Catholic employees this legislation is actually about. Oh wait, you only care about Christians...not all the people that a President of all the people of the United States has to care about. There's your problem.
ReplyDeleteBen,
ReplyDeleteThanks for caring about the Christian workers this legislation will offend and cause to violate their principles. Oh wait, you only care about non-Christians... not all the people that a President of all the people of the United States has to care about. There's your problem.
Good one! Is your response really just the opposite with no justification? I care about both, but the Catholics need to recognize they've already compromised by hiring non-Catholics. The non-Catholics they've hired are already spending their money on whatever they want whether the Catholics agree with it or not. Hence, the Catholic argument from conscience is the equivalent of being on a long trip and the brother and sister complaining in the back seat, "He/she is looking at me!"
ReplyDeleteBen,
ReplyDeleteIt's not a matter of "caring about." That's utterly irrelevant and a blatant appeal to emotion.
Religious liberty is a foundational and inviolable right.
Compelling Christian institutions to provide materials and services they find morally objectionable and contrary to their faith is a clear violation of the First Amendment.
This is not even a matter of two conflicting rights. Freedom of religion is constitutional, whereas there exists no right to healthcare, never mind a right to particular contraceptives and abortofacients.
Furthermore, Christians are not the only religious folks who find this objectionable. Many Muslims and Jews are hand-in-hand with the churches.
Guess what, we all live in a pluralistic society where our tax dollars are spent on things we don't approve of. I don't agree that religious institutions should have tax exempt status unless they can prove they are doing something legit for the community. I don't approve of the wars we've participated in. Where did my taxes go? Every penny I will ever pay to the government has been thrown away on things I don't agree with a thousand times over. A drop in the bucket of unfortunate decisions of the past. Catholics can suck it up like adults. If they want their rights respected, they have to respect the rights of others to disagree with them.
ReplyDeleteYou provided no justification for your initial comment. So why can't I state mine without justification?
ReplyDeleteThe line of reasoning you used could easily be turned around and used in the opposite direction. That's what I did.
Now if you want to use a different tactic fine...
I care about both too. But the non-Catholics need to recognize they've already compromised by working for Catholics.
As for the rest of your comment, you'll have to explain in more detail what you're getting at.
Guess what, we all live in a pluralistic society where our tax dollars are spent on things we don't approve of. I don't agree that religious institutions should have tax exempt status unless they can prove they are doing something legit for the community. I don't approve of the wars we've participated in. Where did my taxes go? Every penny I will ever pay to the government has been thrown away on things I don't agree with a thousand times over. A drop in the bucket of unfortunate decisions of the past. Catholics can suck it up like adults. If they want their rights respected, they have to respect the rights of others to disagree with them.
ReplyDeleteGuess what? This is going to be my new reply to any atheist who complains about state taxes being used to support churches.
I don't actually have a problem with that. However, that doesn't do anything for the issue here. You've conceded the argument.
ReplyDeleteNo, you've just left the issue hanging in mid-air.
ReplyDeleteYou've said C should accept a policy that violates their conscience because there are already such policies that violate lots of people's consciences everyday.
Besides this just being a dumb argument, whats to keep me from saying it should be non-C?
You obviously DO have a problem with that type of reasoning, as evidenced by your initial complaint that non-C should have their conscience (of the right to subsidized access to things like the morning after pill) violated by C.
ReplyDeleteIt's the whole contract with the rest of the country when Catholics hire non-Catholics. Not everyone agrees with Catholics and the definition of "health care" isn't theirs to define for everyone. If we just went with Catholic sensibilities, we'd just have another group (a non-Catholic one) complaining that their rights were being violated (for having limited access to what they would call health care). The Obama administration made a choice that makes the most sense.
ReplyDeleteCatholics are making contracts with the whole country when they hire non-Catholics?
ReplyDeleteWhere is your argument for this?
That means they are making a contract with me too, right? I'm a non-Catholic, but I side with the Catholics that they shouldn't have to provide said services.
Not everyone agrees with your definition of "health care" and it's not just the Catholics. '
So it's not just Catholic sensibilities. Nothing you've said has shown that the Obama admin. made the choice that makes the most sense.
To the Roman Catholics:
ReplyDeleteWhy doesn't the Roman Catholic Church excommunicate these disgraces?
And don’t forget this guy: http://canonlawblog.wordpress.com/2012/02/07/nancy-pelosi-deserves-to-be-taken-seriously-very-seriously/
ReplyDeleteHi, Rhology.
Come worship with us side-by-side in the Catholic Church and help us fight the good fight in love. I sent an email to Pelosi’s bishop a little over two years ago. I didn’t hear back from him, but I did hear back from Bishop Tobin’s office.
With love in Christ,
Pete
From: Karen Davis
Sent: Wednesday, November 18, 2009 10:31 AM
To: 'Pete Holter'
Subject: RE: Praise God for Bishop Tobin!
Thank you for taking the time to share your comments. Your message will be shared with the Bishop.
God bless.
From: Pete Holter
Sent: Wednesday, November 11, 2009 11:33 AM
To: kdavis@dioceseofprovidence.org
Cc: 'Jason Callaway'
Subject: Praise God for Bishop Tobin!
Your Excellency!
Thank you so much for not letting Representative Kennedy’s words go unchecked. You make me grateful to be a Catholic and you strengthen my witness to our non Catholic brothers and sisters in Christ. Thank you for your faithful witness to the truth (cf. John 18:37). Just earlier this week I sent an email to Nancy Pelosi’s Archbishop, asking him to bear a similar witness, and God answered my desires through you. I append that email below. I will be thanking God for you in my prayers. May more and more Bishops follow you in your valiant display of courage. Thank you so much and may the LORD be with your spirit!
Your little brother in Christ,
Pete Holter
Email to Archbishop Niederauer:
Your Grace,
Greetings in the LORD!
Jesus has placed you as a holy shepherd over Nancy Pelosi, and her support for the murder of our babies here in America is notorious. I was reading the writings of St. John Chrysostom, and I was stirred in my spirit by his words. I thought that they would be an encouragement for you as well. It was when Judas (unworthily disposed) received the LORD in the Eucharist that Satan entered into him (cf. John 13:27). I encourage you to bar her from receiving Jesus as it is to her own destruction and the cause of scandal for so many that she now receives Him. Please grant her this mercy, that her “spirit may be saved in the Day of the Lord” (1 Cor. 5:5). I have no place to instruct you, but I hope you will find the time to consider and heed this solemn warning from a Doctor of the Church. May you be richly blessed in your ministry and may you effectively win souls for our Lord!
Respectfully submitted,
Pete Holter
[Here I appended a large section from John Chrysostom’s, Homily 82 on Matthew.]
***Guess what, we all live in a pluralistic society where our tax dollars are spent on things we don't approve of.***
ReplyDeleteThe right to freedom of religion is precisely the reason we have a pluralistic society! Without it, the government can establish one religion (or one philosophy or one way of life or whatever) above and to the exclusion of all others.
Anyway, this mandate effects even those institutions which do not receive government funds, so your moving sermon about tax dollars and your wounded conscience is irrelevant.
***I don't agree that religious institutions should have tax exempt status unless they can prove they are doing something legit for the community.***
Oh, sure, to hell with three and a half centuries of American jurisprudence.
And who, pray tell, would make that decision? The local chapter of Americans United Against Religion?
***If they want their rights respected, they have to respect the rights of others to disagree with them.***
I forgot the amendment that protects the right to contraception.
Just because you feel entitled to something does not mean you have a "right." The healthcare mandate must square with the Constitution. It doesn't, and I expect that eventually, if the administration does not step down, the Supreme Court will reaffirm the conscience clause.
Pete,
ReplyDeleteSo you didn't hear back from them and you want me to come to a church where the hierarchy ignores those who are concerned about baby murder? No thanks.
So... in your case, is that it? You send an email, get ignored? And this is the church that is unified under the truth of Jesus Christ?
It's now making some sense, noodles and lashes! :) or :(?
ReplyDeleteRhology wrote, “So you didn’t hear back from them and you want me to come to a church where the hierarchy ignores those who are concerned about baby murder? No thanks.
ReplyDelete“So... in your case, is that it? You send an email, get ignored? And this is the church that is unified under the truth of Jesus Christ?”
Hey Rhology!
I’m not sure what Archbishop Niederauer has done or what type of pastoral care Nancy Pelosi has received from him. We know that they met some time ago about these types of concerns, but that’s all I know.
Cardinal Wuerl has said that he follows the lead of the hometown bishop when it comes to politicians (which would be Niederauer in the case of Pelosi), and that he himself, if I remember correctly, prefers a “long-term” pastoral approach. And I do not think that “long-term” is a euphemism for “inaction” in his case. Cardinal Wuerl recently led us on a march to the local abortion clinic for prayer. I was very grateful to God that night that we were not sheep without a shepherd. Here’s the story with a cameo from… the Holters! :)
With love in Christ,
Pete
“As the candlelight procession wound its way back to the church, the last group of marchers included Pete Holter, who carried his one-year-old son and guided his other three little boys, ages 6, 4 and 3, along the sidewalk. Holter, whose wife was unable to join the march, attends St. Mary Parish in Hagerstown with his family. When he heard about the candlelight prayer vigil, ‘I thought I’ve got to get the boys out here,’ and they made the one-hour drive to the Mass and procession.
“Holter, who works as a quality analyst for a highway construction company, said, ‘We wanted to witness for Jesus’ and pray for life, for the unborn children and their mothers.
“ ‘Everything is depending on our prayers,’ said the father, as he carefully shepherded his young sons on the path back to the church. Their prayers, he said, were especially directed toward the mothers who are drawn to that clinic. ‘We’re praying for them,’ he said. ‘We want them to know we love them, and we are praying for their babies’ ” (http://www.cathstan.org/main.asp?SectionID=2&SubSectionID=27&ArticleID=4885).
And for my part, I'm sure what sort of "care" Pelosi SHOULD receive - excommunication.
ReplyDeleteShe'd've been gone from my church years ago. That says something.
On top of Pelosi and Sebelius we also have John Kerry, Joe Biden, Dennis Kucinich, Dick Durbin and, until his passing, Ted Kennedy. That list is by no means exhaustive. So it is hardly a fluke, just a case of pro-abortion catholics slipping through the cracks. My church certainly would have excommunicated these wicked men. Why hasn't the One True Church done anything? Even by the RCC's own standards, it has proven itself incompetent to carry out discipline against even this most public and egregious sin.
ReplyDeleteWhat is more, Roman Catholics as a whole are culpable for Obama's election and therefore for the solidifcation of Roe v. Wade resulting from his 2 Supreme Court picks. Consider: http://www.catholicvote.org/discuss/index.php?p=25177
Non-abortifacient contraception is a Catholic bugaboo (despite the fact that the majority of Catholic women use it). Most people here don't take issue with it. That being said, I'm uncertain how contraception can be deemed medically necessary in most cases, anyhow, and I've no idea how the government can dictate what must be covered by a private health care provider when it comes to these types of elective drugs.
ReplyDeleteWhy not force them to cover nose jobs? "Hey, I need it for my self esteem ya know ... "
It's an overreach. And I voted for Obama.
Roman Catholics typically don't like to upset wealthy contributors and Christian principles resist the hedging of bets in their defense.
ReplyDeleteHi Rhology!
ReplyDeleteYou wrote that “[s]he’d’ve been gone from my church years ago. That says something.”
I know that you’re aware that the purpose of excommunication is repentance and restoration, but please consider this purpose in light of the way you’ve expressed yourself here.
The Catholic Church has a lot to consider when excommunicating someone. Consider Luther and the present, personal division between you and me, and between many millions of others over the past 500 years. Please also consider that Jesus was aware that Judas was stealing money from the apostolic mission over the course of time, but He allowed it to happen and didn’t remove Judas from his position within the college of the twelve. We see the end faced by Judas; Nancy Pelosi’s story isn’t over yet. Please come bear the burden of sin with us in love and pray with us, “How long, O LORD!”
My own bishop here in the Baltimore Archdiocese is the one who defeated the City of Baltimore in court when they tried to require pregnancy centers to advertize that they don’t offer abortions: http://www.lifesitenews.com/news/pro-life-victory-for-baltimore-pregnancy-center-sign-ordinance-deemed-uncon/. I get regular emails from the Maryland Catholic Conference making me aware of political issues of moral concern to Catholics that I might want to take action on: http://www.mdcathcon.org/.
We also have a true Catholic running for president in Rick Santorum. May God keep him faithful to His cause.
With love in Christ,
Pete
The Catholic Church has a lot to consider when excommunicating someone.
ReplyDeleteToo much, apparently.
The NT lays out obvious and fairly simple excommunication requirements, procedures, and considerations.
The RCC, surprise surprise, has preferred to complicate and obfuscate matters.
Please also consider that Jesus was aware that Judas was stealing money from the apostolic mission over the course of time, but He allowed it to happen and didn’t remove Judas from his position within the college of the twelve.
The RCC is not Jesus, and Pelosi is not Judas.
We have specific instructions in the NT. RCC is not following them, not even close. It's as simple as that.
Please come bear the burden of sin with us in love and pray with us, “How long, O LORD!”
Very pious-sounding, but 1 Corinthians 5 is a higher authority than your dirge.
3For I, on my part, though absent in body but present in spirit, have already judged him who has so committed this, as though I were present. 4In the name of our Lord Jesus, when you are assembled, and I with you in spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus, 5I have decided to deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of his flesh, so that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.
6Your boasting is not good. Do you not know that a little leaven leavens the whole lump of dough? 7Clean out the old leaven so that you may be a new lump, just as you are in fact unleavened. For Christ our Passover also has been sacrificed. 8Therefore let us celebrate the feast, not with old leaven, nor with the leaven of malice and wickedness, but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.
9I wrote you in my letter not to associate with immoral people; 10I did not at all mean with the immoral people of this world, or with the covetous and swindlers, or with idolaters, for then you would have to go out of the world. 11But actually, I wrote to you not to associate with any so-called brother if he is an immoral person, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or a swindler—not even to eat with such a one. 12For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Do you not judge those who are within the church? 13But those who are outside, God judges. REMOVE THE WICKED MAN FROM AMONG YOURSELVES.
Pete: “Please come bear the burden of sin with us in love and pray with us, ‘How long, O LORD!’ ”
ReplyDeleteRhology: “Very pious-sounding, but 1 Corinthians 5 is a higher authority than your dirge.
I didn’t intend to imply that Nancy Pelosi shouldn’t be excommunicated or otherwise disciplined. I asked her archbishop to bar her from receiving Christ in the Eucharist, and I am asking you to fight for her excommunication while in communion with me, if excommunication is what you think she deserves. But please pray for her conversion before you do. I will send the archdiocese another email on this subject.
Please also keep in mind that anyone who kills babies is automatically excommunicated from the Catholic Church.
With love in Christ,
Pete
Please also keep in mind that anyone who kills babies is automatically excommunicated from the Catholic Church.
ReplyDeleteWhat about those who consistently vote for its legality? Seems like an open-shut case to me.
And actually, I'm rather pleased that RCC doesn't excomm such ppl as Pelosi, for that's just one more indicator of the evil and falsehood of the RCC.