http://arminianperspectives.wordpress.com/2010/05/19/fallacies-of-calvinist-apologetics-fallacy-8-calvinism-doesnt-charge-god-with-the-authorship-of-sin/#comment-4693
Here's one unfortunate conclusion we can draw from the above:
- Therefore, God is not the forgiver of sin.
Quit usin that new-fangled lawgik! It's no fair usin lawgik in a fight wi' 'minians. Theys can't unnerstan it.
ReplyDeleteWell, Peter, quite close to my thinking there.
ReplyDeleteI would say this stuff is creepy, that that slw writes! I just don't understand why. I hold to these verses:
1Th 5:22 Abstain from all appearance of evil.
1Th 5:23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
1Th 5:24 Faithful is he that calleth you, who also will do it.
I just can't seem to get around God's Faithfulness!
If new words are not good enough, how about old ones?
Psa 139:8 If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there.
Psa 139:9 If I take the wings of the morning, and dwell in the uttermost parts of the sea;
Psa 139:10 Even there shall thy hand lead me, and thy right hand shall hold me.
Psa 139:11 If I say, Surely the darkness shall cover me; even the night shall be light about me.
Psa 139:12 Yea, the darkness hideth not from thee; but the night shineth as the day: the darkness and the light are both alike to thee.
Psa 139:13 For thou hast possessed my reins: thou hast covered me in my mother's womb.
Also,
ReplyDeleteJob 20:27 The heavens will reveal his iniquity, and the earth will rise up against him.
Job 20:28 The possessions of his house will be carried away, dragged off in the day of God's wrath.
Job 20:29 This is the wicked man's portion from God, the heritage decreed for him by God."
Arminians, compare that to Psalm 139.
Glad to give you occasion, Peter, to try out yer hillbilly aksent, and to give natamllc a "Stephen King moment."
ReplyDeleteWhat is the basis for the forgiveness of sins?
Heb 9:22 ...without shedding of blood there is no remission
Matt 26:28 this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.
Rom 8:3 God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful man to be a sin offering. And so he condemned sin in sinful man.
That God judged sin in Jesus Christ.
SLW, the claim I quoted from you doesn't allow you to wiggle out. I agree God judges sin and I agree he forgives it. You, however, made it clear that he only judges. You are free to conceed that in your excitment you spoke falsely, but what you're not (logically) free to do is keep your original claim and then claim, at the same time, that it is false that God is only the judge of sin.
ReplyDeleteOne is predicated on the other. But you are right, that discussion was getting frustrating, and I made the comment a bit agitated. I could have been more inclusive and judicious with my statement, but I still stand by it, ticky-tack rules of logic or not.
ReplyDeleteIt doesn't matter than "one is predicated upon the other," whatever that means. Also, if you still stand by your statement, then you must believe Scripture is false. Scripture teaches that Jesus stands in a relationship to sin that you statement excludes. Also curious is your remark about "ticky tacky" rules of logic. Don't you think God is logical? Doesn't God care about how we reason? Isn't there such a thing as the noetic effects of sin? Wouldn't it be much easier to admit your error and rephrase your statement rather than take shots at logic, which seems extreme. It might look to one like a case of extreme pride. You are right no matter what, logic be damned!
ReplyDeleteSLW SAID:
ReplyDelete"That discussion was getting frustrating, and I made the comment a bit agitated."
Perhaps hardcore Arminianism is making you more prideful and hostile. Doctrine can have consequences. Perhaps the false doctrine of indeterminism is producing bad fruit in you, particularly in the form that regards the world as a runaway train.
Steve,
ReplyDeleteThat was actually amusing. Well done.
Paul,
Forgiveness of sin is predicated upon the sacrifice of Christ. God acted as judge condemning sin in Christ, so our sins could be remitted. Without that judgment there could be no forgiveness of sin.
Any rephrasing of my statement is not going to change the issue at hand, nonetheless, if it gets rid of some baggage:
"The Bible makes it quite clear that God is, in fact, not the author but the judge of sin."
Now do I have to say, "uncle" too to get past the jots and tittles?
SLW,
ReplyDeleteWhy would you have to say uncle to get past the jots and tittles? I am confused about the responses I'm getting given that I merely quoted your own words and drew a logical conclusion from them.