Responding to Dan

Dan asked:

Peter: re: Regeneration prior to faith
Titus 3:5 5(A)He saved us, (B)not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but (C)according to His mercy, by the (D)washing of regeneration and (E)renewing by the Holy Spirit.." We are saved by the washing of regeneration. That, in my opinion, occurs when we receive Christ as articulated in JN. 1:12 "But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become (A)children of God, even (B)to those who believe in His name..." I don't see regeneration as occuring prior to faith. I understand why Calvinism believes this; I just don't think the Bible teaches it. Can you point me to some explicit texts that clearly teach it? Thanks.

First, you could start by dealing with what's already been mentioned about 1 John 5:1. ;-) Never mind, I'll deal with it again below.

As for your quote of Titus 3:5, you are committing a category error. Paul is mentioning specific steps toward a general outcome.

If it helps you to think about it, suppose you have a computer that will transport a signal to launch a rocket when it receives a command to do so. Further suppose that you have a button that instructs the computer to send such a message when it is pressed.

At time (t), you press the button. This causes the computer to send a signal to the rocket. That signal causes the rocket to launch. Which of these following statements is true:

1) The rocket launched because the button was pressed.
2) The rocket launched because the computer sent a signal to launch.
3) The rocket launched because the button sent a signal to a computer.
4) The rocket launched because Dan implemented the launch sequence.

The answer, of course, is that all of them are true. Yet none of them give the same information. However, if we stipulate all of the above four statements are true (and if we further restrict it by saying that there are safeguards in place to guarantee there can be no accidental launches), we can reconstruct the logical order of events. Namely: The rocket launched because Dan pushed a button that sent a signal to a computer that sent a signal to launch. Indeed, using logic like this, you can easily answer the following (assume all statements are true, and that the end result is always produced the same way so you can't have more than one possible path):

1) All Lumin is an effect of Beezles.
2) All Pilter cause Lumin.
3) All Lumin cause Refrax.
4) All Beezles is an effect of Pilter.

What is the logical order of the above?

Obviously we know from the first two points that both Beezles and Pilter precede Lumin. From the third point, we know that Refrax goes after Lumin, so it must also go after Beezles and Pilter. Finally, the fourth row tells us that Beezles comes after Pilter. Thus, the order is Pilter -> Beezles -> Lumin -> Refrax.

You can verify this easily enough.

1) Is Lumin an effect of Beezles in the above chain? Yes.
2) Does Pilter cause Lumin in the above chain? Yes.
3) Does Lumin cause Refrax in the above chain? Yes.
4) Is Beezles an effect of Pilter in the above chain? Yes.

So we know this chain is right.

Now, given that we all agree that the Bible contains true statements about salvation, let us examine them. Obviously, the roughest sketch of salvation would be:

Sinners -> some salvation process -> Christians

But what are the ingredients in that salvation process? Let's toss in all the passages I used in my previous post (which included Titus 3:5 too):

1) He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit, whom he poured out on us generously through Jesus Christ our Savior, so that, having been justified by his grace, we might become heirs having the hope of eternal life (Titus 3:5-7).

2) Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ has been born of God (1 John 5:1)

3) No one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit (John 3:5)

4) If you confess with your mouth, 'Jesus is Lord,' and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved (Romans 10:9)

5) No one can say 'Jesus is Lord' except by the Holy Spirit. (1 Corinthians 12:3)

6) The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned (1 Corinthians 2:14).

These are merely the passages I quoted before. There are more passages that deal with salvation, but most of them will repeat the above. If Dan thinks there's another relevant passage, he is certainly free to post it and we can examine it too.

Now let's try to summarize them a bit to make it easier to compare the concepts. I assume that Dan agrees that regeneration = new birth/rebirth = renewal by the Holy Spirit. So we have:

1) Salvation comes through regeneration.
2) Those who have faith have been regenerated.
3) No one can be saved unless he is regenerated.
4) You must confess Christ as Lord and have faith to be saved.
5) No one can say Christ is Lord except if he has the Spirit.
6) The man without the Spirit thinks spiritual things are foolish.

Now given all these statements are true, what must the logical order be? I will show you without even using the 1 John 1:5 passage (# 2 above)!

We see that 1 and 3 say pretty much the same thing; salvation requires regeneration. So we know that regeneration precedes salvation.

Regeneration -> Salvation

4 tells us that we must confess Christ is Lord and also have faith before we can be saved. So confession and faith precede salvation.

Confession/Faith/Regeneration -> Salvation

5 Tells us that one must have the Spirit before one can confess Christ is lord, so having the Spirit precedes the confession of Christ.

Faith/Regeneration -> Confession -> Salvation

6 Tells us that the man without the Spirit thinks spiritual things are foolish. If one accepts that faith is a spiritual activity, then the man without the Spirit cannot engage in faith. (And really, how can one believe in what one considers foolishness?)

Regeneration -> Faith -> Confession -> Salvation

So now we apply the method back. If Regeneration -> Faith -> Confession -> Salvation is true, let us evaluate the 6 expressions and see if the 6 expression remain true:

1) Salvation comes through regeneration.

This is true in the above. Salvation comes through Regeneration because as soon as Regeneration occurs, the rest inevitably follow.

2) Those who have faith have been regenerated.

True.

3) No one can be saved unless he is regenerated.

True.

4) You must confess Christ as Lord and have faith to be saved.

True.

5) No one can say Christ is Lord except if he has the Spirit.

True.

6) The man without the Spirit thinks spiritual things are foolish.

True.

So Regeneration precedes Faith. But just for fun, what happens if we flip Regeneration and Faith?

Faith -> Regeneration -> Confession -> Salvation

1) Salvation comes through regeneration.

True.

2) Those who have faith have been regenerated.

Potentially False! One has faith first, so one can potentially believe without having been regenerated, which means that it would be FALSE that "Those who have faith have been regenerated." The only way to try to "save" this chain is to say that faith and regeneration coincide temporally. Thus, the instant one has faith, one is regenerated. If there is any time delay at all, 2 is false and that means the Arminian chain is false.

3) No one can be saved unless he is regenerated.

True.

4) You must confess Christ as Lord and have faith to be saved.

True.

5) No one can say Christ is Lord except if he has the Spirit.

True (because the confession comes after regeneration even in the above).

6) The man without the Spirit thinks spiritual things are foolish.

False. The man without the Spirit somehow believes in spiritual truth because faith causes regeneration in the above chain.

So we see that the Arminian is required to hold that faith and regeneration are simultaneous events (something that is not too controversial to hold in and of itself...yet danger lurks!); but also that someone who is without the Spirit can still have faith. 6 is a major weakness to the Arminian position, and unfortunately for the Arminian, we can pile on more proof texts that would agree with 6:

For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit set their minds on the things of the Spirit. For to set the mind on the flesh is death, but to set the mind on the Spirit is life and peace. For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God’s law; indeed, it cannot. Those who are in the flesh cannot please God (Romans 8:5-8).

We see that non-believers cannot please God, nor can they submit to His law. Since it certainly pleases God for someone to exercise faith, then we see once again that faith cannot come before regeneration. It is only the mind already set on the Spirit who can discern spiritual things.

Naturally, with all the texts such as the above, point 6 is a really tempting point to emphasize for the Calvinist. And really, it is sufficient. But more important than that, the Arminian position on point 2 is also in danger. We've already seen that it is potentially false as is; and when we examine the implications of 1 John further, we see that the Arminian position that faith can be temporally simultaneous with regeneration such that faith can logically precede regeneration is fatally flawed.

Though I already pointed this out in my previous post, I will run the following three passages through the logic:

1) Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ has been born of God (1 John 1:5).

2) If you know that he is righteous, you may be sure that everyone who practices righteousness has been born of him (1 John 2:29).

3) No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for God's seed abides in him, and he cannot keep on sinning because he has been born of God (1 John 3:9).

Now again, we see the construct of these passages as follows. Each uses the perfect tense of "born". Each also has an active verb dealing with a present action. The Arminian claim MUST BE that when Paul uses this construct, the active, on-going verb must begin simultaneous to the perfect verb, and also be the cause of that completed verb. So we have the following:

1) Those who have faith have been regenerated.
2) Those who practice righteousness have been regenerated.
3) Those who avoid sin have been regenerated.

For the Arminian, all of these must take place simultaneously with faith. Just as regeneration must be simultaneous (temporally) with faith or else the Arminian has errors, so too must righteousness and avoidance of sin be simultaneous with faith. But not only that, if faith logically causes regeneration, then so too must righteousness and avoidance of sin logically cause regeneration. For faith, righteousness, and avoidance of sin are all treated identically by John in those statements. If something is true for one, it is true for all three.