Recently "Bossmanham" stopped by and graced the comments with his usual unsubstantive rants against Calvinism. So I did something I have never done. I clicked on his name and saw he had a blog. Over at his place I saw a post where he was struggling to reconcile his belief in a God that loves all men in exactly the same way (and whose love is so primary that all other attributes get demoted in the process of magnifying the one that, ironically, is the most appealing to atheists and other God-haters), but yet sends some men to hell. Bossmanham gave the typical Arminian, LFW, answer: "Well, the loving thing is to let his children have what they want."
Really? Is that really the most loving thing to do in all circumstances? I don't think so. Look at the picture above. Perhaps that's a picture of a child who wanted nothing but candy to eat, so his dad gave it to him and didn't take him to the dentist, because his son didn't want to go there. After all, that's the loving thing to do.
No, given Arminians terms, the most loving thing to do is force, if you must, all men to accept Christ, just like a loving father would force his child to not eat so many sweets and go to the dentist, whether the kid wanted to or not.
I fail to find what Arminians like Bossmanham find so persuasive with what looks to be an obviously false position.
Arminians, beware, Universalism looms large on the horizon.
Arminianism is a man-centered doctrine that refuses to let God be God.
ReplyDeleteThe Bible preaches hate. For every one verse about God's mercy, love, compassion, etc., there are two verses about His vengeance, hatred, wrath, etc. The maudlin, kissy-pooh, feel-good, touchy-feely preachers of today's society are damning this nation and this world to hell. They are telling you what you want to hear rather than what you need to hear, just like what happened in the days of Isaiah and Jeremiah: "That this [is] a rebellious people, lying children, children [that] will not hear the law of the LORD: Which say to the seers, See not; and to the prophets, Prophesy not unto us right things, speak unto us smooth things, prophesy deceits: Get you out of the way, turn aside out of the path, cause the Holy One of Israel to cease from before us." Isaiah 30:9-11; "Then the LORD said unto me, The prophets prophesy lies in my name: I sent them not, neither have I commanded them, neither spake unto them: they prophesy unto you a false vision and divination, and a thing of nought, and the deceit of their heart." Jeremiah 14:14; "They have healed also the hurt [of the daughter] of my people slightly, saying, Peace, peace; when [there is] no peace. Were they ashamed when they had committed abomination? nay, they were not at all ashamed, neither could they blush: therefore they shall fall among them that fall: at the time [that] I visit them they shall be cast down, saith the LORD." Jeremiah 6:14-15. And also in the New Testament we are warned: "For there are many unruly and vain talkers and deceivers, specially they of the circumcision: Whose mouths must be stopped, who subvert whole houses, teaching things which they ought not, for filthy lucre's sake. One of themselves, [even] a prophet of their own, said, The Cretians [are] alway liars, evil beasts, slow bellies. This witness is true. Wherefore rebuke them sharply, that they may be sound in the faith." Titus 1:11-13; "But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction. And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of." II Peter 2:1,2.
What you need to hear is that God hates people, and that your chances of going to heaven are nonexistent, unless you repent. What you need to hear is a little fire and brimstone preaching, like Jesus preached. What you don't need to hear is that you're okay just the way you are, and God accepts everyone without exception. Don't listen to the money-grubbing heretic who stands at the front of your church. Listen to God. If you are one of His elect, you'll hear.
"If you are one of His elect, you'll hear."
ReplyDeleteAnd how many are smug enough to assume they ARE one of His elect?
What guarantee does anyone have that they have been elected by this God of hate (apart from their own assumptions)?
Onesimus,
ReplyDeleteYou're making a level confusion. The hypothetical "If you are one of his elect, you will hear" does not entail that "you will know you are elect." Similarly, "If your egg is fertilized by a sperm, you will be pregnant," does not imply that "You will know you are pregnant." That knowledge will come later. Indeed, for some, it comes roughly when the baby is ready to come out."
Furthermore, the Bible itself gives us the evidences from which we can make fruit-to-root inferences about our status. The only response you can give here is to impose some kind of infallibilist constraint on knowledge, which is hightly contentious and highly improbable.
Anita B Day said:
ReplyDeleteThe maudlin, kissy-pooh, feel-good, touchy-feely preachers of today's society are damning this nation and this world to hell.
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No NO NO. Surely that can't be so.
Are you saying that those colourfully described preachers have more authority and power than the God who has allegedly elected who will be saved?
If God hasn't elected those in "this nation and this world" for salvation - then surely it it the lack of election that damns them to hell. What effect can ANY preaching or any preacher have that could counteract what God has already ordained?
Onesimus,
ReplyDeleteFirst off, Anita is a sockpuppet. You'd do best to ignore it.
However, you said:
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If God hasn't elected those in "this nation and this world" for salvation - then surely it it the lack of election that damns them to hell.
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That's flat out wrong. It's their own sin that damns them to hell.
Your statement would be like saying, "If the judge decides to put the theif in prison, it's the judge's decision that causes the prison term" rather than the simple fact that it was the theif's decision to steal that made him culpable in the first place.
You also asked:
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What effect can ANY preaching or any preacher have that could counteract what God has already ordained?
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Your question is again asked due to confusion of what Calvinism is. To answer your question specifically, there is nothing that anyone can do to counteract what God has ordained. However, the presumption behind your question seems to be, "If there is nothing that can be done otherwise, then everything is fatalistic" which is NOT what Calvinism teaches.
God ordains means as well as ends. Indeed, it is the Arminian position that "no matter what you do, God will still work it out for His purpose, just like a cosmic chess player who is better than you will always find ways to win no matter what you choose to play" that is fatalistic. Under the Arminian scheme, you cannot win against your fate because NO MATTER WHAT YOU DO, God will counter your move (else His promises can be invalidated). Indeed, it is for this reason that many Arminians who assert the primacy of LFW ultimately reject Arminianism and become Open Theists.
and whose love is so primary that all other attributes get demoted in the process of magnifying the one that, ironically, is the most appealing to atheists and other God-haters
ReplyDeleteThat's funny, that isn't my position at all. God is as equally loving as He is just. However, God is never described as hate. Hate is not an attribute of God. God is described as love, however (1 John 4:8).
Bossmanham gave the typical Arminian, LFW, answer: "Well, the loving thing is to let his children have what they want."
That's funny, Paul. You attribute a false quote to me. And you ignore the whole context of that post which deals with God's justice more than anything. Ninth commandment, my friend. The fruit is rotten here at Triablogue.
For anyone who wants to see my view of the justice and love of God, you can view the post click here.
And for anyone who wants to see how to construct a Triablogue Manta/Hays-esque argument click here.
BSman,
ReplyDeleteI know you *announce* that the first sentence you quoted is not your position, but actions speak louder than words.
Second, no, it was not a word for word quote. It was the spirit and not the letter of the law. You said it was more loving to send a sinner to hell because that gives him what he wants. There's no substantive difference between what I said and what you said.
Lastly, should I just link to my responses to your friends at indeathorlife? Then we can be even. Refutation by linkage. You're getting better.
"However, God is never described as hate. Hate is not an attribute of God. God is described as love, however (1 John 4:8)."
ReplyDeleteOoooo, teahcer, teacher, he just broke the ninth commandment. Rotton fruit.
Too funny BSman.
And, yes, no verse says, "God is hate." However, verses say that he hates.
"That's flat out wrong. It's their own sin that damns them to hell.
ReplyDeletePeter, surely you mean their God-ordained sin, right? :-)
Where is the tidal wave of Arminians to Universalism? I haven't seen it. Nor have I seen the tidal wave of Arminians to "Rome", as James White suggests in the following youtube clip.
ReplyDeletehttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OQZBoHAmPeA
I think what you have here is smooth sounding rhetoric trumping reality, but I will say one thing, which I have seen first hand, is Calvinists becoming Atheists. Two come to mind.
bossmanham said:
ReplyDelete“That's funny, Paul. You attribute a false quote to me.”
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[onesimus comments]:That’s a tactic I’ve come across many times. Often it will be done by parodying someone’s beliefs, but using quotes to make it seem like the target of the parody has actually said those things.
Such dishonesty needed to protect their God maligning doctrines!!!
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Paul Manata said:
And, yes, no verse says, "God is hate." However, verses say that he hates.
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[onesimus comments]: And who does He hate Paul? Those people He has unconditionally condemned to come into this world in a totally depraved state? Those whom He condemned to hell by NOT unconditionally electing them PRIOR to their creation and therefore PRIOR to any sin in their lives?
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Richard Coords said:
I will say one thing, which I have seen first hand, is Calvinists becoming Atheists. Two come to mind.
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[onesimus comments]: Richard, these people were obviously only preordained to THINK they were Calvinists by a God graciously granting them a false faith – all for His glory of course.
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Peter Pike said:
Onesimus,
First off, Anita is a sockpuppet. [as are ALL mankind according to the Calvinist view of God’s all-controlling sovereignty – onesimus]
you [onesimus] said:
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If God hasn't elected those in "this nation and this world" for salvation - then surely it is the lack of election that damns them to hell.
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That's flat out wrong. It's their own sin that damns them to hell.
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[onesimus comments]: What sin was that Peter? What sin had they committed at the time when God made His “unconditional election” of those who WOULD be saved? Oh yes – their condemnation was established even before mankind had been created and therefore before there was any sin to damn them for. So that brings us back to mankind being damned through their lack of election; through God’s choice alone and not due to sins that time did not yet exist.
That there are not waves of Arminians becoming Universalists, Paul might answer, is because they are blinded to the outcomes of their theology and are, by the grace of God, inconsistent.
ReplyDeleteIf you want consistency, surely they are not blinded by the outcomes of their theology, they would be blinded by that oh so gracious god that decided their destiny before mankind was created.
ReplyDeleteneborg67 said:
ReplyDeletePeter, surely you mean their God-ordained sin, right? :-)
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Neborg67, no, that's that what he means, though that is true. But surely you don't think begging the question against compatibiklists is conducive to healthy discussion? If you did not, then you wouldn't just assume that because person S was determined to do sinful action A, that this means that S didn't A and isn't responsible for Aing.
Onesimus,
ReplyDelete"That’s a tactic I’ve come across many times. Often it will be done by parodying someone’s beliefs, but using quotes to make it seem like the target of the parody has actually said those things.
Such dishonesty needed to protect their God maligning doctrines!!!"
Surely you wouldn't want to be so dishonest as to leave out the relevant part of my comments so as to protect your God-maligning doctrines!!!! If you wouldn't, then you'd need to deal with the claim that I expressed the exact same *proposition*, just not the same *words*.
"And who does He hate Paul? Those people He has unconditionally condemned to come into this world in a totally depraved state? Those whom He condemned to hell by NOT unconditionally electing them PRIOR to their creation and therefore PRIOR to any sin in their lives?".
Sorry, buddy, it's the same here for both Arminianism and Calvinism; expect Arminianism then adds the unbiblical concept of prevenient grace.
And, furthermore, he doesn't condemn someone to hell on the *basis* of their non-elect status, the *basis* is thier sin. Why even come here and tried to converse if you're not going to bother to familiarize yourself with basic Reformed theology and avoid conversation-halting question begging epithets.
Anyway, to answer your question, he hates those he says he hates. If you think he can't do so because of divinely ordaining whatsoever comes to pass, well I think there's not a hairsbreadth of difference between *that* and God hating someone he infallibly believed would be a sinner PRIOR to his creation and his creating them with this belief, thus consigning the actual person to hell because he knew he would never repent. So, all the "attempts" to save this person was simply putting on a show.
Steven said...
ReplyDeleteThat there are not waves of Arminians becoming Universalists, Paul might answer, is because they are blinded to the outcomes of their theology and are, by the grace of God, inconsistent.
7/02/2009 7:28 PM
Or, I would simply point to the contemporary scene and pull the Arminian ut of his bubble and claim: there are waves of Arminians becoming universalists.
And then I'd tell them to put that in their pipe and smoke it. :-)
And then we'd say, "they aren't Arminians anymore then, are they, Paul? Because Arminians don't believe in universalism."
ReplyDeleteGracious this is a tired straw-man.
Paul Manata said:
ReplyDelete“And, furthermore, he doesn't condemn someone to hell on the *basis* of their non-elect status, the *basis* is thier sin. Why even come here and tried to converse if you're not going to bother to familiarize yourself with basic Reformed theology and avoid conversation-halting question begging epithets.”
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Excuse me Paul. WHEN did the fable “Unconditional Election” take place?
BEFORE man was created.
When did man sin? AFTER he was created obviously.
So how can a man be condemned for his sin when there was no sin to be condemned with?
And PAul, I know enough about "Reformed theology" to recognise a theology that some men put on a pedestal and worship.
A theology that some will defend at any cost even to the point of manipulating scripture.
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Paul Manata said:
“I think there's not a hairsbreadth of difference between *that* and God hating someone he infallibly believed would be a sinner PRIOR to his creation and his creating them with this belief, thus consigning the actual person to hell because he knew he would never repent. So, all the "attempts" to save this person was simply putting on a show.”
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Paul, Paul Paul –
What do you think God could do about the sinner that He “infallibly believed would be a sinner PRIOR to his creation”?
Do you think He could foresee the sinner and then choose NOT to create him to prevent the need to condemn that future sinner? But what then? The sinner wasn’t created so there would be no sin to foresee, therefore there would be no reason for him NOT to be created.
Do you think God can foresee future events that DON’T happen?
For God to foresee the future there has to be a future to foresee. God can only foresee the individual sinner’s actions because they happen at some point in time.
However, unlike the Calvinist lottery god, the God revealed through scripture made provision so that ALL could be free from their sin and therefore free from the punishment that results from sin. ALL have the opportunity that God has graciously provided. But not all receive it. Some people remain in their sin through their own choice and therefore will receive the eternal punishment they deserve.
It would be of GREAT benefit to understand what God wanted out of THIS creation and to ask why He didn't create it WITHOUT the potential for sin.
Ask why He didn't START with the new heavens and new earth where only righteousness dwells - which is the FINAL outcome described in scripture.
Then there would be no need to condemn ANYONE to hell - but then again God would not obtain a WILLING people to adopt into His family.
God desires a WILLING bride for His Son - not a Stepford wife.
Apparently Onesimus doesn't believe God knows counterfactuals of the sort: If I create S, and S is in circumstance C, S will freely rape 10 women.
ReplyDeleteGood one, Onesimus, make sure to gp over to "Dan's" blog and complain against Molinism. Gocomplain about Jacob Arminius too, who was arguably a Molinist as well.
Now, take your spaz typing somewhere else.
One said:
ReplyDelete---
It would be of GREAT benefit to understand what God wanted out of THIS creation and to ask why He didn't create it WITHOUT the potential for sin.
Ask why He didn't START with the new heavens and new earth where only righteousness dwells - which is the FINAL outcome described in scripture.
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Will what is molded say to its molder, "Why have you made me like this?" Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory—even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles?
One said:
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Then there would be no need to condemn ANYONE to hell - but then again God would not obtain a WILLING people to adopt into His family.
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Because God is so obviously in love with letting you run your own show that He'd rather let you have freedom than spare you. Nevermind that you wouldn't allow your own children to abuse their freedom to cause more harm; nevermind that you'd ground your daughter rather then let her sleep around with the football team. Obviously freedom is the highest moral virtue and the fact that you keep your children from exercizing evil actions is proof that you really hate them and just want robots.
And seriously, how dumb does God have to be if He can't figure out a way to save everyone whom He wants to save? Why does He let the unreached go to hell if He wants to save them? How hard would it be for God to just SHOW UP? Why does He let the atheist who says, "If God would just appear right here I'd believe in Him" go on his way without ever appearing? Why can't God come down and perform a miracle? For that matter, I believe aspirin cures headaches because, you know, I've seen it, used it, and it worked. Why isn't God like aspirin? Why is it when people who don't believe they'll get a soda from a soda machine can still put in change and get a soda, but people who don't believe in God can't pray to God and get an answer to prayer? Those who believed the machine would shaft them had their beliefs altered; but those atheists don't. Why?
The answer you're looking for is: "Because He doesn't want to save everyone."
But then you'd have to accept Calvinism.
So to keep with your precious LFW, you can have the alternate reason: "Because people are smarter than God."
Yup. The God who created you, who watches you with your soda machine, can't figure out ways to prove He exists. But I can figure out ways He could prove His existence.
He's got omnipotence and omnipresence. He could just show up.
And since He's omnipotent and omnipresent, even if He's clueless, then He's read my post and is now informed, so He has no excuse, right?
So either God is not only stupid but illiterate, or God doesn't want to save all these people you think He wants to save.
I see you are content to malign God by giving Him characteristics that are more demonic than Divine. But that's possible because God gave you that freedom.
ReplyDeleteIt's sad that you use that God given freedom to confuse your false God with the one true God who desires ALL to be saved but who also allows man to go his own way. The one true God will not force Himself on anyone.
It would be very helpful if you burned all of your sacred theological texts and turned to scripture alone; trusting in the Holy Spirit to teach you.
But no. Some are more in love with human theology than they are with God and will even manipulate scripture to force it to support what their theological heroes have taught.
Reading again through the last couple of entries before my own, and I see they prove that the writers may know their "theology", but they definitely do NOT know God.
ReplyDeleteAgain I suggest you abandon your theological heroes - THEY aren't going to help you find salvation.
Turn to GOD and HIS word alone. Allow HIS Holy Spirit to teach you.
That is your only hope of finding the truth.
But I suspect you love your theology more than you love God, and it is most likely that you will continue maligning God in order to maintain your relationship with your theological heroes.
"And seriously, how dumb does God have to be if He can't figure out a way to save everyone whom He wants to save? Why does He let the unreached go to hell if He wants to save them? "
ReplyDeleteThe statement above PROVES that the writer of that statement does not know God and therefore has no clue about God's wishes.
God desires ALL to be saved. Scripture plainly and clearly states that.
There is no way to avoid the truth of those clear and simple biblical statements - unless of course your theology is more important than the truth of scripture. Then you will add to scripture to change its clear and simple meaning in order to force scripture to support your theology.
God wishes for all to be saved, but He also wants a people who are willing to allow Him to cleanse them of their sin.
Most people prefer their sin just as you prefer your theological heresy.
The gospel of Jesus Christ and the convicting work of the Holy Spirit show man the position he is in. They reveal to man the sin that condemns them. And they give man the option of continuing on their own way, or of repenting and turning to God in faith to allow HIM to cleanse them of their sin.
God wants a WILLING people. he does not want to force anyone into salvation. Both "irresistible grace" and "universalism" have the same affect - forcing people into a salvation that they have not desired for themselves.
God wants all to be saved, but He does not want that at the expense of Justice. Those who through conviction prove their remorse by repentance will have their sins forgiven.
Those who resist conviction and wilfully continue in their sin will remain condemned.
Peter Pike said:
ReplyDeleteSo either God is not only stupid but illiterate, or God doesn't want to save all these people you think He wants to save.
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Scripture says:
“This is good, and it is pleasing in the sight of God our Saviour, who desires ALL people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.”(1Ti 2:3-4)
“The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that ALL should reach repentance.” (2Pe 3:9)
So what is your stance now?
1) Paul and Peter were liars
2) God is not only stupid but illiterate (as per your statement above)
3) Your theology is a lie
One said:
ReplyDelete---
Turn to GOD and HIS word alone. Allow HIS Holy Spirit to teach you.
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That's unintentionally hillarious coming from you. Especially since all the Calvinists in here know I quoted Scripture back to you, unattributed because I didn't want to give it away.
You also rant a lot without quoting any Scripture, and when you finally do get around to Scripture you quote only 1 Timothy and 2 Peter, both of which have been responded to many times already on this blog.
Briefly, 1 Tim says immediately before the quote you rip out of context that we should pray for all men. Do you pray for all men? Obviously not--you don't even know all men. Instead, you have to pray generally, and the "all" is certainly a general qualification in the passage.
2 Peter refers to "you", and the "you" is strictly limited to the believers. And of course God doesn't want any believers to not come to repentence. You can use the search feature to read more on this, as I know Steve and Paul, and I'm 95% certain Gene too, have all written on these very passages before.
You, however, have not dealt with Romans 9, which I quoted to you. How is it that if God wants all men universally to be saved that He has prepared in advanced vessels FOR destruction? The answer is obvious, and given in the passage: So His glory can be made known to the objects of His mercy.
You said:
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The statement above PROVES that the writer of that statement does not know God and therefore has no clue about God's wishes.
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You are right in only one thing. You are right that I do not worship the God you worship, because I worship the God of the Bible. I worship the God who said:
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"I will put my law within them, and I will write it on their hearts. And I will be their God, and they shall be my people. And no longer shall each one teach his neighbor and each his brother, saying, 'Know the LORD,' for they shall all know me, from the least of them to the greatest, declares the LORD. For I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more." (Jeremiah 31:33-34).
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I worship the God who acts. He does not wait for someone to teach another about Him; He acts Himself.
I worship the God who said:
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And I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you. And I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to obey my rules. (Ezekiel 36:26-27).
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God is the one who causes believers to obey Him. He "violates" our so-called Free Will, giving us a new heart and new nature and the Spirit SO THAT we can obey Him, because without that we can do nothing.
This surely isn't the God you worship.
I certainly don't worship the demonic god that you worship.
ReplyDeleteAnd you point out that I haven't quoted much scripture. That's because I've learned the futility of duelling with proof texts.
I gave you two verses that categorically state God's desire for ALL to repent and be saved. But you deny those truths - proving that you're not interested in scripture anyway.
Scripture was not given to us as a collection of individual texts. It was provided as a COMPLETE revelation of God, His character and His purposes.
You have proven that you have no regard for the God revealed in scripture, but you are deeply in love with your man-made theology and will even malign God's Holy name in order to demonstrate your devotion to your false doctrines.
I see you have brought up that favourite Calvinist proof text of Romans 9. I suggest you coinsider that chapter in its context.
And considering your allusion to the potter and the clay from Romans 9 I suggest you consider the meaning of the potter and the clay as revealed in Jeremiah 18 where God spells out the meaning to Jeremiah. And it does NOT mean what you Calvinists have believed it to mean.
It's all about God changing His plans for people when they repent. And even turning from His intention to bless when people become disobedient.
He'll actually change a vessel intended for blessing into a vessel of wrath - depending on the "vessel's" response to Him.
Oh dear - God changing His mind? Obviously God isn't a Calvinist and doesn't realise what He's supposed to be like.
The Potter and the Clay.
ReplyDeleteJeremiah 18
At the Potter's House
1 This is the word that came to Jeremiah from the LORD : 2 "Go down to the potter's house, and there I will give you my message." 3 So I went down to the potter's house, and I saw him working at the wheel. 4 But the pot he was shaping from the clay was marred in his hands; so the potter formed it into ANOTHER POT [different to He one He originally intended - onesimus], shaping it as seemed best to him.
5 Then the word of the LORD came to me: 6 "O house of Israel, can I not do with you as this potter does?" declares the LORD. "Like clay in the hand of the potter, so are you in my hand, O house of Israel. 7 If at any time I announce that a nation or kingdom is to be uprooted, torn down and destroyed, 8 and if that nation I warned repents of its evil, THEN I WILL RELENT AND NOT INFLICT ON IT THE DISASTER I HAD PLANNED. 9 And if at another time I announce that a nation or kingdom is to be built up and planted, 10 and if it does evil in my sight and does not obey me, THEN I WILL RECONSIDER THE GOOD I HAD INTENDED to do for it.
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God changing His intentions due to man's actions!!!???
Obviously He refuses to conform to the Calvinist understanding of HIS sovereignty and He does things HIS way according to HIS purposes and not according to the theologies of dead men.