JON CURRY SAID:
“The facts remain. Sura 9 portrays a God that is far more merciful than Numbers 31 and I Sam 15.”
A good example of Jon’s moral blindness, which is illustrative of many unbelievers.
1.From an ethical standpoint, the relevant question is not whether a punishment is unmerciful, but whether it’s unjust.
Indeed, there are many cases in which mercy and justice are opposed. To be merciful to a rapist is to be unjust to a rape victim.
2.In addition, as I’ve often said, you can’t be equally merciful to everyone. To be merciful to the rapist is to be merciless to his victim.
3.Likewise, as I’ve said on more than one occasion, if you punish a criminal, that may impose a hardship on his family. But does that mean we should never punish a criminal?
An investment banker who defrauds his clients of their life savings may be a devoted husband and father. If you prosecute him for his crimes, his family will suffer.
To prosecute the man is unmerciful to his wife and kids, yet it would be unjust to left him off Scott free. The better to defraud the next batch of unsuspecting clients. In that case, mercy would be immoral.
4.Jon’s comparison is also shortsighted. To be merciful to the Canaanites is to be merciless to their future victims.
The Canaanites victimized the Israelites. They also victimized their own people through their many immoralities.
Allow a mortal enemy to live, and he will live to fight you another day. He and his descendents.
Jon-The facts remain. Sura 9 portrays a God that is far more merciful than Numbers 31 and I Sam 15.
ReplyDeleteSteve-A good example of Jon’s moral blindness, which is illustrative of many unbelievers.
Let's see how morally blind I am and actually compare the two texts.
Sura 9
[9.1] (This is a declaration of) immunity by Allah and His Apostle towards those of the idolaters with whom you made an agreement.
[9.2] So go about in the land for four months and know that you cannot weaken Allah and that Allah will bring disgrace to the unbelievers.
[9.3] And an announcement from Allah and His Apostle to the people on the day of the greater pilgrimage that Allah and His Apostle are free from liability to the idolaters; therefore if you repent, it will be better for you, and if you turn back, then know that you will not weaken Allah; and announce painful punishment to those who disbelieve.
[9.4] Except those of the idolaters with whom you made an agreement, then they have not failed you in anything and have not backed up any one against you, so fulfill their agreement to the end of their term; surely Allah loves those who are careful (of their duty).
[9.5] So when the sacred months have passed away, then slay the idolaters wherever you find them, and take them captives and besiege them and lie in wait for them in every ambush, then if they repent and keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate, leave their way free to them; surely Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.
[9.6] And if one of the idolaters seek protection from you, grant him protection till he hears the word of Allah, then make him attain his place of safety; this is because they are a people who do not know.
[9.7] How can there be an agreement for the idolaters with Allah and with His Apostle; except those with whom you made an agreement at the Sacred Mosque? So as long as they are true to you, be true to them; surely Allah loves those who are careful (of their duty).
I Sam 15
1 Samuel said to Saul, "I am the one the LORD sent to anoint you king over his people Israel; so listen now to the message from the LORD. 2 This is what the LORD Almighty says: 'I will punish the Amalekites for what they did to Israel when they waylaid them as they came up from Egypt. 3 Now go, attack the Amalekites and totally destroy [a] everything that belongs to them. Do not spare them; put to death men and women, children and infants, cattle and sheep, camels and donkeys.' "
So let's note a couple of things. In the Bible children are killed, but not because they did something wrong. And not because they will come back and attack the Israelites in the future, as you say. They are killed for the simple reason that they had some ancestors that were guilty of crimes.
Now let's look at Sura 9. War is waged because people had broken a treaty with the Muslims. But even then months are given for them to make ammends. Even then those that kept their word with regards to the treaty are to be spared. Even those that have broken the treaty are spared if they repent of their ways. We're talking about the very people guilty of the crime, not long removed ancestors of people that have committed a crime.
You are the one that is morally blind. The Bible has blinded you to the real meaning of justice and the real meaning of mercy. In the real world justice means paying for crimes that you are guilty of. In your world justice is punishing someone else for your crimes. In the real world the Koranic example is a better example of ethical behavior than I Sam 15 or Numbers 31. But you are locked in your circular logic world where everything "coheres" as long as you believe that up is down and black is white.
Jon Curry wrote:
ReplyDelete"They are killed for the simple reason that they had some ancestors that were guilty of crimes."
Readers should know that Steve Hays, Gene Bridges, and I (and other people) have discussed 1 Samuel 15 with Jon in the past, and he left the discussions without interacting with much of what we had said. We explained to him, repeatedly, that the "simple reason" he mentions above wasn't the only factor involved. Gene Bridges gave examples of other factors involved from the surrounding context, and so did I. See, for example:
http://triablogue.blogspot.com/2006/07/gagging-on-agag.html
http://triablogue.blogspot.com/2006/07/pitchfork-revolution.html
Readers should know that Steve Hays, Gene Bridges, and I (and other people) have discussed 1 Samuel 15 with Jon in the past, and he left the discussions without interacting with much of what we had said. We explained to him, repeatedly, that the "simple reason" he mentions above wasn't the only factor involved.
ReplyDeleteYour eisogetical invented reasons for the killing in I Sam (and constant ignoring of the actual reason given in the text) changes nothing about my point here. Sura 9 presents an example that is more ethical, more merciful, and more just. Steve thinks my preference for punishing those that are actually guilty of the crime makes me morally blind. My preference for an allowance of mercy in this case makes me morally blind. My revulsion to the thought of killing the young boys in Num 31 and sparing the virgin girls to provide sexual satisfaction for the attackers makes me morally blind. I'm sure he thinks I'm scientifically blind to think the earth is over 6000 years old and that complex life evolved from lower life forms. I also think the earth revolves around the sun and it isn't flat. I must be blind.
Jon Curry said:
ReplyDelete"Your eisogetical invented reasons for the killing in I Sam (and constant ignoring of the actual reason given in the text) changes nothing about my point here."
All assertion and no argument. No attempt to rebut what we actually said—because he can't.
Just another lazy atheist who issues a challenge and then throws stones when you take him up on the challenge.
"Sura 9 presents an example that is more ethical, more merciful, and more just."
Notice that Jon is now backpedaling from his original claim. His original claim is that Sura 9 was more merciful, not that it was more just.
So where is his argument that Sura 9 is more just?
Likewise, the claim that Sura 9 is more ethical is merely another stipulative assertion for which he offers no supporting argument.
All Jon does is to air his groundless opinions.
So where is his argument that Sura 9 is more just?
ReplyDeleteIt is more just to punish those that are guilty of the crime. It is less just to punish ancestors of the long dead criminals. I already said all of this. Steve, I really think there is something wrong with you.
Jon Curry said:
ReplyDelete"It is more just to punish those that are guilty of the crime. It is less just to punish ancestors of the long dead criminals. I already said all of this. Steve, I really think there is something wrong with you."
What passes for his argument is predicated on his simplistic, acontextual exegesis of Scripture. Jon is merely using one error to prop up another error.