From what I've read, members of the MacArthur circle distinguish between mediate and immediate miracles. Mediate miracles involve human agency whereas God bypasses human agency in the case of immediate miracles. Cessationists of the MacArthur circle make allowance for immediate modern miracles, but disallow mediate modern miracles. They bristle at the accusation that they don't think God performs miracles in the modern world.
One issue which this distinction raises is how they distinguish evidence for immediate modern miracles from evidence for mediate modern miracles. In both cases, it would be the same kind of evidence: testimonial evidence. Here's how they treat reported mediate modern miracles:
Robert Warren @jnthree35 Aug
"My nephew's cousin witnessed it"
#CharismaticismInFiveWords
Retweeted by Dan Phillips
[Fred Butler]
I too have read many accounts of modern miracles. I find them to be mostly hearsay and apocryphal.
http://hipandthigh.wordpress.com/2013/07/28/why-wont-faith-healers-heal-amputees/Ex N1hil07/25/2013 12:40 PM
Everybody in the charismatic movement (only a slight exaggeration) knows someone who knows of somebody whose second cousin knows this other person who heard eyewitness testimony from someone who was present when a miraculous resurrection occurred at an evangelical meeting in a small African village.
http://triablogue.blogspot.com/2013/07/christian-debunkers.html?showComment=1374770421624#c4911539386375530359
But if they're that dismissive of reported mediate modern miracles, then do they believe in reported immediate modern miracles? Or is that just a throwaway line?
If they discount reports of mediate modern miracles because that's "hearsay," "my nephew's cousin witnessed it," what's their basis for believing in immediate modern miracles? Or is that just a paper theory?
One possible difference is that many Christians have heard a first-hand account, or have experienced for themselves, miraculous answers to prayer. A more distant account of a miraculous answer to prayer is given the benefit of the doubt then. On the other hand, not many have heard first hand accounts of miraculous resuscitation. They only know of rather hardline charismatic/pentecostal people who know someone who heard from an African missionary that in the next village over someone was resurrected. There is both a bias to try to prove that such happenings take place through faith healers, and an overabundance of such stories to be readily believable. Perhaps if claimants for such miracles were less cavalier about floating such stories, then possible legitimate occurrences might be taken more seriously.
ReplyDeleteCome on, Steve. You are not a naive man. You know there are a lot of outrageous claims of miracles that are made every day: Legs lengthened. Gold dust falling from the rafters. Silver fillings turned to gold. People who can now see out of a glass eye, or with no eye at all. And of course, numerous resurrections.
ReplyDeleteThat's the kind of thing people are reacting against. Addiction to the spectacular. The need for a bigger fish story than the other guy. Seeking after signs. This indicates an unbelieving generation.
I forget who it was, perhaps Justin Peters, who I heard talk about interviewing a number of "faith healers." He asked them each a question that, apparently, no one had thought to ask before: "What is the longest period that someone lived after you raised them from the dead?" The longest period of time anyone admitted to was 10 minutes.
Now, God does answer prayer. All the time. Some of the answers are pretty spectacular and unexpected. I don't know of any Christian who denies this. But what I am saying is that it is the *seeking after signs* that is contrary to Christ's teaching. It produces Christian showmen whose magic tricks and spectacular claims draw crowds of desperate people, putting their hope in a con man rather than in the Christ. These showmen are the butt of the jokes and derision of unbelievers. Because of them the name of the God of Israel is blasphemed.
I know of people whose recovery from illness has their doctors stumped. Praise God. Who is denying this sort of thing happens? I want names! No one is. This sort of thing is wonderful. It's not the problem. The problem is when Christians treat the Holy Spirit as their own private Genie in the bottle.
God heals if He wills, whom He wills, when He wills, and by what means he wills. He is at no man's beck and call.
Ex N1hilo
Delete"Come on, Steve. You are not a naive man. You know there are a lot of outrageous claims of miracles that are made every day: Legs lengthened. Gold dust falling from the rafters. Silver fillings turned to gold. People who can now see out of a glass eye, or with no eye at all. And of course, numerous resurrections. That's the kind of thing people are reacting against."
They're using the example of charlatans to prove a universal negative. That's manifestly fallacious.
Frankly, what makes you think you're any better than the charlatans you deride? Seems to me that you're just as dishonest in a different way. You don't make a good faith effort to acquaint yourself with the best exponents of the opposing position.
Who says these guys are charlatans? Where are the real ones if these are charlatans? Wouldn't people give their money and attention to The Real McCoy if it existed instead of these charlatans?
DeleteWouldn't people give their money and attention to The Real McCoy if it existed instead of these charlatans?
DeleteThat's a surprisingly high view of human nature!
In any case, Acts 16 and 19 give good evidence for how people sometimes prefer their charlatans to the real deal. I suspect this is because of the tendency for legitimate Christians make serious claims on people's lives (such as requiring that they repent), while charlatans don't.
That's a surprisingly high view of human nature!
DeleteLOL touché.
I honestly think it's a low view, though. :-)
Matthew 12:39 - He answered, "A wicked and adulterous generation asks for a sign!"
Anyway, I see your point about demands and it's a good one. I don't know if it's going to be the deciding factor in this discussion, however, b/c we're talking about how it might be that we might not even KNOW about such a gifted person in this day and age.
Steve,
DeleteI speak for myself. I'm not sure I grasp the distinction some are making between mediate and immediate miracles. If the doctors are saying, "Our only option at this point is to pull the plug;" and yet, God grants the patient a recovery in answer to the prayers of those who love her, is that an immediate miracle? Dunno. It's not like a faith healer showed up with some anointed prayer cloths and draped them over the patient. But the fervent prayer of a righteous man avails much. So, I'm not sure the mediate/immediate distinction is a useful one. I'm not trying to prove a universal negative. I'm saying that, as believers in the One who is Truth, we ought to have our eyes open to the large-scale deception that is going on in the churches. Wise as serpents. Because the serpents are here. They are in many pulpits.
Rhology,
The Bible says they are charlatans.
I charge you in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who is to judge the living and the dead, and by his appearing and his kingdom: preach the word; be ready in season and out of season; reprove, rebuke, and exhort, with complete patience and teaching. For the time is coming when people will not endure sound teaching, but having itching ears they will accumulate for themselves teachers to suit their own passions, and will turn away from listening to the truth and wander off into myths.
(2 Timothy 4:1-4 ESV)
We know they are false teachers because they preach a false gospel.
Most people, even most church-goers, are eager to give their money to those who preach the health and wealth gospel. They give lots of it. And yet, they wouldn't think of supporting those who preach the true gospel. Here's why:
Why do you not understand what I say? It is because you cannot bear to hear my word. You are of your father the devil, and your will is to do your father's desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks out of his own character, for he is a liar and the father of lies. But because I tell the truth, you do not believe me. (John 8:43-45 ESV)
They don't want to hear the truth. Anything but that. Really, anything at all. For example, they will eat up the doctrine of Fred Price who teaches that we need not die until we assent it. For those who are operating according to the principle that our words create our reality, sickness, poverty and death have no power over them. Death cannot overtake you until you give it permission. Therefore, Mr. Price has decreed and declared that he will die at a very old age—perhaps 250—when he voluntarily “gives up his spirit,” after having lived a full and satisfying life of perfect health and vitality. People who want to be in control of their own destinies eat this stuff up.
But the truth is that a day has been appointed on which they will die. After that, the Judgment. Anointed prayer cloths are not going to prevent this. They will find that decreeing and declaring their own reality was a foolish and empty hope.
Now the people who preach this tripe and those who gobble it up are free to do so. But no one has the right to call it “Christianity.” It is not.
That's fine, Alan. I think blogs are much more about disseminating information than discussing it, to say nothing of changing minds. That tends to happen in personal conversation (with all-important body language and verbal cues) or through book-length treatments, and that certainly seems the better venue for such given the seriousness of issues like these. (I can count on one hand the number of times I had a discussion in a blog that changed my mind on a serious issue!)
Delete(I can count on one hand the number of times I had a discussion in a blog that changed my mind on a serious issue!)
Deletehttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zMRrNY0pxfM
Alan, what books have you read on the subject of modern miracles, exorcism (or the paranormal)?
ReplyDeleteNone.
DeleteAlan, I appreciate the candid answer. But doesn't that result in circular, self-reinforcing skepticism?
DeleteIt can. I pray it is not doing so in my case.
DeleteA long time ago i did a study on Acts regarding these different classes, seen here .
ReplyDelete