A friend asked me what I thought of Victor Reppert’s
argument from reason. Here’s my response:
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I just finished reading his version of the argument in the
Blackwell Companion to Natural Theology. Here are my off-the-cuff impressions:
i) I think it’s a good argument. I think it can be
popularized.
ii) In popularizing theistic proofs, I think we need to
clarify the value and limitations of popularized theistic proofs. I think we
should classify popularized theistic proofs under defensive apologetics rather
than offensive apologetics. I think they can be useful in giving Christians
supporting arguments for their faith. They can give Christians some
intellectual confidence or assurance.
However, I think it would often be a mistake for a Christian
to imagine that this equips him to go on the offensive and pick fights or do
battle with unbelievers.
In debate, a specialist usually has an advantage over a
nonspecialist. He can argue circles around the nonspecialist. Even though the
specialist may be dead wrong, he can do a snow job on the nonspecialist.
An atheist who’s a clever young philosophy major has a lot of
strategies at his disposal to deflect a popularized version of the AFR. If Joe
Six-pack Christian gets into an argument with an unbeliever like that, he may
well lose the argument, not because he’s wrong, but because he lacks the
sophistication to field the counterarguments.
And that experience could disillusion him. That might shake
his faith. Leave him worse off than before. So we need to make sure the
nonspecialist has reasonable expectations about what a popularized theistic
proof can accomplish.
iii) There’s also the question of how to interpret the AFR.
a) Is it one argument, or a bundle of distinct arguments?
Reppert divides the argument into six subarguments, but are
these six distinct arguments from reason, or are these six supporting arguments
for the same basic argument?
b) For instance, is dualism essential to the AFR? Take an
idealistic version of atheism like McTaggart’s idealism. Everything would be
mental.
Yet that would still be vulnerable to the AFR. Mentality is
not interchangeable with rationality. Take the clinically insane.
c) Likewise, some people I’ve read think this is about the
determinism/indeterminism debate. That if our beliefs are determined, then our
beliefs are arbitrary. But I think that objection misses the point of argument.
Seems to me the AFR isn’t targeting the general principle of
determinate beliefs, but beliefs determined by a mindless process.
By the same token, the AFT would also target accidental
beliefs. Beliefs which result from a stochastic process.
iv) In popularizing a theistic proof, the key is to find and
exploit good illustrations. For instance, Reppert uses the hypothetical example
of someone who throws dice to decide what to believe. You could expand on that
example.
a) We’d say that’s an irrational way to choose beliefs,
because there’s no essential correlation between the selection process and the
truth of the corresponding belief. And that’s because it’s just a matter of
chance what combination the dice will yield on any particular throw.
Mind you, there’s a sense in which the randomness is
determined by physical conditions and mathematical constraints, which is why we
can calculate the odds. Only so many combinations are mathematically possible.
But there’s no internal relation between the dice and the
beliefs. The same throw could select a different belief, or a different throw
could select the same belief. It all depends on how the dice are positioned in
the fist, the angle of the throw, the amount of force behind the throw, &c.
b) One might compare this to loaded dice. The dice are
loaded with the intention of yielding a particular result, for a purpose. To
win by cheating.
v) Scrabble would be another example.
a) In one respect, that’s a physical state which can
represent something else. The arrangement of letters can refer.
But lettered sequences aren’t inherently meaningful. Rather,
that’s based on language, alphabets, and spelling systems. That’s a code which
we use to assign meaning to inanimate objects. An arbitrary convention. The
significance is contingent on an agreed-upon set of rules. Mutual
understanding.
b) Likewise, we distinguish between words which are
fortuitously formed by shaking the box, then emptying the contents onto the
table, and words which are intentionally formed by a player selecting Scrabble
pieces from a pile and arranging or rearranging them to spell a word or
sentence.
If a girlfriend and boyfriend were playing Scrabble, and she
saw her boyfriend shake the box, resulting in the pieces randomly spelling
“Will you marry me?”, she wouldn’t treat that as a marriage proposal (unless
she was deluded). But if she saw him take pieces on the table and arrange them
to spell “Will you marry me?”, she’d rightly interpreted that as a marriage
proposal.
These are ways of illustrating the difference between
beliefs produced by a reliable process and beliefs produced by an unreliable
process.
vi) Finally, one stock objection to the AFR is that the
evolution of reason is trustworthy, for if it wasn’t trustworthy, we wouldn’t
still be around.
I haven’t kept up with all the current literature on that
debate, but I think that appeal is flawed on multiple grounds:
a) It’s an a posteriori counterargument to an a priori
argument. The AFT is an argument in principle. An empirical argument really
can’t disprove an argument in principle. It isn’t that kind of argument.
b) Reasoning back from the outcome doesn’t yield that
premise. Even if we grant macroevolution, even if we grant that our survival
retroactively validates the fact that evolution selects for reliable beliefs,
that’s not an argument for naturalistic evolution. At best, that would be an
argument for theistic evolution. For guided evolution.
If, for instance, we keep rolling sixes, we don’t conclude
that we’re lucky. For there quickly comes a point where that’s too lucky to be
sheer luck. Rather, we conclude that the dice are loaded.
c) If brainpower confers a survival advantage, how did our
less cerebrally endowed precursors survive to evolve bigger brains?
d) Insects survive and thrive without brainpower or true
beliefs. So where’s the connection?
e) According to evolutionary history, the vast percentage of
biological organisms became extinct.
f) The
appeal is circular. You can only cite the success of evolution in producing
advantageous beliefs on the prior assumption that your brain can be trusted to
evaluate the evidence. But that’s the very issue in dispute.
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i) One problem with just preaching the Bible is that most unbelievers are unchurched. They aren't where they hear expository preaching on a regular basis, if at all. So that's an antidote without an audience.
ReplyDeleteii) Another problem is that if unbelievers have been taught to view the Bible as just a bunch of politically incorrect bronze age fairy-tales, then evangelism has no foothold.
iii) If unbelievers seem to have all the arguments, and we can't respond in kind, that creates a very bad impression of the faith.
iv) There's an oft-repeated apostasy narrative where intellectually defenseless Christian youth lose their faith in college.
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i) The NT culture was entirely unchurched.
DeleteIn what sense? Knowledge of the OT was rather strong in Paul's target areas. What do you mean by this statement?
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Ed Dingess
Delete“The NT culture was entirely unchurched.”
That’s a gross overstatement. Both Jews and Gentile Godfearers or proselytes were exposed to Scripture when they attended synagogue. That’s not comparable to biblical illiteracy in our own time.
“Paul said very well that the gospel was foolishness and offensive to this world. Yet, God powerfully saves men despite their natural-born enmity toward God and the gospel.”
Paul didn’t simply preach the gospel. When evangelizing Jews, he quoted Scripture, but when he was engaging pagans, he quoted pagan writers as well as appealing to divine creation and providence (Acts 14 & 17).
“They never had genuine faith to begin with and college exposes the leaven that they have always been (assuming they persist in throwing off the faith).”
You need to distinguish between backsliders and apostates.
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Ed Dingess.
ReplyDeleteThe question that doesn't get asked often enough in my opinion is whether or not we should even expend this amount time on arguments from natural theology. I am not saying we should not devote any attention to the subject, but I wonder if this area deserves the kind of attention it garners.
I notice you have a blog called, "Reformed Reasons." You might, then, want to consider the Reformed views on the matter. A place to start would be Michael Sudduth's The Reformed Objection to Natural Theology (Ashgate, 2009).
Also, one wonders what amount of "time" you have in mind? How much time *are* we spending on the topic, and how much is too much? Not that you have to give a precise answer, it could be vague. A ballpark guesstimate will do.
1. God saves through the foolishness of preaching, not the intellectual or rational power of theistic proofs.
Who said God saves "through the rational power of theistic proofs"? (While I'm not even sure what such a denial *means*.) You're attacking an anti-intellectual boogeyman. A scarecrow of your own making. At any event, you'd do well to grant an audience to such Reformed stalwarts as J. Gresham Machen:
***
It is true that the decisive thing is the regenerative power of God. That can overcome all lack of preparation, and the absence of that makes even the best preparation useless. But as a matter of fact God usually exerts that power in connection with certain prior conditions of the human mind, and it should be ours to create, so far as we can, with the help of God, those favorable conditions for the reception of the gospel. False ideas are the greatest obstacles to the reception of the gospel. We may preach with all the fervor of a reformer and yet succeed only in winning a straggler here and there, if we permit the whole collective thought of the nation or of the world to be controlled by ideas which, by the resistless force of logic, prevent Christianity from being regarded as anything more than a harmless delusion.
***
2. They already know God is, but they twist and pervert that knowledge and will do so as long as they are in an unregenerate state.
Again, you'd do wel to read the Sudduth book mentioned above. But moreover, your scan is overly restrictive. You seem to think the only purpose of natural theology arguments are to convince or convert or answer *non*believers. Lastly, it's highly contentious, given the current state of the art of epistemology, that *all* men "know" that God exists—granted, even if we suppose Paul is talking about all human beings whoever (concepti?), he may be using 'knowledge' in a way that diverges from how we use it in the field of epistemology, but in that case, the arguments against natural theology based on Romans 1 become very dubious and ostensibly otiose.
3. I suggest acquaintence with attacks is okay, but mastering how to deliver a succinct presentation of the gospel would serve our purposes far greater than intellectual pugilism. Paul warned Timothy about this activity more than once.
I'm not even sure what this *means*, but I have a feeling Reformed bloggers, like yourself, with all their wrangling and taking the time to argue against natural theology are exempt.
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Ed Dingess,
DeleteFirst, how are you licensing your move from *descriptive* reports of what you take to be how the apostles spent their time to your *normative* conclusion? Second, do you find no disparity between times? The Greeks believed in the divine and the supernatural and the miraculous, so there was lot of common ground. Other audiences were Jews, who shared in common the OT. You don't seem to appreciate the flawed reasoning you're using and the inappropriate mapping of the apostles’ intellectual and apologetic context onto our own.
You then say my "point concerning Paul’s epistemology and what he meant by γνωστός in Romans 1 is disturbing." Why you find the need engage in such hand-wringing and introduce such emotionally loaded terms, is inscrutable. What's the cause for your concern? You say, "You attempt to establish a radically skeptical view of how we should read Romans 1 and from there you move to quite dogmatic conclusion." Well, why is this? Because I said *concepti* don't "know" God if Paul meant that as something like justified or warranted true belief? Ed, I'm afraid that's not very "skeptical." And what, exactly, was my "dogmatic" *conclusion*, Ed? You don't tell us? Was it that if "know" is not used by Paul to mean something like justified/warranted true belief, then your appeal to Romans 1 is ostensibly otiose? How is *that* dogmatic, Ed? Indeed, I even used the term 'ostensibly'! Or perhaps you're referring to my claim that your claim about Romans 1 is "highly contentious." Well, it is, Ed. I have several respected commentaries that will substantiate this, and which I can cite if you'd like?
You then ask me "If Paul is not talking about all human beings, then the universal language about wrath must also be localized", and claim this is an "implication" I haven't thought through. However, this is not so. For example, there are *other* passages that could justify God's universal wrath. You also need to deal with the cases of putatively obvious candidates for exception, such as concepti, or those born severely mentally disabled, etc. But more apropos, God's existence is clear and *all* and those men who do not know that he exists *ought* to "19 since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse." This here grounds the wrath, and has you can see this says *nothing* about *actual* knowledge. There is a category called *culpable* ignorance, Ed. Now, you may not *like* what I have to say about all of this, but I have shown that the supposed unsavory implication of my position is unfounded.
Lastly, I have read Bahnsen, Van Til, and Oliphint. Actually, I have reviews up of all their book on my goodreads.com site. I know my Van Til and Bahnsen. However, I have grown to appreciate and see several errors with their views. Some of them minor, some major. But let's put all this aside and point out the irony here: Van Til and Bahnsen did not think that you should just "preach and trust God to do the work." Actually, Bahnsen denies this is the appropriate representation of his position in his book Always Ready. Moreover, when you write, "I suggest acquaintence with attacks is okay, but mastering how to deliver a succinct presentation of the gospel would serve our purposes far greater than intellectual pugilism," you show your unfamiliarity with the men you called to your defense. For Van Til and Bahnsen thought they had an invincible *positive* argument, TAG, and spent the majority of their time *not* "mastering how to give a succinct presentation of the gospel." So I wonder if *you* have read your Van Til and Bahnsen.
Oh, and just what do you mean by, "worldly reasoning"? What is that, exactly? Logic? Or something more nefarious? If so, why do you take it that it's relevant to a discussion of natural theology? Does natural theology, as such, reply on said nefarious understanding? Or are you only attacking a specific *model* of natural theology, but not the *project* per se? If the former, why was it assumed that anyone here defended whatever problematic *model* you had in mind and not some other model? What about, say, the dogmatic model favored by many of the Reformed scholastics?
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Ed, yes, as I pre-coged, your claim was a bit of pious rhetoric that doesn't affect the AFR or Steve's post, or my comments. For 'reason' in the context of the AFR is *not* what you describe above, viz., "worldly reason." Rather, it's concerned with mental causation, the ontological status of beliefs, logical inferences, etc. It has nothing to do with how one "understands" reality, but, rather, a common *process* common to all men, and operative before the fall and likewise will be after the fall. It would be helpful if you didn't invoke such rabbit-trails and palpably irrelevant terms such as 'worldly reason' that only serve the point of gaining pious points but which have little to nothing to do with the actual dialectic.
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Ed,
ReplyDeleteThey thought him mad because of how they understood 'resurrection,' the thought Paul was putting forth a strange, new, female deity. Remember, you told me to read Bahnsen, well, here's what he says: Instead, they viewed Paul as bringing strange, new teaching to them (vv. 18-20). "They apparently viewed Paul as proclaiming a new divine couple: 'Jesus' (a masculine form that sounds like the greek iasis) and 'Resurrection' (a feminine form), being the personified powers of 'healing' and 'restoration.' These 'strange deities' amounted to 'new teaching' in the eyes of the Athenians." In any event, you're still reasoning fallaciously. That they accepted the supernatural and the miraculous *in general* does not mean that they would accept the *particular* claim; however, my point was about a deeper disparity: the Western world, largely, rejects those categories *as such*, and we are thus in a *different* apologetic *context* and we should suppose that everything the apostles did in their times is *normative* for our times.
On Paul, you're tilting at windmills. You'll note that I said that *in the context* of modern epistemology, the claim "all men know God" is probably *false*, but if Paul meant the term in some special sense, then all men, even concepti, may know that God exists, but then it's not clear how this is at all relevant to the discussion of natural theology considering that that discussion takes place in *contemporary* contexts and contemporary views of knowledge. So, you have simply read me uncharitably. *I* never said Paul was a modern epistemologist. In fact, *I* tried to say he *wasn't* in order to show the near-irrelevance of your invokation of him to speak to the modern epistemological issues at question in the current dialectic. You then end your pious argument by the predictable "warning" that I'm headed to "serious theological error." I LOLed at that. It's a clear sign that one's *arguments* aren't cutting it when one has to make such (ridiculous and unfounded) accusations.
On Rom. 1: that you had to ask simply shows you're unfamiliar with the literature. To claim your view as the "traditional conservative view" is flat-out *false*, the problem is the the Greek is open to different interpretations, e.g., whether the 'knowledge' is "in" or "among" them. The latter has been held by many reputable commentators, one example is Cranfield, whose Romans commentary is highly regarded. The second problem is that Paul does not address such issues as to whether the knowledge that is supposedly had is had *diachronically*. This isn't even *addressed*, and so the passage does not say that some men couldn't at a time *lose* what they once had. The text is simply *underdetermined*, Ed, your rather (over) confident proclamations aside.
As far as your remarks about Bahnsen, *yawn*, no one here has ever argued that we can "reason someone into the faith." The position taken up here, which I can say Bahnsen would agree with, is that quoted above by the great Presbyterian J. Gresham Machen. No, what *I* said was that Bahnsen have *positive* arguments for the faith when you said we only need to concern ourselves with *criticisms* of the faith, so I put you at odds with Bahnsen on this.
On the offer for a "more serious discussion," thanks but no thanks. I've discerned that you're unprepared in both knowledge of the relevant philosophical issues and biblical issues, and have a bark that is by far louder than your bite. I have no desire to have bad arguments thrown my way only to be told about my serious errors and the path to hell I'm carving out for myself in order to give weight to said bad arguments.
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Ed, your argument from silence isn't impressive. I never said *the text* told us that some of the Greeks possibly understood the "resurrection" to be a female deity. Of course, we have to account for why they said Paul was setting forth new *gods* (plural, Ed). Some commentators have noted the similarity between the Greek word for 'resurrection' and the name of a goddess, moreover, in Greek myth, female deities were often associated with raising of the dead. Anyway, you're still not dealing with what I called the deeper point, so this wrangling is uninteresting to me.
ReplyDeleteOn your "modern epistemology" dig, I also will let this one go, as that is not my reference point and you have only misunderstood me twice. Either you're unable or unwilling to understand my point. I have no desire to repeat myself.
On the Romans 1 issue. Supposing Barrett, Cranfield, et al. are wrong, so what? While I never said the phrase did in fact mean "among them," but simply told you why the disagreements exist and that it's false to say there's a single, standard interpretation of the text, your reading doesn't undermine my argument. For even if your reading is correct, it does nothing to address the diachronic point I raised, neither does it address the issue of concepti and the severely mentally disabled.
You did not use the word "hell," you're right. You said the logical outworking of my views lead me down a dangerous theological bridge and on to "serious error" or "worse." One wonders what the world you think is *worse* than *serious* "theological error." So knock off the white hat routine. I'm not buying. You're a typical Reformed anti-intellectual. You make grand claims, puff your chest out, and when you're responded to in a sensible way and discover you don't have the *arguments* to back up your claims, you start making accusations about the other's potentially *worse* than serious theologically erroneous path, and making many other false-but-pious-sounding charges, such as we think we can merely "argue people into heaven" and that we support and endorse "wordly reasoning." Of course, these claims were shown to be baseless, but you just ignore your overreaching attempts to win an argument and then call the other guy a big meany. I have no desire to sit here and be lectured by a self-appointed internet discourse police who can't bring anything theologically or philosophically interesting to the table but who becomes a holier-than-thou hall monitor to take attention of his deflated reasoning. You will note that from the start it was judged *impossible* for you to be wrong, and you judged me with potential worse-than-serious theological error, endorsing worldly reasoning, and thinking we can argue people into the kingdom. You tried to get some "reductios" of my views, which were subsequently shown to be baseless, and you just ignore these refutations and continue on making mere assertions—and then you have the gaul to tell me I'm not "humble." Take a good, long look in the mirror, Ed, and worry about yourself, not me. You're not my mom or my pastor.
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Who are you to tell me to "Knock off the white hat routine?"
ReplyDeleteHe's a person who, like me, runs into mock pious people like you all the time. You're oozing with criticism and condescension for your opposition, yet lack the means to demonstrate the flaws they allegedly have and which warrant your disdain. I deal with people like you on my own site all the time, but they're in the Anabaptist/Mennonite/Charityite/Amish/generic-fundie camp where you'd normally expect such preening of feathers. I'd actually hold you in even greater contempt than Paul Manata because you describe yourself as Reformed while your anti-intellectualism demonstrated on this blog doesn't reflect that. You may write better and have a wider vocabulary, but your mentality is the same as any backwoods hick who bellows, "I don't need no fancy learnin' or caulidge edumucashun! I just need JeEEZuz!"
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I do know how, and I responded appropriately. The fact that you don't like it is irrelevant. Mock pious persons will always protest that they weren't treated right when corrected. That's definitional to mock piety.
DeleteEd,
ReplyDeleteThe view that Romans 1 is not universal has the potential to lead to the denial that Romans 2 and 3 is universal language as well.
Yawn, even if it does have this potential, that doesn't imply that it has this potential when conjoined with *other* beliefs, such as the ones I pointed out. This is like me saying that your belief in God's sovereignty "has the potential" to lead to hyper Calvinism. So should I mention that every time you speak about God's sovereignty? Well, I could if I wanted to be a bore like you, but I charitably assume you have *other* beliefs that don't lead to hyper-calvinism, and I act charitably until given reason not to.
Concerning your comments around modern epistemology, and your hint that Paul may have been thinking of warrant or justified true belief in Romans
Yawn, that wasn't my "hint" or my assertion or my claim. You simply have failed, repeatedly, to so much as grasp the point I made, even when I clarified it for you.
Who are you to tell me to "Knock off the white hat routine?"
A member of the moral community, and as such a member, I have such a right. You make baseless accusations about me, put forth ridiculous charges, and when I push back you turn into Debbie DoGood.
Other than that, it appears that you've given up the debate on the substantive issues. This is typical of your type. You lack the chops to argue the points and so you try desperately to move the discussion to unfallisiable accusations and the ethics of discourse, where you try to play the victim defending the pure cause of righteousness. Political liberals and internet Arminian theologians do the same.
Ed, btw, I notice you spend a lot of time here arguing about all sorts of things and not spending your time developing succinct gospel presentations etc. In fact, you seem to spend more time telling others how to behave and criticizing natural theology and lawgic and book larnin than Steve or others do discussing natural theology arguments. The irony is rich!
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Hi Ed Dingess,
DeleteI say all this respectfully:
1. I don't read Paul as rude at all. Rather I read him as intellectually rigorous. Perhaps his intellectual rigor comes off as rude to you even though it's not.
2. In fact, I don't see how what Paul is striving to convey to you isn't consonant with Biblical ethics.
3. Proof-texting isn't the same as understanding "the whole counsel of God," which, as I'm sure you know, is what we're called to do.
4. At the risk of stating the obvious, interacting with others in a combox on a public apologetics blog like Triablogue isn't entirely the same as interacting with people in real life. Such as at church. Or at work. Or at home. Or elsewhere. You're not talking to a person face to face or even over the phone. As such it'd be helpful for everyone involved if you adjusted your expectations accordingly.
5. As for the insulting bit, well, to be frank, sometimes it's actually good to be insulting. Biblically speaking, the apostles could be insulting toward others. Likewise our Lord himself insulted many of the Pharisees, among others. The Bible calls people fools, stupid, ignorant, etc. All these could be said "to cast insults about my knowledge and accuse me of being anti-intellectual..." But it's not immoral to do so, and there could even be a moral obligation to do so.
Logically speaking, Peter Geach (as well as others like Doug Walton) has said the following:
Ad hominem arguments. This Latin term indicates that these are arguments addressed to a particular man - in fact, the other fellow you are disputing with. You start from something he believes as a premise, and infer a conclusion he won't admit to be true. If you have not been cheating in your reasoning, you will have shown that your opponent’s present body of beliefs is inconsistent and it's up to him to modify it somewhere. This argumentative trick is so unwelcome to the victim that he is likely to regard it as cheating: bad old logic books even speak of the ad hominem fallacy. But an ad hominem argument may be perfectly fair play.
Let us consider a kind of dispute that might easily arise:
A. Foxhunting ought to be abolished; it is cruel to the victim and degrading to the participants.
B. But you eat meat; and I'll bet you've never worried about whether the killing of the animals you eat is cruel to them and degrading to the butchers.
No umpire is entitled at this point to call out "Ad hominem! Foul!" It is true that B's remark does nothing to settle the substantive question of whether foxhunting should be abolished; but then B was not pretending to do this; B was challengingly asking how A could consistently condemn foxhunting without also condemning something A clearly does not wish to condemn. Perhaps A could meet the challenge, perhaps not; anyhow the challenge is a fair one - as we saw, you cannot just brush aside a challenge to your consistency, or say inconsistency doesn't matter.
Ad hominem arguments are not just a way of winning a dispute: a logically sound ad hominem argues does a service, even if an unwelcome one, to its victim - it shows him that his present position is untenable and must be modified. Of course people often do not like to be disturbed in their comfortable inconsistencies; that is why ad hominem arguments have a bad name.
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When someone turns to rudeness and begins to cast insults rather than just deal with the subject, I have every right as a fellow Christian to call them on it.
ReplyDeleteSince you obviously haven't done that yourself, no, you don't have that right.
But to cast insults about my knowledge and accuse me of being anti-intellectual without fully interacting with my thinking is over the top.
So would it be okay to cast insults about your knowledge and anti-intellectuality assuming your thinking was fully interacted with? See, I know you wouldn't agree to that. You're too hypocritical. It's your mock piety all over again. Not to mention that I've been keeping up with your dialogue with Steve on this blog for the past couple months, and I know your thinking has been thoroughly dissected and refuted and blown to smithereens.
I love watching how people point out obvious flaws and errors and blatant contradictions in your words, Ed, and how you just go about ignoring them when you respond. Your mock piety is so blatantly obvious it's funny sometimes. Paul just pointed out how you're not doing what you said we should in, "mastering how to deliver a succinct presentation of the gospel," the contradiction and hypocrisy is blatant, and what do you do? You simply ignore it when you respond. Your mock piety is evident to all, it's clear as crystal, and yet you go on unphased in your performance, hoping people don't pay attention to the man behind the curtain.
Go on pretending you want a love-fest, Ed. We all know it's not true. You just got mad when your opposition pushed back and called you out for who you are.
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Perhaps you should take this post, take the whole thread even, place it before your pastor, let him review your comments toward me and ask him if they fall into the category of Christ-like diaglogue.
DeleteShall I ask him specifically if it falls into the category of Christ's words to the mock pious frauds of his day?
And for the record, I, like you, don't submit what I say to a review board.
Scripture has some very sober things to say about how young men should respond to older men.
Bite me. Like Paul said, you're not my mom or my pastor. Plus, the Bible has sober things to say about how young CHRISTIAN men should respond to older CHRISTIAN men. Your mock piety belies your claims to be a Christian “older man” in the first place. And quite frankly, that wouldn’t make a difference to me. I respond to everyone alike. I don’t have to be less adamant towards you even if you are a Christian.
Let someone else see the kind of tone you take with men you don't even know.
I can see right through you, Ed. I know your kind very well.
Look at Rock's comments. He disagreed with me, but his disagreement had an entirely different flavor to it.
So Rock was gracious. What of it? He had no obligation to be gracious after how you've conducted your dialogues with people like Paul and Steve who have been more than gracious in their dedication of their time and efforts to interact with what you say. He has the option to be gracious or not to be gracious. He chose the former, I chose the latter. You may like Rock’s decision more than mine, but we weren't obligated to go one way or the other.
I like to respond in ways that reveal my opponents' flaws for the benefit of others, their feelings notwithstanding.
BTW: there isn't a single contradiction or a shred of incoherence between any of the remarks I have made. And, no one has pointed one out. Just saying.
Paul Manata:
"Ed, btw, I notice you spend a lot of time here arguing about all sorts of things and not spending your time developing succinct gospel presentations etc. In fact, you seem to spend more time telling others how to behave and criticizing natural theology and lawgic and book larnin than Steve or others do discussing natural theology arguments. The irony is rich!"
Prince Asbel:
"Paul just pointed out how you're not doing what you said we should in, "mastering how to deliver a succinct presentation of the gospel," the contradiction and hypocrisy is blatant, and what do you do? You simply ignore it when you respond."
Paul Manta pointed it out, I reminded you of it, and so you're 'just lying'. It's amazing to be accused of sinful conduct in my dialogue with you when you're not only oozing with mock piety, but commit blatant lying as well. You're such a goon.
That anyone would accuse me of anti-intellectualism would be mocked by those who actually know me, like my pastor, my elders, my friends, my colleagues. My library contains over 5,000 volumes that I have been collecting for 0ver 33 years now.
Yeah, and Dave Hunt claimed to know more about Calvinism than most Calvinists because he could show you his vast array of reformed works and the highlighting in them. You’re not the first anti-intellectual to protest the title due to his comprehensive library of books.
The idea that Scripture requires a college education in order to be rightly understood is no different from Rome's version of the magisterium.
DeleteOf course, I never said you needed a college education to rightly understand scripture. I used the backwoods hick purely as an example of someone who prefers not to refine his way of thinking since, allegedly, he only needs Jesus, whatever that may mean. You can simply remove college from that mock sentence I wrote, and it still fits you fine.
Scripture is sufficient for defending itself and attacking ungodly philosophies where they stand.
Right, which is why your pithy statements about, “mastering how to deliver a succinct presentation of the gospel,” are undermined by these very words.
It is the proverbial "lion in a cage." You want to see how well it can defend itself and attack, just open the cage.
Why? Why not spend my time, “mastering how to deliver a succinct presentation of the gospel?” You’re STILL contradicting yourself on this point. I know it, Paul knows it, and you know it.
And on that note, I knew the gospel looong before I knew it could defend itself on any intellectual level with other religions. So did a lot of my former acquaintances from back then. Most of them still don’t believe that, though they could present the gospel to you quite well. Merely knowing the gospel and how to present it doesn’t prove the Bible’s ability to refute contrary worldviews. That requires more than simply knowing the gospel.
Every part of man has been impacted by the fall. Nothing remains in him that is not tainted with sin and cursed.
You don’t have to tell me that, Ed. I’m a Calvinist, and am no fan of William Lane Craig.
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