I’ve been exploring the relationship between regeneration and faith. Does regeneration automatically issue in faith, or can there be impediments to faith despite a regenerate heart?
Mind you, I think regeneration inevitably issues in faith, for that’s the goal of regeneration. But it’s a question of timing.
Take the familiar case of the disciples. One of the recurrent themes in the Gospels is their defective faith. They chronically doubt or outright disbelieve what Jesus tells them. It’s only in light of Easter that they come to exercise robust faith in Christ. And, in a sense, that’s more a case of walking by sight rather than faith. They believe what they see.
On an analogous note is the crisis of faith which John the Baptist suffered in prison (Mt 11:2-6). At that point he was having second thoughts about the claims of Christ.
Of course, that’s easy to explain. He was lonely and afraid. Depressed. Not in his right mind.
Still, he did not, at this juncture, have a credible profession of faith (as the saying goes).
Or take Jeremiah’s complaint that God deceived him (Jer 20:7). His sense of betrayal reflects a false belief about God.
Again, this is easy to explain. He’s been ostracized for proclaiming a deeply unpopular message. So he’s discouraged. Feeling hopeless and alone.
In each case it’s reasonable to assume that the individuals in question were saved or regenerate. Yet that didn’t automatically resort in the formation of proper religious beliefs. Countervailing circumstances succeeded in temporarily blocking or repressing faith. Faithless rather than faithful. And I don’t mean behavior. I mean their mental state. A lack of faith, despite God’s grace in their hearts and lives.
Let’s now consider a different type of case:
10The LORD spoke to Manasseh and to his people, but they paid no attention. 11 Therefore the LORD brought upon them the commanders of the army of the king of Assyria, who captured Manasseh with hooks and bound him with chains of bronze and brought him to Babylon. 12And when he was in distress, he entreated the favor of the LORD his God and humbled himself greatly before the God of his fathers. 13He prayed to him, and God was moved by his entreaty and heard his plea and brought him again to Jerusalem into his kingdom. Then Manasseh knew that the LORD was God (2 Chron 33:10-13).
When, as an adult, Manasseh exercises faith in God, for the first time in life (apparently), does this mean God regenerated him in captivity? Certainly that’s one possibility.
Of course, he could pray to God because he’d been indoctrinated in the true faith as a child. He had that to draw on.
So another possibility is that faith didn’t take without a suitable, external stimulus. Perhaps the capacity was there all along, but remained dormant until his extremity made it relevant to his situation. He suddenly saw his need, and the corresponding answer to his need.
Wow:::>
ReplyDeleteDoes regeneration automatically issue in faith, or can there be impediments to faith despite a regenerate heart?
Ah, ok!
Which question should I answer first?
Huh, ah, ok as I scratch my flakely skull!
I am rereading a book by Robert Capon. In the book he tackles the parables of Jesus from a broadway, a very broad, broadway.
One of the parables he picks up on is the one about the "Kingdom" being like "leaven". He apparently had experience baking because he grasps the point Jesus is making and continues to make, based on those questions cited above, that yeast is mixed with the water and then the water is mixed with the flour, which parenthetically was kernels of grain first, which was sown first, followed by a death and new life so as to become useful to the baker to grind up into a usable flour so that it could be leavened so it come be eaten and so the circular goes!
Sometimes we need help and a question posed, like that one, will help in the Elect coming out of darkness and to Salvation to laboring finding the Sabbath Rest! Otherwise, it is going downhill into he said he said and deteriorate quickly there.
Are there phases of faith?
Yes.
If regeneration does not "immediately" effect faith, would that not mean we can be united to Christ (Romans 6:3-7) without being in Christ (8:1)?
ReplyDeleteAlthough a person is either "in" Christ or out of Christ, there are, in a sense, degrees of being in Christ.
ReplyDeleteAs you know, Paul has a doctrine of election. (I mention Paul because you cited Paul.)
So there's a sense, and not a trivial sense, in which the elect are "in" Christ (i.e. in union with Christ) before they "come" to Christ (i.e. come in faith).
It's because they're "in" Christ from eternity that they will eventually be "in" Christ in time.
Conception, birth, conversion realize in time a relation which was prior to time. Their eternal union with Christ in the decree is what grounds and ensures their conscious, existential union with Christ in life. The decretal union is realized in stages.
Though I am not well read, the way in which Reformed authors have described union with Christ has always confused me. I thought that in Scripture it exclusively refers to the point at which we are regenerated, though I of course acknowledge that and all else is predicated on God's eternal decree.
ReplyDeleteI've discussed the idea of latent faith in those whom God has regenerated with some people before, but it was so long ago I forgot to mention the other obstacle I had, at the time, to it: given passages like 1 John 3:9 and Hebrews 11:6, would it not contradict the doctrine of total depravity to assert that faith can come some time noticeably after regeneration? If faith is a precondition for pleasing God, and those who are regenerates cannot continue to sin, that would seem to imply one who no longer continuously sins can continuously fail to please God. But Romans 8:7-8 seems to equate failure to please God with sin.
Another "wow"::::>
ReplyDeleteIt's because they're "in" Christ from eternity that they will eventually be "in" Christ in time.
For me, the difficulty leaves when by Faith I accept the Word of God as is.
One must be born again to understand what you wrote noted above.
Capon, in his book, Kingdom, Grace, Judgment ... Eerdman, page 239 writes:
"... For as in our first birth into this world we did nothing and triumphed gloriously, so in the second birth of our death we need do even less to triumph more. ...".
For me, the sense becomes clear when I think about what Paul wrote in Roman's 7, here:
Rom 7:4 Likewise, my brothers, you also have died to the law through the body of Christ, so that you may belong to another, to him who has been raised from the dead, in order that we may bear fruit for God.
The question I always come to is how can one become "another"? Isn't Jesus "eternal"?
It is the Work of God Himself that any of us may belong to another, to Him who has been raised from the dead, as Paul also points, here:
Col 2:11 In him also you were circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body of the flesh, by the circumcision of Christ,
Col 2:12 having been buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through faith in the powerful working of God, who raised him from the dead.
Col 2:13 And you, who were dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses,
Col 2:14 by canceling the record of debt that stood against us with its legal demands. This he set aside, nailing it to the cross.
...
Eph 2:4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us,
Eph 2:5 even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ--by grace you have been saved--
Eph 2:6 and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,
Eph 2:7 so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.
Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God,
Eph 2:9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast.
Paul the Apostle is the only New Testament writer who uses the Greek Word:
συζωοποιέω
suzōopoieō
sood-zo-op-oy-eh'-o
From G4862 and G2227; to reanimate conjointly with (figuratively): - quicken together with.
While the world, when conjoined twins are born, wants to separate them, God wants to conjoin and reanimate us so we end up being regenerated into His very likeness and image. Jesus is tasked with the power of transforming our lowly bodies to become like His glorious Body! He did say, "I will build My Church"!!
Nat- you're just a stick in the vine.
ReplyDeleteRyan,
ReplyDeleteWell, that’s largely a question of theological method. At one level is the question of how to relate different foci of the same author. For instance, in Rom 6, Paul accentuates the existential dimension of the Christian faith, while in parts of Rom 8-9, and 11 he goes behind the existential dimension to the antemundane underpinnings of the historical outcome. So there’s the question of how to interrelated different foci in Romans: time and eternity.
At a higher level is the question of how to relate one writer to another. For instances, you’re mixing categories from John, Paul, and Hebrews. But each author must be understood on his own terms before we’re in a position to compare and coordinate what one author says with another.
Then, at a yet higher level, is how we translate the findings of exegetical theology or redemptive-historical into systematic theology or philosophical theology. I’m really operating at that higher level.
RYAN SAID:
ReplyDelete“Though I am not well read, the way in which Reformed authors have described union with Christ has always confused me.”
Here’s how the WLC defines the covenant of grace:
Question 31: With whom was the covenant of grace made?
Answer: The covenant of grace was made with Christ as the second Adam, and in him with all the elect as his seed.
This, of course, represents a preexisting (antemundane) relation between Christ and the elect. That’s equivalent to saying the elect are already in Christ, or union with Christ, by virtue of the “covenant of grace.” They are parties to the same covenant. Related by covenant.
A Johannes Vos says in his commentary on the WLC, “It was made in eternity, before the creation of the world, between God the Father and God the Son,” 74.
However, the catechism prefers to reserve “union with Christ” for the “application” phase, viz. effectual calling. That’s a semantic convention.
Here are a few articles on this vital subject:
ReplyDeleteThe Grace Of Vital Union With Christ In Regeneration Precedes And Secures All
What is the nature of the life granted at regeneration? Is it eternal? Is it the "life" spoken of in John 20:31?
ReplyDeleteRegeneration confers eternal life.
ReplyDelete"Regeneration confers eternal life."
ReplyDeleteI'm not sure I know what you mean.
Is some sort of life granted in regeneration prior to regeneration conferring eternal life?
Or do you perhaps mean that the life of regeneration is the same as eternal life?
Just to tip toe in here Green, on one point.
ReplyDeleteWhat is the difference in "generation" and "re"--generation?
When was the decree made for the "generations"?
When were the "generations" of Adam's race cut off from the Eternal Life source?
Another way of looking at it is how in the book of Hebrews, chapter 7, the writer treats "tithing" where Levi, in effect gave tithes to God simply because he was in the loins of his father Abram when Abram gave a tenth to Melchizedek, cf Genesis 14.
Heb 7:9 One might even say that Levi himself, who receives tithes, paid tithes through Abraham,
Heb 7:10 for he was still in the loins of his ancestor when Melchizedek met him.
“What is the difference in "generation" and "re"--generation?”
ReplyDeleteI understand regeneration to mean the same thing as “born again.” I assume we are born again with some sort of new life. My question is, Is it the same life spoken of in John 20:31?
GREEN SAID:
ReplyDelete"I'm not sure I know what you mean. Is some sort of life granted in regeneration prior to regeneration conferring eternal life?"
The adjective ("eternal") doesn't stand in contrast to another type of life that's conferred by regeneration.
Rather, there's a contrast between the life of the regenerate and the life of the unregenerate.
"Rather, there's a contrast between the life of the regenerate and the life of the unregenerate."
ReplyDeleteDoesn't John 20:31 suggest that the life of the regenerate is conferred upon believing, not prior to believing?
You're committing the post hoc ergo propter hoc fallacy. That verse states a correlation, but it doesn't explicate the relationship between regeneration, faith, and eternal life. And it doesn't discuss the source of saving faith.
ReplyDeleteFor a more detailed analysis:
http://blogmatics.files.wordpress.com/2010/11/does-regeneration-precede-faith-in-1-john-by-matthew-barrett-ets-paper-nov-2010.pdf
Green
ReplyDeleteYour question keeps on the forefront of my mind.
I was praying about it this morning.
A couple of verses come to mind.
One I already posted from Romans 7.
Another one is here:
Ecc 3:11 He has made everything beautiful in its time. Also, he has put eternity into man's heart, yet so that he cannot find out what God has done from the beginning to the end.
That article Steve points too brings this into focus.
What amazes me is just how little I know about these things!
I believe God sets this whole thing up so that we live by Faith and not by sight or circumstance.
For instance, let me ask you a question or two to illustrate?
How does one "blind" see?
Or how does one born deaf, "hear" the Word of God, if Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God we preach?
You mention and then ask a question, this:
" ... I assume we are born again with some sort of new life. My question is, Is it the same life spoken of in John 20:31?"
I thought about that yesterday and this morning and these Words came to me:
Rom 7:21 So I find it to be a law that when I want to do right, evil lies close at hand.
Rom 7:22 For I delight in the law of God, in my inner being,
Rom 7:23 but I see in my members another law waging war against the law of my mind and making me captive to the law of sin that dwells in my members.
Rom 7:24 Wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death?
...
Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life has set you free in Christ Jesus from the law of sin and death.
So, there are several ways to journey through this present life, these created heavens and earth each of us were born "into" out of our mother's wombs.
We can cast off restraints and live willy nilly.
We can confine ourselves to pious living under the civil laws, "do this, don't do that".
We can live freed up in Christ as slaves of God, servants to all, guided by a proper distinction between the Law and Gospel.
Rom 2:6 He will render to each one according to his works:
Rom 2:7 to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life;
...
The Life of God is eternal.
Whatever Life of God there is from our point of view "begins" after hearing and hearing the Word of Truth even though it was decreed beforehand.
Where does it leave us?
We are left with being believers as John 20:31 teaches.
Some, like Steve, are gifted to explicate these things. It is amazing just how much of God's Grace comes out of him.
What's even more amazing is just how many people take exception to what comes from him and the others that make up Triablogue!
I am amazed when they stay gentle of Spirit and not revert to their old nature when ridiculous charges come at them. Sometimes, though, there is some clay in their response to those ridiculous charges when they are flung out at them!
Pro 18:8 The words of a whisperer are like delicious morsels; they go down into the inner parts of the body.
Pro 18:9 Whoever is slack in his work is a brother to him who destroys.
Pro 18:10 The name of the LORD is a strong tower; the righteous man runs into it and is safe.
Pro 18:11 A rich man's wealth is his strong city, and like a high wall in his imagination.
Pro 18:12 Before destruction a man's heart is haughty, but humility comes before honor.
If you right now reading this confess the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart God raised Him from the dead, you shall be saved!
What you are discovering is exactly what Proverbs teaches, here:
Pro 16:20 Whoever gives thought to the word will discover good, and blessed is he who trusts in the LORD.
Pro 16:21 The wise of heart is called discerning, and sweetness of speech increases persuasiveness.
Pro 16:22 Good sense is a fountain of life to him who has it, but the instruction of fools is folly.