"We begin with what we think we have good reason to believe is true: the Catholic Church in the present is identical to the apostolic church of the first century. It is, to be sure, far more developed in both theology and ecclesiology, but the seeds for such development were present from the start. Thus, we don't cite Matthew 16 as evidence of this. Rather, we read Matthew 16 in light of the history and development that has already taken place."
http://romereturn.blogspot.com/2010/01/sola-scriptura-and-scope-of-canon-guide.html
How would it ever be possible to distinguish a true ecclesiastical claimant from a false claimant using that backwards methodology? Isn't that brand of confirmation self-validating? Truth by definition?
Mt 16 can never function as a criterion on that methodology. Rather, "history and development" stamp their interpretation on Mt 16.
Out of curiosity, has anyone ever started out as a cradle Catholic, crossed over to Protestantism, swam the Tiber to go back to Rome, and then finally deciding to leave Rome, and go back to Protestantism?
ReplyDeleteI don't know anybody like that. Do you? While there were certainly howls from Protestants about Francis swimming the Tiber, what would the howls be like from the rank-and-file Catholics if he were to leave Catholicism again for Geneva or Wittenberg.
Especially after making him a celebrity convert.
ReplyDeleteTruth -- that was me. Born and raised Catholic, left around 19 after being born again; went back after a few years, because I really didn't understand the theological differences; spent about 15 more years as a RC, including about three years as a part of Opus Dei. Getting close to what I was really supposed to believe as a Catholic was at first uncomfortable, and then unbearable. I walked out of the confessional in a discussion of "justified by faith alone" with the priest and have not been back.
ReplyDeleteBy the way, it's odd that they compare "acorn" with "oak tree." I've grown acorns from scratch. As soon as the acorn begins to grow, the first thing it does is send a taproot straight down. This is firm and straight. The tree shoots are tall and straight too. So it's odd that the "oak/acorn" metaphor can be applied without some explanation of all the twists and turns that are made. The actual oak tree is as straight as an arrow from the time it starts growing.
ReplyDeleteHi John Bugay,
ReplyDeleteDr. Francis Beckwith should model himself and his journey after you!!
Could you imagine the howls from our Called to Communion friends?
Truth, I always hold out hope that these guys will come to their senses. Rome makes you accept some things that ought to make thinking persons pretty squeamish.
ReplyDelete"Truth, I always hold out hope that these guys will come to their senses. Rome makes you accept some things that ought to make thinking persons pretty squeamish."
ReplyDeleteThat's exactly what the new atheists say about the whole of Christianity; somehow you have managed to avoid squeamishness, or have you?
Dozie: That's exactly what the new atheists say about the whole of Christianity; somehow you have managed to avoid squeamishness, or have you?
ReplyDeleteOf course this is an off-hand remark to someone I know. When I say "squeamish" with regard to Catholicism, I understood what I was feeling to be the inner witness of the Holy Spirit directing me away from idolatry.
As for "the new Atheists," what they see now is as "thru a glass darkly." There will come a time when they see face to face. And then it will be really easy for them to define what they feel.
JB
ReplyDeletethat cracks me up! :)
But really really: ".... And then it will be really easy for them to define what they feel...".
Do you really think by that time in their feeling they will have the time to take a breather and define that?
Nata, let's just say it won't be hard to understand!
ReplyDelete"Of course this is an off-hand remark to someone I know. When I say "squeamish" with regard to Catholicism, I understood what I was feeling to be the inner witness of the Holy Spirit directing me away from idolatry."
ReplyDeleteIt does seem to this writer that you have neither a clue of whatever you think you understand nor of the Holy Spirit. By your own account you were once Catholic, then Protestant, then Catholic and now Protestant. Does not seem like someone who has a clue of the leading of the Spirit. Get some stability then you might begin to understand. Your state of mind may also explain why you fail to see the connection between you and the new atheists – try listening to Christopher Hitchens; it will give you an idea how you sound to a Catholic.
It does seem to this writer that you have neither a clue of whatever you think you understand nor of the Holy Spirit. By your own account you were once Catholic, then Protestant, then Catholic and now Protestant. Does not seem like someone who has a clue of the leading of the Spirit.
ReplyDeleteI was a person who wanted to give Catholicism the benefit of the doubt, "the most charitable possible treatment." Sounds like something you should applaud.
Get some stability then you might begin to understand.
I was plenty stable for 15 years as an adult as a practicing Catholic, which led me into Opus Dei. You see, I'm a very gracious and charitable person, who wanted to understand, who wanted to do everything the right way. You, on the other hand, now want to pontificate on what God's timing should be.
Your state of mind may also explain why you fail to see the connection between you and the new atheists – try listening to Christopher Hitchens; it will give you an idea how you sound to a Catholic.
If I feel any sense of disgust at the Roman church, it is because I have now dug deeply enough to find the rot which they've always sought to hide. The Roman church and its quest for glory genuinely deserves the disgust of any devoted Christian who seeks the truth and who seeks to follow Christ in a biblical way.
You really are a person who is flailing against the air, who has no idea what you are talking about.
Dozie:
ReplyDeleteI know you didn't mean well by your comment, but I do agree with it in that I hope that John will remain stable in the Gospel and increase in his understanding.
As for the comparison to New Atheism, only the most ignorant adherents of the papacy confuse atheists and the Reformed. But yes, I'm sure some see things that way.
-TurretinFan
TF, I appreciate your good wishes. I have been studying these issues now for a long time. There is no where else to go but to the Reformed faith. Everything else is lacking.
ReplyDelete