"The most predictable thing to observe in the thread (including the comments) is the usual recourse to the mentality (often noted on this blog) of "the only saved Catholic is a bad Catholic." In other words, to be saved and to attain to the sublime heights of being a Christian (like all our Protestant friends are) is to reject those elements of Catholicism that Protestantism particularly rejects. To be a Christian one has to, in effect, be a Protestant (i.e., a bad, pick-and-choose, "cafeteria" Catholic). So if a Catholic is a Protestant in all the key areas (e.g., sola fide and sola Scriptura) then he is a Christian. If he is a consistent Catholic, he cannot be a Christian, because Catholicism is not Christian."
http://socrates58.blogspot.com/2009/12/anti-catholic-protestant-apologist.html
Couldn't put it better myself.
Continuing:
"I thank God that Jason Engwer and other Protestant anti-Catholics are fellow Christians. I think that our Lord will have mercy on their ignorance, and besides, they'll have a lot of time in purgatory to straighten out all their falsehoods and silly caricatures of Catholic teaching, and of Catholics. I truly, eagerly look forward to fellowship in heaven with my anti-Catholic brethren in Christ, when they are at last fully Catholic, and Christians finally start treating each other the way they should: enjoying the unity that God always intended."
On the one hand, Armstrong is offended at our suggestion that the only good Catholic is a bad Catholic. On the other hand, Armstrong takes the position that the only good Protestant is a bad Protestant.
'On the one hand, Armstrong is offended at our suggestion that the only good Catholic is a bad Catholic. On the other hand, Armstrong takes the position that the only good Protestant is a bad Protestant.'
ReplyDeleteI'm just after reading the post you quoted on Dave Armstrong's blog and I completely missed that...
"On the one hand, Armstrong is offended at our suggestion that the only good Catholic is a bad Catholic. On the other hand, Armstrong takes the position that the only good Protestant is a bad Protestant."
ReplyDeleteIs it really symmetrical? Protestants are saying that a "bad" Catholic is saved, whilst a "good" Catholic ("good" meaning he or she believes and follows Magisterium teaching) is damned to Hell.
But I think Armstrong is saying that both good and bad Protestants will be saved.
So the two positions not exactly a neat mirror.
Steve,
ReplyDeleteAlways fun hearing from the anti-Protestant.
TUAD,
For the record, an anti-Catholic is anyone who disagrees with Dave Armstrong. I know he's got this pretend definition that he pulls out, but when you look at who he calls an anti-Catholic it's pretty clear that it's nothing but a sledge-hammer to use against those he hates.
TUAD,
ReplyDeleteHe's saying (some) Protestants will be saved when God corrects their invincible ignorance in Purgatory.
TUAD,
ReplyDeleteHe's saying (some) Protestants are saved in spite of their Protestant distinctives. That's the mirror image of the loophole he finds so offensive in Protestant polemics vis-a-vis Catholics. So, yes, it's symmetrical.
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ReplyDeleteDAVE ARMSTRONG SAID:
ReplyDelete"We say that Protestantism is good and could be better by virtue of the fullness of biblical, historical Catholicism that it lacks."
Really? Is that what the Tridentine Fathers said? Is that what Leo X said in Exsurge Domine?
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ReplyDeleteDave Armstrong said...
ReplyDelete"It's what Popes John XXIII and Paul VI and John Paul II and Benedict XVI have said. You may think that is a contradiction (it is not; more like a strikingly changed emphasis), but you still have to grapple with what the Church has taught, through these recent popes, and the Second Vatican Council. You can interpret that as you wish (as a reversal or supposed self-contradiction or disproof of infallibility), but it will do no good for you to always cite the understandably more polemical stuff from the 16th century right after the Protestant Revolution, when there is 450 years of further development after that."
In other words, Catholicism is a blueprint for anarchy. Thanks for confirming that.
"And why do you bother interacting with an 'evil' person in the first place?"
ReplyDeleteWhy do you ask, Mr. I-Don't-Debate-Anti-Catholics?
Dave Armstrong said...
ReplyDelete"It's what Popes John XXIII and Paul VI and John Paul II and Benedict XVI have said."
Does that come with a lollipop?
And why do you bother interacting with an 'evil' person in the first place?"
It's necessary to do periodic weeding to keep the tares from taking over the garden. Have to free up some space for the wheat, ya know.
"Of course, you can always retract your expressed opinion (I can be upgraded..."
What about downgraded?
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ReplyDeleteI grant that you are the expert at smart-assery, Dave. But being as how you've said you don't debate with anti-Catholics, and you likewise call Steve an anti-Catholic, then why ask questions that can only lead to debate? I don't recall Steve ever saying that he doesn't talk to evil people, so it's not like you've got him in some kind of double-standard here (the only double-standard here is the one you apply to your position--I'll not debate anti-Catholics except when I do).
ReplyDeleteDave asked:
ReplyDelete---
Why do you ask why I asked?
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Why do you ask why I asked why you asked? (Wow, this is amazingly fun. Put me down for next weekend.)
Seriously, if you can't grasp why I would ask you why you don't uphold your own standards, you probably need to submit yourself to a priest for remedial training. Which reminds me. Does your priest yet know that you represent the face of Catholicism so poorly to so many? Or do you have no priest but yourself (in which case ignorance would be expected of said priest and I withdraw the question)?
I mean, we're just asking questions and all. Might as well make them useful.
DAVE ARMSTRONG SAID:
ReplyDelete"Downgraded from 'evil'? What's next: I am damned for sure; I'm Satan incarnate?"
Maybe something along the lines of The Omen. Or Rosemary's Baby. Did you have a preference?
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ReplyDeleteDAVE ARMSTRONG SAID:
ReplyDelete"Can't you guys come up with something a bit more original than this half-baked silliness?"
We save our best material for worthy opponents. Sorry, but you didn't make the cut. Try again next year.
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ReplyDeleteDave,
ReplyDeleteA little reading comprehension would be a bonus for you. I said: "...why ask questions that can only lead to debate?"
Right there for all to see.
In any case, I'm still waiting. Does your priest know that you post comments here? If so, does he approve of what you say?
You know, Scripture says we are to love our brethren, yet Dave regularly treats Steve, Peter,James Swan, Turretinfan, myself and others with little more than contempt.
ReplyDeleteThe pattern is always the same...he interjects himself into a discussion, beginning with pious words. Within a few posts, we're able to bring out the real Dave, the Dave full of contempt. Maybe it never occurs to Dave that he gets treated this way because it serves our purpose: to get the real Dave to come out to play. Honestly, that's what is really going on here. Dave falls for it every time.
Scripture also says love doesn't keep a record of wrongs. Dave, Pious Dave, acts like he loves his brothers, yet he also inevitably starts to list the persons and ways he believes he's been wrong. Clearly he keeps a record of wrongs, so Dave really doesn't love his brothers.
Dave Armstrong - Pious Fraud.
Here's a word of advice for Dave...keep your big mouth shut and these situations could easily be avoided. You remind me of the victims of domestic violence who go back to the men who abuse them.
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ReplyDeleteOh yes, I feel the love radiating out of your very pores.
ReplyDeleteNote carefully...
ReplyDeleteDave's words are all about Dave.
Sorry,Dave,you fool nobody,except yourself. Your actions give the lie to your words. You are a foolish man full of contempt for anybody that does not agree with Dave.
You can't even keep your own word, again no surprise, for you just wrote elsewhere you had over one hundred Christmas cards to write, and would let us have the last word...yet here you are, yet again, trying to get the last word.
Let the record show,yet again...Dave Armstrong,liar, pious fraud.
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ReplyDeleteI wonder why I never believe Dave when he says he's going to ignore me and go away.
ReplyDeleteOh yeah! I remember! Experience.
...
So one day, Tommy was working down at the docks. Union was on strike, he's down on his luck (it's tough).
Thankfully, Uncle Dave came by at that moment. "Tommy, I got a present for you."
Tommy's normally the suspicious type, but he sees Dave's got a Benjamin Franklin held out.
"Go get Gina a nice present."
Tommy can't believe his luck. He spends the $100 with Gina, and they make it through another week.
Years pass by. Tommy works his way up and soon he owns the docks. Then Uncle Dave comes by.
"Tommy. Remember that time I gave you $100 when you were in need? It's payback time now. See, there's this guy named Steve and he's been harassing me. I want you to put an end to it. You wouldn't want to hold out on Uncle Dave, would you? After how much I gave you? After my sacrifice for you?"
Tommy realizes he's got no choice. He could try to pay back the $100, but he knows Uncle Dave isn't interested in money. His cash was just a tool to enslave Tommy, nothing more.
Tommy got bought, hard. Tough break for the poor fellow. I heard he's doing 20 to life in Attica and Gina's back on the streets.
But don't worry. Uncle Dave's having himself a merry little Christmas. Yes sir.
Dave Armstrong said:
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Maybe if you're lucky, DA will ban himself from your blog as he did mine.
It's hard to be a martyr if no one throws stones at you.