Though interestingly enough, it is the non-Reformed Baptists who maintain three very Catholic dogmas (contra their Reformed ‘brothers’): free will, belief/conversion before regeneration, and unlimited/general atonement
http://articulifidei.blogspot.com/2008/12/james-white-vs-dr-ergun-caner-or.html?showComment=1228243260000#c3926662172470413837
Of course, both Catholics and non-Reformed Baptists believe in prevenient grace, i.e., a degree of regeneration in order to allow the will to choose Christ. Without this grace, the will is depraved and unable to repent and come to faith. So, it is not right to say that, for the non-Calvinist, belief comes before regeneration. The difference is that, for the non-Calvinist, the regeneration that comes before belief creates a space for choice, not a definite determination (irresistible grace).
ReplyDeleteKevin,
ReplyDeleteI don't think I've ever hear that there is a degree of regeneration. Can you tell more about this position?
Even though I disagree with the position that faith precedes renegeration, I do wish those non-Calvinist protestants would speak more about God's grace rather than pointing to some "decision" or "free-will."
It's interesting though. It's okay for prevenient grace to be irresistible, but not for salvific grace.
Mark
Of course, both Catholics and non-Reformed Baptists believe in prevenient grace, i.e., a degree of regeneration in order to allow the will to choose Christ. Without this grace, the will is depraved and unable to repent and come to faith. So, it is not right to say that, for the non-Calvinist, belief comes before regeneration. The difference is that, for the non-Calvinist, the regeneration that comes before belief creates a space for choice, not a definite determination (irresistible grace).
ReplyDeleteThis would only be true of actual Free Will Baptists.
If you read Elmer Towns, to take one of Ergun Caner's counterparts, carefully, you'll find that he equates Arminian "prevenient grace" with "common grace." But that's NOT prevenient grace. In Arminianism UPG is a form of "semi-regeneration" insofar as it is a type of grace that comes to all men as a benefit of the atonement and is applied to their wills, lifting it into a libertarian state.
Gene,
ReplyDeleteStating it in terms of a degree or partial regeneration would be a violation of free will.
hhmmmm...
Mark
Well, Arminians qua Arminians stipulate to T...and it UPG that alleviates T and moves the will into a libertarian state. So...
ReplyDeletea. They stipulate to deterministic freedom but
b. Take it away via UPG
c. And then argue against Calvinism from time to time, by criticizing us on deterministic freedom.
Towns and his sort would, if I'm following them correctly, and I have interacted with them enough to know I am, say that the will is always in a libertarian state, for God created man that way (so, I gather this means either that it was not lost in the Fall or somehow common grace is enough to alleviate it if it was lost. Their ideas here are so incoherent, it's hard to know for sure).
So, yes, you're right...they would say that the actual Arminian doctrine of UPG is, itself a violation of "free will." This is a place where many non-Reformed Baptists - the IFBx type and their counterparts in the SBC - not the General / Free Will Baptists themselves, have departed both from Scripture and from orthodox Christianity on this issue.
So...I guess my reading comprehension is off these days.
ReplyDeleteOr I'm not making sense.
Gene, I'm with you and I just explained to a friend the other day about the T and prevenient grace. It remind me of a vegetarian who eats veggie burgers claiming that they still eat burgers. They don't really understand that the whole veggie part of the equation nullifys the burger.
Mark