Monday, August 27, 2007

Apolonio Says

Apolonio Says:
August 27th, 2007 at 7:09 pm

Mr. White isn’t a reputable scholar as Perry already said. He is a popular apologist and the public moderated debates seem to be just for show sometimes. Notice that he always wants things public, either his radio, CA’s radio, moderated debates, etc as if having dinner and debating these things are not enough. I used to be into those Catholic/Protestant and Craig debates in high school when I thought it was cool. Until, of course, I encountered a more rigorous way of interacting with ideas. Being in a prominent university with a top philosophy department will do that to you. Plus, I have learned to read actual scholars, not those who quote Athanasius in a debate as if that reveals anything, but those who actually spent a lot of their life studying the Fathers, Scripture, etc.

And the whole notion that just because you can’t answer a question in a debate, therefore you lose, is ridiculous. If you don’t think it is, just go to a conference or a seminar. There will be times when you simply don’t know the answer. That doesn’t mean anything. There are so many Protestant ideas around that White’s arguments would be the least thing I am concerned about. First, again, he isn’t a reputable scholar. I’d rather go to actual scholars. If I want to read about Paul, I’d go to Schriener [sic], Dunn, Wright, Boyarin, Roo, Sanders, etc. If I wanna see what kind of argument White would present I’d rather see what Carson has to say. Second, he doesn’t have the philosophical sophistication that is needed to do theology. As Perry already noted, he doesn’t know a lot about philosophy of language. You can also look at his response to Beckwith’s conversion and you will see his arguments about Beckwith reading Trent laughable. Those are the types of arguments you would like give an example of a bad argumentation in a logic and reasoning 101 course. Third, what has he really contributed in theology? Nothing. His dissertation is crappy. Yeah, it may be good for the pew but I don’t think he defended his thesis and his thesis doesn’t have anything new to add in the debate. That’s the type of work you should see in an undergraduate course. I mean, if he sends that to a reputable peer-reviewed journal and they accepted it, I might change my mind. But he doesn’t have any contribution at all. Yeah he debated Spong and Crossan. But those are dead horses. Wright already beat the crap out of Crossan. And Spong..well, who the heck takes him seriously nowadays? Sungenis is terrible in theology. Fr. Pacwa isn’t a Schindler, Scola, Schonborn, etc. On and on.

http://energeticprocession.wordpress.com/2007/08/25/an-apologetic-two-fer/#comments


Apolonio ben Shlomo Says:

August 27th, 64 AD at 7:09 pm

Jesus isn’t a reputable scholar—as Caiaphas already said. He’s a popular apologist, and the public debates with the scribes and Pharisees seem to be just for show sometimes. Notice that he always wants things public, as if having dinner and debating these things are not enough. He's just a carpenter.

I used to be into those Jesus/Sadducees and St. Peter debates at the yeshiva when I thought it was cool. Until, of course, I encountered a more rigorous way of interacting with ideas. Being at the Academy will do that to you. Plus, I have learned to read actual scholars, not those who quote the OT in a debate as if that reveals anything, but those who actually spent a lot of their life studying the Torah, Nichomachean Ethics, and Prior Analytics,

And the whole notion that just because the Pharisees and Sadducees can’t answer a question Jesus sprung on them in public debate, therefore they lose, is ridiculous. If you don’t think it is, just go to a conference or a seminar. There will be times when you simply don’t know the answer. That doesn’t mean anything.

Same thing with St. Peter. First off, he isn’t a reputable scholar. I’d rather go to actual scholars like Philo, Aristotle, and Hillel.

Second, St. Peter doesn’t have the philosophical sophistication that is needed to do theology. As Pliny already noted, he doesn’t know a lot about philosophy of language. He's just a fisherman.

You can also look at his response to the Sanhedrin in Acts 4 and you will see his arguments about OT messianic prophecy are laughable. Those are the types of arguments you would like give an example of a bad argumentation in a logic and reasoning 101 course.

Third, what has he really contributed in theology? Nothing. 2 Peter is crappy. Yeah, it may be good for the pew but I don’t think he defended his thesis and his thesis doesn’t have anything new to add in the debate. That’s the type of work you should see in an undergraduate course. I mean, if he sends 2 Peter that to a reputable peer-reviewed journal and they accepted it, I might change my mind. But he doesn’t have any contribution at all. Yeah, he debated Gamaliel. But that’s beating a dead horse. Who the heck takes him seriously nowadays?

44 comments:

  1. Ha!!! Nice work Steve.

    Dr. White has linked to your post.

    -Simon

    ReplyDelete
  2. Mr. White isn’t a reputable scholar as Perry already said.

    So, let's just be clear here. White isn't a reputable scholar - but he teaches at the extension for Golden Gate Theological Seminary, where he teaches languages.

    Where does Apolonio teach?

    Yet Apolonio would look to Schreiner, who teaches @ SBTS as a NT professor.

    White has an M.Div from Fuller.
    Schreiner's comes from Conservative Baptist Seminary, Ph.D. from Fuller.

    So, where's the difference? Is an M.Div from Fuller subpar compared to one from CBS?

    White has chosen to invest himself in the local church and in teaching men who will lead those churches. GGBTS serves the entire West Coast. It's also the same seminary that employs Don Sailhammer. Now, does GGBTS have some inconsistent faculty selections? If so, I hope Apolonio will contact Jeff Iorg and "have a word" with him. I'm sure Jeff will enjoy a 22 year old student from Rutgers telling him that he has not been employing "real scholars" to teach his seminary students in AZ and that his extension students are getting second class treatment.

    Schreiner has invested himself in the seminary system, where he teaches men who will invest themselves, for the most part, in the local church. His focus is the academy itself and his students.

    The local church, of course, and that particular audience, is the one that White is targeting.

    If Apolonio thinks he can exegete John 6:37 - 45 then let's see him do so. I don't see doctorates and Master's degrees among the list of qualifications for office in the church in the Pauline Epistles. Perhaps Apolonio can point me to them.

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  3. Apolonio -

    When you want to learn about Paul, do you really read Wright, Dunn, Sanders AND Carson? Wow, you must be one confused fellow!

    Let me ask, do you also ready Venema and Piper just for good measure?

    ;)

    Lucas Defalco

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  4. umm.. did I just see you compare Mr. White to Christ?

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  5. Anonymous said:
    ---
    umm.. did I just see you compare Mr. White to Christ?
    ---

    You saw a reductio ad absurdum.

    ReplyDelete
  6. Mangy Donkey8/28/2007 12:43 AM

    "reductio ad absurdum" or not it...ah never mind

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  7. Well, this is the guy who posted a 15 second clip from a debate as if it was a slam dunk.

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  8. It was a work of art. Quite ingenious. This should be framed. It should serve for a good chuckle on a long day...

    LPC

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  9. fallacy of analogy anyone?

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  10. Wow. I'm just having a hard time imagining that someone could write this seriously. Speaking as a young philosophy student if I ever take myself that seriously and start talking like that I'll just have to quit studying philosophy altogether. But then again I'm not at a "top philosophy department" so I probably won't have that problem.

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  11. Sungenis is poor in theology???? You need help and some humility, Sungenis is excellent in theology. As for Mr.White not being a reputable scholar, whilst that maybe so, you should at least grant that he is an excellent apologist, orator, you may not agree with his conclusions, but at least dont try not to sound like a spoilt brat, who is above everyone else. By the way what have you contributed to the world of academics, that allows you to judge people in such areas?

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  12. I think this Alolonio is the same guy who was bashing Dr. White before a debate on Long Island and then turned around when it was his turn to speak with Dr. White, after the debate was over. He waited 20 minutes and then just walked away. We just laughed. Silly boy. But then again, I remember when I was just as silly and then God's Grace got in the way. God can "fix" Apolonio too. For His glory alone.

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  13. Until, of course, I encountered a more rigorous way of interacting with ideas. Being in a prominent university with a top philosophy department will do that to you.

    I don't know if I've seen anything written by Apolonio where he didn't mention that he's in a phil. dept. in a top univ. Reminds me of Andy from "The Office":

    "Degree from Cornell. Y'ever heard of it?"

    ReplyDelete
  14. Scroll down...WAY down (59th, to be exact).

    http://colleges.usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/usnews/edu/college/rankings/brief/t1natudoc_brief.php

    ReplyDelete
  15. Steve,

    Ouch!


    Also, it's rich how Apolonio pokes fun at Dr White's thesis (ie, _The Forgotten Trinity_) while much better-known RC apologists like Madrid, Matatics, and Stravinskas are on record saying the most inane things on the subject. Ie, we have as much biblical evidence for the Assumption of the BVM as we do for the Trinity, the Scr are not sufficient to teach us that the Trinity exists, etc.

    ReplyDelete
  16. Snot-nosed kid. Anyone can take a swipe instead of doing real work.
    Keep up the good work, Dr. White!

    “It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood, who strives valiantly; who errs and comes short again and again; because there is not effort without error and shortcomings; but who does actually strive to do the deed; who knows the great enthusiasm, the great devotion, who spends himself in a worthy cause, who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement and who at the worst, if he fails, at least he fails while daring greatly. So that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who know neither victory nor defeat.” -Theodore Roosevelt

    ReplyDelete
  17. "Scroll down...WAY down (59th, to be exact).

    http://colleges.usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/usnews/edu/college/rankings/brief/t1natudoc_brief.php"

    Well no one should take this source seriously, it is obviously very bias. I mean, Oregon State University is not even listed. Not an accurate representation of the facts.
    :)

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  18. "Also, it's rich how Apolonio pokes fun at Dr White's thesis (ie, _The Forgotten Trinity_) while much better-known RC apologists like Madrid, Matatics, and Stravinskas are on record saying the most inane things on the subject. Ie, we have as much biblical evidence for the Assumption of the BVM as we do for the Trinity, the Scr are not sufficient to teach us that the Trinity exists, etc."

    Where did these apologists say this Rhology? Please qualify your statement, thanks.

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  19. Steve,

    I love your illustration. You have demonstrated how easy it is to spotlight someone's ad hom rantings with a simple and effective illustration. I also want to thank you for helping out average thinking people like me to understand the deep, penetrating, and profound philosophical insights of someone like Apolonio, ;^)

    Blessings in Christ,
    KK

    ReplyDelete
  20. Anon,

    I am referring to Dr White's debates w/ those guys.

    He did one w/ Stravinskas, so check out that one.

    I get mixed up since he has done multiple debates w/ Madrid and Matatics, but check out the really long Matatics debate w/ the Papacy and the long one on the Marian dogmas and you'll hear Matatics saying that. I'm pretty sure he says it in several other debates as well, such as the one on Sola Scriptura as well.
    I don't remember in which one Madrid says it, but it's either in the one about Sola Scriptura or about Icons.

    ReplyDelete
  21. thats kinda sad that Brianny used the idea of God's grace and mercy to make an insult. It's almost like submitting to the atheist's accusation that Christians are demeaning in their desire to "fix" people.

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  22. Even sadder that Anonymous was afraid to tell people who he was before posting...

    ReplyDelete
  23. "Anon,

    I am referring to Dr White's debates w/ those guys.

    He did one w/ Stravinskas, so check out that one.

    I get mixed up since he has done multiple debates w/ Madrid and Matatics, but check out the really long Matatics debate w/ the Papacy and the long one on the Marian dogmas and you'll hear Matatics saying that. I'm pretty sure he says it in several other debates as well, such as the one on Sola Scriptura as well.
    I don't remember in which one Madrid says it, but it's either in the one about Sola Scriptura or about Icons."


    Sir, I think this is called slander and deliberating misleading people, especially when you dont give any clear sources. I dont believe any the above apologists said what you claim, as far as I can recall what some of these apologists ie Matatics did was point to the fact that we have same BASIS or PREMISES in the sense of authority, to believe in the BVM as we do the resurrection for example, that is totally different to what you have claimed.

    ReplyDelete
  24. Steve, this was both funny and brilliant.

    As Jeremiah stated, the same young man who thought it apt to diss Dr. White this way is the same young man who posted a 15 second clip as if it refuted the entirety of Sola Scriptura. Why is it that the philosophical mind of this Rutger's student isn't able to discern the absurdity of taking a comment out of context. Amazing!

    Peace,
    Ray

    ReplyDelete
  25. daryl

    so if i told you my name, which is Sean, then it wouldnt be sad anymore? um ok. im glad we can clearly see which issues are prioritized correctly to be "even more sad".

    ReplyDelete
  26. Anonymous,

    Please, my assertion has been substantiated NUMEROUS times on Dr White's own blog.
    Before you accuse me of slander, go listen to the debates I cited (I told you specifically the Stravinskas one). You didn't, so how would you even know whether this is slander or not?

    ReplyDelete
  27. Well, I'm just telling the truth about what took place in front of my own and Dr. Whites eyes. I'm pretty sure I've got the right guy in Apolonio. And I do believe that a man's heart needs "fixin" before he comes to repentance and trusts in Christ alone in order to have peace with God. That's what happened to me when I was still a papist. God's Grace got in the way. Was that another insult?

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  28. not sure who the other "anonymous" is, but my point was the one that was made concerning daryl's comment.

    not sad,
    sean =)

    ReplyDelete
  29. Um, real scholars have real degrees and do not lie about them, and not those which are practically bought from incestuous institutions...which is exactly what these "Bible Colleges" are. In the university where I attend I have NEVER come across someone from a "Bible College" who could hack it. So I hope that there are at least some out there who could.

    Does the list which reviews schools specifically look at philosophy departments? If you are going to make the assertion that Rutgers doesn't have a top philosopy department, you might want to make sure that your evidence is valid and actually pertains to the argument...but maybe this is just too much to ask from a "Bible College" grad.

    I find it interesting that White&Co. scream foul at every ad hominem used against them, yet at the same time they conveniently turn a blind eye to their own use of ad hominems (Apolonio is 22, his estimation of himself is so and so..etc.) because they never dp that. Guess what folks? There is a term for this (well, actually there are several), we will call it hipocrisy.

    Maybe this post will be deleted and not responded to like every email sent to White&Co.

    Joseph Lilac

    ReplyDelete
  30. Joseph said:
    ---
    In the university where I attend I have NEVER come across someone from a "Bible College" who could hack it.
    ---

    Of course this doesn't provide very much information at all for us to be able to know what you mean by this statement.

    Secondly, you commit a fallacy when you assume that because you have never met such an individual said individual must not exist.

    Third, what is meant by "hack it"? Depending on what you mean there, it is quite possible that the reason "Bible College" students don't "hack it" is because the "Bible College" students are right and YOU are wrong.

    Joseph said:
    ---
    I find it interesting that White&Co. scream foul at every ad hominem used against them, yet at the same time they conveniently turn a blind eye to their own use of ad hominems (Apolonio is 22, his estimation of himself is so and so..etc.) because they never dp that.
    ---

    A) Given the huge amount of ad hominem written against James White, it is physically impossible for him to "scream foul" at every one of them.

    B) Even if it is hypocritical, it wouldn't change the fact that the original charges are still ad hominem.

    C) Not all ad hominem is fallacious ad hominem either. Most of it is, yes; but most is not "all."

    D) Shall we judge you by your same standard here? You are attacking "Bible College" students, not on the basis of their arguments, but on the basis of their being "Bible College" students. You are not attacking White's arguments, you are attacking him personally here. There is a term for this (well, actually there are several), we will call it hipocrisy [sic].

    ReplyDelete
  31. RHOLOGY

    "Anonymous,

    Please, my assertion has been substantiated NUMEROUS times on Dr White's own blog.
    Before you accuse me of slander, go listen to the debates I cited (I told you specifically the Stravinskas one). You didn't, so how would you even know whether this is slander or not?"

    Sorry for getting carried away, I was specifically referring to the comment on the BVM and the Trinity in terms of having the same biblical evidence, I still think you may have this bit wrong...But you are right I havent listened to all the debates, so I am the hypocrite and the slanderer...sincere apologies.

    ReplyDelete
  32. Dang. That was far more gracious than 99% of most anonymous commenters around here. Apology accepted, and w/ gratitude.

    ReplyDelete
  33. ...and by "99% of most" I meant "99%". Typed too fast.

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  34. It's a nice parody.

    As for the ad hominem issues, "those who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones," is a fair response to stone-throwing.

    When hateful RC's accuse protestants of lacking charity, or college students accuse professors of lack of scholarship, turnabout is fair play, even though we should generally eschew going personal.

    -Turretinfan

    ReplyDelete
  35. Here's the real rankings for *philosophy* depts in the English-speaking world--the one that actual philosophers in the profession swear by. (You have to scroll UP--way UP--number 2, to be precise, to find Rutgers.)

    http://www.philosophicalgourmet.com/overall.asp

    ReplyDelete
  36. Actually, those are only for graduate programs. Sorry

    ReplyDelete
  37. "Actually, those are only for graduate programs. Sorry"

    And even if the list applied to undergraduate that doesn't mean Apolonio has learned much of anything in the way of discerning Godly truth, or that he's a competent philosopher (let alone a credible critic of White).

    ReplyDelete
  38. Right, and Apolonio is a graduate student in philosophy. No?

    But I agree that he seems to have a rather high view of himself, and academia generally.

    ReplyDelete
  39. I was under the impression that he was an undergrad, but not sure now that you mention it. He's 22, I've read, so I assumed he was an undergrad.

    Oh, and I agree.

    ReplyDelete
  40. I am not impressed with Apolonio. He has not demonstrated any aptitude, thus far, to deal in matters of philosophy, apologetics, or good Bible study. Maybe I am missing something, I don't know. His own article failed to impress me for a number of reasons. First of all, I have watched or listed now to to over a dozen debates that James Whtie has been involved in. To say he is not fluent in the Church Fathers is unfounded and ignorant. I have heard him cite and expound n well over a dozen Church Fathers. He is fluent with not only Athanasius, but Origen, Ignatius, Irenaeus, Cyril of Alexandria, and so on. Those are only a couple of examples.

    What bothers me more is the reference to "scholars" who deal with the apostle Paul. The only reputable one, and by reputable, I mean Biblical, whom Apolonio references is Carson, and I hope he means D.A. Carson. I could be wrong on that. Otherwise, E.P. Sanders, James D.G. Dunn, and N.T. Wright would not qualify as Biblical in the area of the Apostle Paul. They have redifined the Biblical meaning of justification, and put it in a context not verifiable by the texts in question. The only reputable scholar mentioned by Apolonio, D.A.Carson successfully refuted these men in a two volume work entitled "Second Temple Judaism and Variable Nominism." Not to mention Cornelis P Venema, and the faculty of Westminster's work, "Justified in Christ," ed by Scott Oliphint.

    Furthermore, Apolonio states that he has learned to read actual scholars who "actually spent a lot of their life studying the Father's Scripture, etc..." Question for Apolonio, how much time do you spend not reading actual "scholars" and diggin into the text of Scripture. If you truly feel that James White has violated Scripture in these matters, you should be more concerend with pointing to the Scriptures to show him the error of his ways and call him to repent. This, I have a hard time believing, you will be able to do.

    One note on the ad hominem comments from James to Apolonio. Ad hominem in this instance is not a fallacy, as pointed out earlier. It is simply a call to the validity of Apolonio's arguments bsaed on the education and experience of Apolonio, which has yet to be proven. If Apolonio will respond to some of his commentors here, whcih he has yet to do, and prove his expertise, then perhaps that argument from James will be invalid. The burned of proof is on Apolonio.

    Finally, Apolonio, you cherish philosophy and traditions of men. I cherish Christ and His Philosophy. Colossians 2:8: "See to it that no one takes you captive through philosophy and empty deception, according to the tradition of men, according to the elementary principles of the world, rather than according to Christ."

    Apolonio, repent, ask forgiveness, turn form the philosophy of men and belief on Christ and Him crucified.

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  41. I apologze for all of my typos in the previous post. I get to typing fast and make errors. They are noted and accounted for. Sorry:)

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  42. Joseph said:
    ---
    In the university where I attend I have NEVER come across someone from a "Bible College" who could hack it.
    ---
    Peter said:
    Of course this doesn't provide very much information at all for us to be able to know what you mean by this statement.
    ---
    I respond:
    The implication is clear in that I am referring to them academically. As I will show later on, you seem to have continuing problems with making proper inferences from statements.
    ---
    Peter said:
    Secondly, you commit a fallacy when you assume that because you have never met such an individual said individual must not exist.
    ---
    I respond:
    Where did I say that "said individual must not exist?" I didn't say that. What I stated was that in MY experience, I have never met one who could. I did not conclude from this that they do not exist. You have erroneously inferred this from what I wrote.

    Allow me to give you an example of a logical fallacy:

    Fact: Baptists have the highest rates of obesity (Perdue University study http://www.purdue.edu/UNS/html4ever/2006/060824.Ferraro.obesity.html).

    Fact: Peter Pike is piggishly fat (as evidenced in his photo).

    Conclusion: Peter Pike is a Baptist.

    Well, not so fast. This is erroneous because not all fat people are Baptists; therefore, even though Peter is fat it does not follow that Peter is also a Baptist.
    ---
    Peter said:
    Third, what is meant by "hack it"?
    Depending on what you mean there, it is quite possible that the reason "Bible College" students don't "hack it" is because the "Bible College" students are right and YOU are wrong.
    ---
    I respond:
    Again, "bible college" students in my experience do not hack it academically when challenged outside those incestuous institutions. This has been my experience, and as I have stated I hope that there are some who can.
    ---
    Joseph said:

    I find it interesting that White&Co. scream foul at every ad hominem used against them, yet at the same time they conveniently turn a blind eye to their own use of ad hominems (Apolonio is 22, his estimation of himself is so and so..etc.) because they never dp that.
    ---
    Peter said:
    A) Given the huge amount of ad hominem written against James White, it is physically impossible for him to "scream foul" at every one of them.

    B) Even if it is hypocritical, it wouldn't change the fact that the original charges are still ad hominem.

    C) Not all ad hominem is fallacious ad hominem either. Most of it is, yes; but most is not "all."
    ---
    I respond:
    In the case of questioning someone's age instead of their argument is fallacious.

    Apolonio is only 22, folks that young are___, what does he know?

    Peter Pike is fat, fat people are not very good at making prudent decisions; hence Peter Pike's decision to be a Protestant is unreliable.

    See where I am going here? What does Apolonio's age have to do with his argument other than the fact that White&Co. enjoy using red herrings?
    ---
    Peter said:
    D) Shall we judge you by your same standard here? You are attacking "Bible College" students, not on the basis of their arguments, but on the basis of their being "Bible College" students.
    ---
    I respond:
    Correction Peter, I attacked those "bible college" students who I know. You can't argue against my personal experience unless you know that I have lied about my personal experience...which you do not. You could argue against a generalization, but I haven't made one. You are in error here.
    ---
    Peter said:
    You are not attacking White's arguments, you are attacking him personally here. There is a term for this (well, actually there are several), we will call it hipocrisy [sic].
    ---
    I respond:
    The only things I have mentioned about White&Co. is that:
    a) He does not have a real doctorate degree (Fact! His "degree" is from an unaccredited school which is entirely worthless outside of those academically incestuous "bible colleges").
    b) White&Co. also use ad hominems, and to which they deny doing so.

    Why doesn't White ever address my emails to him regarding the ancient liturgies which clearly show that the early church both practiced and believed in the sacrifice of the Mass?

    Joseph Lilac

    ReplyDelete
  43. sorry about the dead thread post but I couldn't resist. regarding Joseph Lilac's "Why doesn't White ever address my emails to him regarding the ancient liturgies which clearly show that the early church both practiced and believed in the sacrifice of the Mass?"
    I am triply qualified to posit an answer because I am 1)fat 2)named Wayne 3)I am a graduate of the undergrad section of a Baptist Seminary 4) My theology was Reformed Baptist like White 5)I recently became Catholic 6)and I can't count but the qualifiers needed some redundancy.
    Anyway, since nobody else answered, here goes: the early baptist churches didn't have or need a liturgy, because they had the scriptures and studied those ;)

    LOL (the catholic wayne)

    ReplyDelete
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