Saturday, November 04, 2006

What if the tooth-fairy really exists?

The latest profundities of John Loftus:
http://debunkingchristianity.blogspot.com/2006/11/what-if-allah-exists.html

“Let's say Allah exists.”

Let’s say he doesn’t.

“Since no one can be absolutely sure, this is a possibility, correct?”

Incorrect.

“The Muslim God could exist and the Koran could be his word.”

No, the Koran could not be his word since Islam is a Christian heresy. Muhammad appeals to the Bible to attest his own prophetic claims.

But since the Bible contradicts the Koran, Muhammad is a false prophet by his very own yardstick.

“As an atheist I admit this possibility.”

One more strike against atheism.

“So I suspect that Christians who are not absolutely blinded by their faith and upbringing would agree with me here.”

Far from being blind faith, this is a matter of elementary logic.

“So with that possibility…”

Predicated on a false premise.

“…let's say you die and you stand before Allah's judgment and he sends you to hell. Christian, what do you say in response? You say ‘I didn't know.’ ‘I thought Christianity was true.’ Then the Muslim God simply says, ‘ignorance is no excuse, I gave you many clues.’ ‘I even spoke through the atheist John W. Loftus when he suggested this possibility one day on his Blog." ;-) "Now off you go into hell's eternal flames."

Excepting for the fact that the only clues we find in the Koran are clues of charlatanry and self-delusion.

“Think of the shock of it all! You would be completely and utterly in shock, wouldn't you?”

Since John Loftus doesn’t believe in the afterlife, he regards the dead as pretty shockproof.

“And this is exactly what you believe that Muslims and atheists, Jews and Deists will face on the day of judgment with YOUR Christian God?”

Sounds good to me.

“Hogwash.”

Ah, yes, the old argumentum ad hogwashum.

“Absolute hogwash.”

It’s even more irrefutable when he adds the adjective, don’t you think?

“I haven't got the words to express my disgust with this God of yours.”

That’s what happens when your infidelity is sentimental rather than rational.

“ And I am dumbfounded why anyone would believe this. I am even more dumbfounded that I believed it for far too long.”

Well, that inspires a lot of confidence in his powers of reasoning, does it not?

“Wake up.”

So this post isn’t for real. It’s all a bad dream. That would go a long way towards explaining the caliber of reasoning.

“No intelligent Being would demand that we must believe the right things about him in order to gain entrance into heaven, even if he did exist.”

Notice how this dogmatic assertion directly contradicts his previous claim: ““As an atheist I admit this possibility, so I suspect that Christians who are not absolutely blinded by their faith and upbringing would agree with me here.”

Evidently, Loftus is absolutely blinded by his infidelity.

“This God of yours parallels the barbaric ‘thought police’ in ancient civilizations.”

Actually, modern-day liberals are the “thought police.” Look at their speech codes on college campus. Look at their ever-enlarging list of hate crimes. Look at the way they stifle dissent on evolution. Or their mandatory “diversity training.”

No one’s more censorious or intolerant than a liberal.

“This is a democratic age we're living in.”

Given the fact that Loftus is a cultural relativist, the appeal to social conditioning cuts both ways. Why is a democratic age morally superior to a “barbaric” age?

“We all have various opinions on everything, and these opinions are sincerely held ones.”

Notice how he substitutes democracy for truth.

And observe his selective tolerance. What about sincerely held Christian beliefs?

“We are tolerant of diverse opinions because educated people realize we will have intelligent differences. But to send people to hell because they disagreed, well, that's barbaric, plain and simple.”

1.Assuming that it’s barbaric, what’s wrong with barbarism?

Does Loftus believe in moral absolutes? If so, where’s the argument? If not, drop the moralistic bravado.

2.Actually, what we believe about someone else says a lot about ourselves. If a skinhead idolizes Adolf Hitler, that says a lot about the skinhead. If a teenager idolizes a gangsta rapper, that says a lot about the teenager.

If you’re a Maoist or a Nazi or a Kamikaze, that says a lot about the sort of person you are. About your value-system.

3.We have social obligations. Moral and intellectual duties to other people. If a man saves my life or does me a big favor, I’m in his debt.

Suppose I have a famous father. Suppose he’s a devoted father.

And suppose, after he’s dead, I write a sensational biography full of libelous accusations just to cash in on my father’s fame.

That would be a supreme act of betrayal.

There are people who deserve our love and loyalty. People who merit our respect and gratitude—beginning with God.

But, of course, that’s something Loftus wouldn’t understand because he treats other people as disposable means to achieve his selfish ends.

10 comments:

  1. The Red Rocker11/04/2006 11:09 AM

    “I haven't got the words to express my disgust with this God of yours.”

    Again, why does he care? He's only got a short time to enjoy his life before the big nothingness. Or maybe he believes in reincarnation or something like that. If that's allowed for an atheist.

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  2. If you equate the tooth-fairy with a God that more than one billion people on the planet believe in, then I have four suggestions for you:

    One) Interact with them and see how intense their belief is, how intelligent it is, and how sincere it is. Whatever reasons you have for them not agreeing with you like "stupidity," "ignorance," "hard heartedness," or "divine decree," they think the same things about why you don't believe in Allah.

    Two) You think you can provide an "internal critique" of their beliefs, but they think they can provide one of yours, like a trinitarian God with three separate but unified centers of consciousness, the absurdity of a substitutionary atonement, and the absurdities of an incarnate God, etc. Of course, I share their critique of your Christian views.

    Three) You probably believe they are Muslims because of when and where they were born, just like I do. How do you know that you don't also believe based upon when and where you were born? How do you really know? What were the circumstances that led you to Christianity? Did you at the time of your conversion have a properly informed faith? If not, and who does, then shouldn't you be suspicious of your own faith since you first gained your Christian presupposition before you could properly evaluate it? Remember, the presupposition you start out with will usuallybe the one you finish with, for it colors everything you see.

    Four) You may feel certain of your faith, but that's just a subjective feeling (no matter what you call it). Many other devout religious believers have that same exact feeling of certainty.

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  3. Yet another problem with Loftus is his statement "But to send people to hell because they disagreed, well, that's barbaric, plain and simple.” Christians don't send people to hell, John, God does. You are making the assumption that people are basically good, and how could God be such a homocidal maniac? When the question really is this: how could we be such God's-glory-killers by trying to be God ourselves? How dare we? Hell is not too hot for us. Notice the "us." We are not goodie-twoshoes, but rather beggars trying to tell other beggars where to find food. That is our mission. I hope and pray that you will see this, John. May God have mercy on your soul and convert you.

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  4. In his response in this thread, John Loftus is repeating objections that Steve has addressed before, including in previous responses to John in particular. I don't see anything in John's latest formulation of his arguments that would suggest that he's attempting to interact with what Steve has already said on these issues. Steve moved on to later stages of the argument a long time ago, and John is still at stage one and keeps repeating it over and over again.

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  5. John: numbers do not make a false belief right. For example, the bank where I work has a 'question of the day' on line. One day the question related to a book by James Fennimore Cooper. 80% of people chose 'Last of the Mohicans', that being the only book by that august author they'd heard of. 80% of those who answere the question got it wrong, myself included. That's the trouble with making a fetish of democracy: we can think that black becomes white just because 51% of people say so.

    A thing is false whether one person believes it or a hundred million if that thing is wrong. And you know that.

    We note again that Islam arose as a Christian heresy. Like Mormonism, it came to be an independent religion. Why? because it arose outside the bounds of the ability of either emperor or church to suppress it (while gnosticism remained within the bounds of the empire, and thus had those difficulties associated with Imperial control and Paulicianism , which was close enoughto the border to be suppressed), and thus could grow that way, as Mormonism could do in the situation of the American frontier.

    Now, Hinduism, et. al. are a different story, but that's for another day.

    Lastly, the question of where and when. This simply isn't good enough. People have 'crossed over' in situations where the culture was overwhelingly Islamic, suchb as Egypt, and even Iran. Now, Islam is astonishingly good when it comes to keeping their people, partly because in many Muslim countries religion and the civil power are very closely linked, but even so, even in closed countries, there are those who accept Christ.

    Of course I, like most Christians, believe that such things as nominal believers exist. After all, I used to be one. But this is not all, neither is it enough. And, yes, our upbringing, environment and experience affect our choices and beliefs. However, I could argue that this is part of the providence of God. Or I could observe that if that was all, I should, like most of my friends, be either a liberal or a practical atheist. Certainly I should not be about to be received into membership at an independent Evangelical Church, and who'd 've thought that the boy who sat under liberal teaching for so long should believe in the anointing of the Holy Spirit.

    If my belief was based solely on when and where I was born, then I would be a secularist, just as other Christians would be Muslims or Hindus, or atheists. And, by the way, I extend the same courtesy to Muslims. In the city where I was born, I'm reliably informed that most of the congregation at the local Mosque are British converts.

    We are influenced by our culture, that I agree, but that is not all. Men can be changed, men can see the depravity of the world they live, be awakened to flee from the wrath to come. Or they may only partially awake and take a false path.

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  6. Lane, God have mercy on your soul and convert you.

    Well then, if he does then I'm already doing my depraved part--the only part sinners know how to do, right. I will kick and scream against it. As he did to you, he'll have to grab me by the scruff of the neck and turn me toward him, 'cause by myself I will refuse his call.

    So you're special and I'm not, eh, because in your theology he grabbed you but he didn't grab me. I guess God hates me. Shame on him.

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  7. John, stop pouting and grow up. I trust you don't mean it, but too often you come across as infantile and drenched in self-pity.

    Now, I know you're a clever man, so please, do yourself justice. You don't deserve to treat yourself this way, you shouldn't be setting yourself up for more ridicule. I could hear the pout in that last post of yours.

    Please do a Kerry and say you were trying to make a lame joke. Or something. Make an intellectual case, but whatever you do, let's not come down to emoting. I recall being chastised for doing that on your site some months ago.

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  8. Let's make this plain and simple:

    If there's no heaven to gain, no hell to pay, and you can get away with it here on earth, then the question shouldn't be: why do it?, but rather, why not do it?

    As the atheist, Sartre, put it, "We are bubbles floating on a sea of nothingness." How do you get morality from that?

    John Loftus said, "You probably believe they are Muslims because of when and where they were born, just like I do."

    Uh, no John, we don't. This takes us back to presuppositionalism. You assume that most people come into a religion by an *accident* of bith. [Thus, you posit a chance universe.] We Reformed Christians, on the other hand, posit a universe controlled by the providence of God. We believe that God, in his providence, has placed every man in their place for a reason.

    Thus, by saying that everyone believes what they believe because they were born into it, you are simply begging the question in favor of your worldview.

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  9. To John, I would say this: there is absolutely nothing in me that is special that God would choose me. I thought I had made that clear. What you need to do is to read C.S. Lewis' autobiography _Surprised by Joy_. He was an atheist who was siezed by the scruff of the neck kicking and screaming into the kingdom of God. This is especially evident in the final chapter entitled "Checkmate," which all atheists should read. Don't think it cannot happen. God's grace is amazing.

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