Wednesday, October 11, 2006

"My Life as a Former Sex Slave": Why He Changed His Mind

John W. Loftus said:

“Steve, you have just proved that you are not just a biased reviewer of my book. You are a dishonest one too. You never quoted what I said about this, did you?”

I didn’t quote what he said about what?

“You only quoted what you wanted to quote, and that's dishonest.”

Oh, so I did quote him after all.

Notice that he doesn’t document the charge of dishonesty. Is he suggesting that I quoting him out of context?

If so, the customary way of showing that someone quoted you out of context is to quote a larger sample of the surrounding text to demonstrate that when the original quote in put in context, it casts the whole thing in a different light.

Now, Loftus wrote this book. I assume he wrote it on computer. So it would be very easy for him to copy/paste whatever addition material he thinks would document his charge.

“People who have read my book know differently.”

All three of them, you mean?

“Tell me this, does your faith require that you be dishonest with those who object to your faith? If that's the case, then you are is a desperation mode.”

Once again, why doesn’t he back up his claim by actually illustrating how I supposedly quoted him out of context?

“Three other things here: 1) You cannot confess your own shortcomings because if you did then it would undercut your own claim to have been cleansed by the blood of Jesus.”

This reflects the very defective state of Loftus’ theological understanding. What comes through in his account is not contrition, but angry finger-pointing.

“Tell us this Steve, in the interest of full disclosure, do you look at pornography on the net...do you lie...do you yell at or hit your wife..do you tithe...do you pray like you think you should...do you pay your taxes....have you ever been divorced...are you secretly gay....do you hate someone...do you desire another woman.... 2)”

In the interest of full disclosure, I’ll admit that, unlike Loftus, I’ve never been a sex slave to a scheming Dominatrix.

I guess I’ve led a very boring life.

As to whether I have a secret sex life, well…if I told him about it, then it wouldn’t be a secret anymore—which would spoil all the fun.

So I’ll have to keep my secret sex life secret—at least until I write up my own deconversion story, at which point I’ll spice it up with juicy details about my Lotharian exploits with naughty, mob girls like Jayne Mansfield (I was very precocious) to sell more copy.

“I am free from the guilt trip that Christians throw on other people.”

If he’s guilt-free, then why does he sound so defensive?

“3) Such a review as yours does not undercut my case. It's an ad hominem of the worst sort.”

Actually, this isn’t ad hominem, but ex hominem. Not “to the man,” but “from the man.”

It’s not as if I hired a P.I. to dig through his garbage.

No, Loftus volunteers this information. Puts it in the public domain.

It’s very revealing that when I quote his own words back to him, he accuses me of launching an ad hominem attack of the worst sort.

Consider the source. If he thinks that quoting directly from his own book is some form of character assassination, then this could only be a form of self-inflicted character assassination—which is far more damning that any charge I could level.

“Nice going! Wow! That says it all.”

I agree.

Since, however, he accuses me of not quoting what he said about “this,” whatever “this” is, here’s a much fuller quote from the infamous “Linda” episode:

***QUOTE***

I was the founding president of Operation Shelter, (now called Turning Point) in Angola, Indiana. It was an organization that seeks to give temporary shelter to people in need, I worked day after day with the executive director, whose’ name was Linda. She practically idolized me. She did everything I said to do, and would call me daily to help her deal with various situations that came up from the running of the Shelter, along with her personal problems. What man doesn’t want to be worshipped? I guess I did. I was having problems with my own relationship with my wife at the time, and Linda made herself available. I succumbed and had an affair with her.

There’s so much more I’d like to say bout this, but few people would believe me. I believe she was a con artist, and she conned me. As a former stripper she had it inn for preachers, and she took out her wrath on me. Perhaps because I was a moral crusader in town and stood against abortion and X-rated video rentals, she chose to humiliate me. Suffice to say there are some women out there who, akin to Potipher’s wife in the Bible, find it challenging to see if they can sack a minister, and she did.

How many sermons have you heard about Joseph and Potipher’s wife where the preacher asked something like this: “how many men would have been able to overcome this temptation?” And they conclude with, “I fear not many men could’ve over come this.” Preachers say this to bolster our confidence in the amount of faith Joseph had, and his strength of will. But when someone like me actually does succumb to such a temptation, these same preachers are quick to condemn me. Although, I’m not proud of this.

Ethicist Richard Taylor wrote a book on Having Love Affairs (Buffalo: Prometheus Books, 1982) and he discusses whose fault it is when there is an affair. I am not excusing myself here, but as he explains, there may be more to it. “Though a wife may be ever so dutiful, faultless, and virtuous in every skill required for the making of a home, if she lacks passion, then in a very real sense she already is without a husband, or he, at least, is without a wife…What is to be stressed is that the first infidelity may or may not have been committed by the one who is having an affair. The first and ultimate infidelity is to withhold the love that was promised, and which was originally represented as the reason for marriage to begin with.”

But there is more. After a few months I decided I could no longer reconcile the affair with my faith or my family life—at this time I was not ministering at the church. So I told Linda that it was over. Well, William Congreve is right, “Hell has no fury like a woman scorned.” She went off in a rampage and told the board of directors at the Shelter that I had raped her. She went to the prosecutor with my former associate minister and tried to press charges against me, too. They were all lies. No charges were brought against me, thankfully.

I thought everyone had heard of her accusations and that most people believed her. I received a phone call from someone who threatened my life, and it sounded like he would kill me, too. One man whom I had a great amount of respect for, had heard her accusations. I said to him, “you don’t believer he do you?” He replied, “John, I don’t know what to believe.” This really hurt. I did some research on her and found that she was married eight times; although she told me she was only married twice. I talked with most of these former husbands and I learned she was quite the consummate liar. I found out some more negative stuff too, which led me to the conclusion that she had duped me about many things. But I was supposed to be smarter than that, or so I thought. How could this happen to me? How could I let her come me like that? How could I have an affair with her? How could I allow my reputation be sullied by claims that I had raped her? Why did God test me by allowing her to come into my life when she did? All of this devastated me. I do thank my ex-wife, Kathy, for forgiving me and for standing by me during this period in my life. She is a wonderful woman.

Why I Rejected Christianity, 22-23.

***END-QUOTE***

So is that what “this” is referring to?

Okay, then—let’s take stock. Does this extended quote present Loftus in a more favorable light? What does this quote include that I left out in my original quote?

In this quote:

1.Loftus blames his ex-wife for the affair. Borrowing a page from Richard Taylor—who is writing, not coincidentally, for an atheistic publishing house—he insinuates that his ex-wife was really the first one to cheat on him since she was a frigid woman, which is equivalent to infidelity.

2.Loftus blames his fellow ministers for condemning the affair.

3.Loftus blames Linda for seducing him. Yes, Linda—that sinister reincarnation of Jezebel, Delilah, Messalina, Thais, Mata Hari, Barbara Stanwyck, &c., &c.

BTW, am I the only one to detect a deep-seated strain of misogyny in Loftus’ description?

4.Loftus mitigates the affair on the grounds that when he had his fling with her, he thought she’d only been married twice before.

5.Loftus talks about how she accused him of rape, and how most of the folks he knew found her side of the story more credible than his.

6.In both the original quote and the extended quote, Loftus says there’s “so much more” he’d like to say, but “few people” would believe him.

Gee, imagine that.

7.In both quotations he also blames God for his affair.

I’ll leave it to the reader to decide if this additional material paints him in a more favorable light.

Remember, all this sordid stuff is coming straight from his own book, to justify his deconversion.

And, indeed, the real reason for apostasy is often emotional or sexual.

47 comments:

  1. hostus twinkius10/11/2006 11:30 AM

    Actually Steve, I think the extended quote made him look more like a rat. He acted a lot like Adam, blaming his sin on Eve. I guess federal headship makes a lot more sense to him now. He demands respect, and loves the praises of men, but treats his wife like dirt and had no regard for his children.....nice. I'm glad you cleared up the context, that sure helped...

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  2. So, the reasons for his deconversion are emotional and not intellectual, hmmm, go figure. John deconverted and then went looking for "arguments" which made him feel "good" (more emotionalism) about what he did.

    Isn't that what the Bible says, though? Thier conscious is always excusing them. John denies moral realism to excuse his affair and overall shoddy job of being a husband.

    I mean, if they guy's having problems with his wife, why's he out building shelters fro the homeless? I mean, that's good -n- all, but I thought he was a follower of the Bible? The Bible says that if you can't keep your own house in order, John, then don't bother building other people houses! The Bible calls you to man-up and leave your ministry. Was the praise of man for how good of a minister and homeless shelter builder too important for you?

    It's all the more clear now, thanks for posting that Steve.

    John, I'm truly sorry for you. it's obvious that you are lost. I wish you could see yourself in the thrid person, it's really a sad sight to see.

    John, you need to repent, get back with your wife (if she'll have you), take care of your kids, and humble yourself before God. You know that's the right thing to do, don't you. You know it...

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  3. Anonymous,
    It's too late he already remarried. Not sure how his new wife could be sure that he won't ever cheat on her though.

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  4. Huh.

    Well, I remember him telling Paul Manata that since Paul had a violent past he'd beat his wife in the future. He said psychologists have shown that if you do it in the past you'll do it again.

    So, I guess that means that according to John Loftus, he'll cheat on his new wife.

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  5. nancy kerrigan10/11/2006 12:23 PM

    I’ll leave it to the reader to decide if this additional material paints him in a more favorable light.

    Answer: No.

    PS: I'm no Christian.

    PSS: I saw Tonya Harding's name on your board the other day, and I decided to try to find her on here again...

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  6. Tonya Harding10/11/2006 1:04 PM

    Look Nancy, I didn't do it. It was my loser ex-husband, so stop hounding me, all right?

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  7. Thanks for the info. I suspected that something of this sort was at the back of John Loftus' apostasy. And yes, it was difficult, clearly.

    John, you thought you were too smart to fall for this sort of thing. Well, in that case I've got news for you. No-one is too smart to fall into adultery. I know a chap with more qualifications that you could name. A man who is at the top of his profession. Divorced from his first wife due to repeatd adultery. Why?

    Because he couldn't help it.

    And I do not condemn him. He has conessed his sins, and if we confess our sins, God is faithful and just to forgive us our sins. But we must not hold onto them, we must not re-define them as something other than sin, like mistakes.

    And that goes for the reactions of people to the rape allegation. However, coming from a profession where that sort of allegation can break a person, I can tell John that they have to be taken seriously by law.

    But I would say in general, that anyone who marries an adulterer, or marries one with whom they themself committed adultery cannot be sure their marriage will not be ended by adultery.

    And that is not supposed to be a dig at Loftus.

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  8. It's interesting that John accuses Steve of dishonesty because he didn't include the whole sordid story in his first post. Shouldn't you be an honest person if you make such an accusation and have it mean anything? Was John honest with his wife? his church? the God he professed to serve? And Steve's dishonest because he didn't quote the whole filthy incident. There's moral relativism for ya...

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  9. I said, "There’s so much more I’d like to say about this, but few people would believe me. I believe she was a con artist, and she conned me."

    Have you ever seen the programs on TV where some guy or gal marries a person just to kill them and take their money? While Linda wasn't that bad, she was of the same type personality. I don't expect you to understand. It hasn't ever happened to you. But it absolutely devestated me to the core. I see no Christian compassion here at all, as expected, and as I experienced in my own Christian community. You just don't understand. I'm just guilty. That's all you care about.

    I said, "I am not excusing myself here, but...there may be more to it."

    I'm not excusing myself here. But I dare say that the temptation was just beyond me. That you won't understand either. If a pretty woman wants you and is clever, very clever, she could probably get you. That you won't understand either. I'm just guilty, and I do bear the blame.

    There are a lot of books available where people confess to having sex with Elvis and the like. I was just honest here in revealing what changed my life.

    Now think about this. I knew people would object to this incident but I included it anyway. Why? Because I'm dishonest? No! Because I was trying to be as honest as I could. My book is a sincere attempt to explain why I changed. You cannot dispute that anymore, since I write about the good the bad and the ugly.

    Besides, I also said this: While the things I have just written might explain to some degree why my thinking has changed, I want to stress the fact that my thinking has indeed changed. You cannot explain away my present doubts by pointing to bad experiences in my life. They may be what provoked my thinking, but they don’t explain my thoughts. I am an atheist regardless of the experiences that led up to my present way of thinking. In talking with me you will have to deal with my arguments. Otherwise, I could point to your past experiences and explain your beliefs away as a product of what you have experienced too! People believe and doubt for a wide variety of reasons, and that’s all there is to it.

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  10. Thanks for some level of understanding hiraeth.

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  11. I would like to chime in on this recurring theme of Loftus' about his request for compassion if not outright forgiveness. Where would he draw the line between accountability and forgiveness? What, in his view, would have been the appropriate response by his Christian community? I think I remember him mentioning something about his wife forgiving him perhaps he could flesh that out for us.

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  12. This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

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  13. Per the end of John's quote above, that is a text book example of self-deception. Your heart was there first and your brain followed close behind. As far as Christian compassion, I would have great compassion toward you John if you were repentant. If you held onto Christ by faith and sought forgiveness with God, and restoration to the fellowship of the saints. But you didn't do that, you started ridiculing the faith, blaming Christians for their behavior towards you, and you forsook your Savior and trampled under your foot the blood of the covenant. You should have listened to those sermons on Joseph a little more intently and ran away like he did. He obeyed the commandment to flea youthful lusts. Instead you started questioning the truth of the gospel, rationalized your sin, destroyed your family, damaged your children, hurt your church, and have now made it your life's mission to destroy the faith of others. So, you want compassion?

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  14. On a practical note there's an excellent book by Shirley Glass called "Not Just Friends" which shows how you can slip towards an affair and how to see the warning sings when you're headed in that direction. There's also a section on healing a betrayed relationship.
    I guess Loftus is not going to answer my questions likely because he thinks we are incapable of "understanding" him. Actually we understand where you're coming from very well. It's too bad he confuses reasoning with rationalization too often.

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  15. hostus twinkius10/11/2006 2:11 PM

    Hey, adultery, betrayal, hypocrisy....no problem in John's atheistic worldview, right? You see, rejection of the God of the Bible and plunging into spiritual and moral darkness go hand in hand....root, tree, fruit

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  16. Listen up. You treat me as if I'm not a person. You treat me as if I'm an alien or something. YOU tell me this, what do YOU do whenever you're caught in sin? That's exactly what I did. And there are mitigating factors to all sins too. But that you will refuse to acknowledge since it's me.

    I'm the one who signs my real name to what I write. I'm the one revealing myself here, in all sincerity in the honest attempt to explain myself. Most of you are simply gutless pricks.

    Your turn. Tell me the things you've done wrong in your life. Go ahead. Post it with your real name too. Then let me tear you a new asshole.

    Experiences shape our thinking. This experience I had helped to shape my thinking. I failed where Joseph succeeded. Hooray for him! Now may your God test YOU like that while I watch on with distain and contempt.

    YOU are the reason I will never return to the sludge pit of the Christian faith. The more you treat me with disrespect the more it confirms what a bankrupt way of life Christianity really is.

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  17. Nathan Burbalinski10/11/2006 2:57 PM

    "The more you treat me with disrespect the more it confirms what a bankrupt way of life Christianity really is."

    Christianity is a bankrupt way of life because an unrepentant adulterer apostate doesn't receive the respect he thinks he deserves? Did I miss something?

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  18. Hiraeth,

    But I would say in general, that anyone who marries an adulterer, or marries one with whom they themself committed adultery cannot be sure their marriage will not be ended by adultery.

    Who can be sure of such things? Trust is trust -- and it's integral to any relationship.

    Albert, Hostus & Nathan,

    I would not fear laying my own "sins" on the table next to yours, any day. Don't be so silly as to think that all non-Christians are non-virtuous. Ever hear of the Greek philosophers?

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  19. Listen up y'all. You treat me as if I'm not a person. I have feelings you know. You treat me as if I'm an alien or something. YOU tell me this, what do YOU do whenever you're caught in a scandalous public sin? That's exactly what I did, a real Jimmy Swaggert cry fest. And there are mitigating factors to all sins too, like having the opportunity. But that you will refuse to acknowledge since it's me.

    I'm the one who signs my real name to what I write. I'm the one revealing myself here, in all sincerity in the honest attempt to explain my dishonesty. Most of you are simply gutless *&%%$@ who tell the truth but don't sign your real names.

    Your turn. Tell me the things you've done wrong in your life. Go ahead. Post it with your real name too. Then let me tear you a new @#%&**.

    Experiences shape our thinking. This experience I had helped to shape my thinking. I failed where Joseph succeeded. Hooray for him, he must have really been a Christian! Now may your God test YOU like that while I watch on with disdain and contempt.

    YOU are the reason I will never return to the sludge pit of the Christian faith. The more you treat me with disrespect the more it confirms what a bankrupt way of life Christianity really is. You #$@@! sassa frassin $^%*#*& rotten **** @#$###!!

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  20. Godless said "Don't be so silly as to think that all non-Christians are non-virtuous".

    I don't think anyone here was even insinuating that. The focus here is on John W. Loftus not Gandhi.

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  21. I wonder what names Loftus called the "heathens" back when he was a minister?

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  22. Hey Mr. Loftus... dude, you're a two-timing pervert who probably prances around in a leather thong wearing that ridiculous looking cowboy hat while screaming "yeehaw!" I guess Sharon has a potential partner now. LOL, this is too much. Now, I really got to get that book!

    Loftus, honestly, you're a girlie-man. You screwed up. And instead of putting full blame on yourself, you're blaming the other person? She didn't force you to go bareback buddy. I suppose the next time you murder someone in cold blood you'll blame the victim. And I thought homophobe Ed Babinski was bad. You're a ho and you got pimped (by a scandalous woman no less). And we all know in my neighborhood the hos would lie for a buck. You're telling everybody what happened but you lied about the moral responsibility.

    You think I'm being cold and insensitive toward you? Well, my "Loftus" logic tells me that that's your fault. If you wouldn't give me an excuse to show how much of a numbskull adulterer you are I wouldn't mention it.

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  23. hostus twinkius10/11/2006 4:36 PM

    Steve,

    This is admittedly somewhat off topic, but it appears that Daniel Morgan is no longer posting here because the T-Bloggers are "committed" to their position and therefore cannot have a "rational" discussion about non-Christian views. I think he learned this at one of those wonderful atheist pep rallies he travels all over the country for. In fact, there is a paper he posted at DC (about 20 pages) where presuppositionalism is "exposed". They even mention Paul Manata whoopin' Dan Barker's patootie (all right, Loftus' bad language is rubbing off on me) in their recent debate. Thought you and Paul might be interested....

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  24. Albert, my "Loftus" logic tells me that Loftus will divorce again.

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  25. JWL said "YOU are the reason I will never return to the sludge pit of the Christian faith."

    I guess I've been had. I thought the theology was the problem for John all along, but I guess it isn't :-)

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  26. Loftus wrote:
    ---
    I'm just guilty. That's all you care about.
    ---

    It'd be nice if it was something you cared about.

    When I read what you write, John, it reads to me as nothing more than excuses. The bottom line is that no one made you do what you did. That action came out of your heart.

    People make mistakes. This is true. Everyone sins. In fact, Scripture tells us if anyone says they do not sin they make God into a liar.

    But I happen to know of another person who committed adultery. When he was exposed, he didn't sit there and say, "She was naked and taking a bath in PUBLIC! I couldn't help myself! It's her fault!"

    No, he said:

    ---
    Have mercy on me, O God, according to your steadfast love; according to your abundant mercy blot out my transgressions. Wash me thoroughly from my iniquity, and cleanse me from my sin!

    For I know my transgressions, and my sin is ever before me. Against you, you only, have I sinned and done what is evil in your sight, so that you may be justified in your words and blameless in your judgment.

    Create in me a clean heart, O God, and renew a right spirit within me. Cast me not away from your presence, and take not your Holy Spirit from me. Restore to me the joy of your salvation, and uphold me with a willing spirit.

    Deliver me from bloodguiltiness, O God, O God of my salvation, and my tongue will sing aloud of your righteousness. Lord, open my lips, and my mouth will declare your praise. For you will not delight in sacrifice, or I would give it; you will not be pleased with a burnt offering.

    The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit; a broken and contrite heart, O God, you will not despise.

    (Excerpts from Psalm 51, ESV).
    ---

    There's a world of difference between what David did and what you did/are doing. David acknowledged his guilt, he admitted his errors, and he turned to God for forgiveness. He recognized that it was God he had sinned against, it was God's commands he had broken. He knew that only God could heal him for what he had done.

    You, on the other hand, turned your back on God. You blamed God for it. You cut yourself off from the Spirit rather than ask the Spirit to create a new heart within you.

    For such as you, God has another question:

    "Would you discredit my justice? Would you condemn me to justify yourself?" (Job 40:8).

    We already know your answer, John.

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  27. By the way, I'll also point out that David was considered a man after God's own heart. He's a man whom Christians look to for a source of spiritual inspiration.

    All you had to do to get that, John, was to repent. You decided not to. You decided to shift blame instead and to justify yourself at the expense of truth.

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  28. John,

    How do you want to be shown respect and compassion? Can you explain what that should like?

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  29. Listen, ads and lasses, whatever blasphemy Loftus may have been engaged in against Christianity, he is still a human being.

    The question is not whether a Christian can sin. The answer to that is yes. A Christian can even, like David, live in their sin for a season. But once that sin is revealed to them, whether it is a Nathan who reveals it, or the Holy Spirit, that Christian will repent in dust and ashes.

    On the rape allegation, John, that was wicked and wrong. But when someone cries 'rape!' or 'paedophile!' that cannot be ignored. And I write from experience. It's ghastly, I know, and I was lucky.

    I in no way agree with John Loftus' atheism, and I believe that in denying the God who bought him, John is in danger of hell-fire.

    But that said, he is a human being. Let us show that we, who were bought with a price, are truly the children of grace and not of law. By all means attack his arguments. But mark the man?

    John sinned in committing adultery. But did not the Saviour say that whoever looks upon a woman to lust after her in his heart has already committed adultery. I know that I am all unrighteousness and I loathe that. But I also know that one day I shall know no sin, and uninterrupted communion with my father in heaven.

    Godless, the point I made can be backed up by statistics. A person who has divorced once because of adultery they committed is more likely to be divorced again. I once held my tongue on this in the presence of a man married to a woman he'd cheated with when married to his first wife. Less than a year later, she left him for another man.

    That, like the first divorce was a tragedy, and I had to spend a great deal of time helping that gentleman to rebuild his life. He had sinned greatly, but my advice was 'go and sin no more'. And that is my advice to John, not in a harsh way, but with tears.

    John, I would not see you tread the road that leads only to destruction. And I suspect neither would any other.

    John, do not blame your wife. Do not even imply blame on your wife. That also is low, and can only cause hurt. I write as one who knows, as one enabled, by the grace of God, to forgive and love the sinner.

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  30. WarrenL, by trying to understand, although they can't do it, or they refuse to do it. They've suggested I repent and ask forgiveness as if I didn't do this. I did everything that they would do as the Christian I was. But the seeds of doubt were sown and took root. I could only wish that in their lifetimes they meet a Linda, but since it's such a rare thing they won't, which means they will never understand, which doubles the pain. In many ways I don't care if they do understand though. But a few do.

    I'm done here. Now back to the reasons why I reject Christianity.

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  31. Oh, and Albert. I have long said that it was the behaviour of Christians towards Mr. Loftus that was the main reason for DC.

    It is nice to know when one is right.

    Still, 'let he who stands take heed lest he fall.' As Christians, we should 'go forth, our own great weakness feeling, and needing more each day' God's Grace to know.

    I know what it is like to fall. And I know what it is like to be restored by God. And it was all my fault.

    If it was up to me, I would be filling a grave right now. But it is not I.

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  32. And, John, I never wish my trials on anyone else. I would never want to see you fired from your job and barred from doing it again, thrown down into the dust and forsaken.

    You were gutted by that affair, according to your memoir. Why would you wish that on another?

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  33. John,

    I am sorry this happened to you. I really am. For you it may have been a beautiful woman. For every Christian it is nevertheless some issue.

    We do sometimes shoot our mouths off before thinking things through, however, try look a little deeper. Perhaps what you have here is not unlike someone shouting at another to get out of the road for fear of them being run over. It may come across as harsh and unfeeling.

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  34. hiraeth, thank you very much.

    Only in the heat of frustration when people revile me because of something do I wish it on them so they can feel what it's like. It was simply devestating to me. I can't even begin to express it. Do I wish it on those who revile me here? Yes, or something similar. Then they will be less likely to harrass and berate someone like they have me. But I don't have to wish things on people like this. Time on earth will do it anyway. They will know the pain of something similar someday. You and I both know it. I do not wish upon self-righteous and smug people who think they know it all a blissful and completely happy life. For only when this world deals a blow to such self-righteousness will they be able to deal humanely with the rest of us.

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  35. Loftus said:
    ---
    They've suggested I repent and ask forgiveness as if I didn't do this.
    ---

    Repenting involves taking responsibility too, John. It doesn't mean you stand there and start listing off all the other people who caused you to do it; it means you say, "I personally did mess up and I have no one to blame but myself."

    If you really did repent, you would even now realize this is true; you would not be seeking out scapegoats.

    I do not doubt you said, "I'm sorry" many, many times, and I don't doubt that you felt bad about it; but saying words and feeling something isn't the same thing as repenting.

    I'm not saying this to belittle you; it's an attempt to show you where you went wrong.

    Sure, there are many people who are Christian-in-name-only who would condemn you even if you showed genuine repentance, but real believers have no problem at all accepting people who make genuine confessions. You know, the kind where you own up and don't excuse, the kind where you admit you can rely on nothing but the grace of God (like the rest of us) and don't seek to justify yourself by yourself. These are the marks of true repentance. These are the things that we each have to do for all our sins.

    Frankly, if you did that I would consider the whole issue of the affair completely irrelevant. Unfortunately, since you not only shift blame on that issue but are also now using it as a battering ram against the Christian faith (and thus are increasing your sin instead of repenting from it), you are keeping it relevant. And thus, we cannot "massage" your guilty conscious and say, "Gee, John, sorry it turned out that way; let's forget about it and pretend it never happened." No, we are required to saying, "John Loftus, what you did was evil when you did it, and what you are doing with it now is evil. You need to cease and repent for both."

    You might not like it; you might think we're "picking" on you.

    Then again, you might repent and be glad for it when you enter glory.

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  36. little debbie cakes10/11/2006 9:13 PM

    I think he learned this at one of those wonderful atheist pep rallies he travels all over the country for.

    I hear he's only traveled more than 10 miles one time to attend any sort of secular/freethought anything. That's what I hear.

    In fact, there is a paper he posted at DC (about 20 pages) where presuppositionalism is "exposed".

    Did he use that word?

    I thought it was just a "response".

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  37. hostus twinkius10/12/2006 11:19 AM

    Hi Little Debbie,

    We'll have to hook up at the next Snack Cake corporate meeting. With regard to the above, I stand corrected. I didn't realize Mr. Morgan never traveled more than 10 miles from his home for one of those pep rallies, and the paper was a "response". Very well....thank you

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  38. mr. fudge round10/12/2006 12:59 PM

    It seems that Mr. Morgan did indeed travel >10 miles to go to Buffalo for the CFI conference. It seems that this is the one and only "pep rally for godlessness" he's yet attended to be >10 miles away.

    This seems to be admitted from Little Debbie Cakes above:
    I hear he's only traveled more than 10 miles one time to attend any sort of secular/freethought anything.

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  39. hostus twinkius10/12/2006 2:21 PM

    Boy, you snack foods sure are picky. Be that as it may, apparently I stand corrected twice. He only had to travel more than 10 miles ONCE. I didn't realize they held so many of those things right in Florida....

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  40. Well this is the second post here in which an opponents sexual obscenity was quoted.

    Putting out literal pornography isn't right. I won't be coming back here for the same reason I wouldn't go into a strip club.

    You guys have obviously exposed yourself to evil too much, and are now accepting and tolerating what God said should never be mentioned.

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  41. That's very noble of you Lance, coming from a liar like you (aka Mr. Devries, ct)

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  42. Lance,

    Don't be such a weenie.

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  43. hostus twinkius10/13/2006 4:19 PM

    Lance says, "I won't be coming back here for the same reason I wouldn't go into a strip club."

    Yeah, that sounds about right. Good reasoning there...

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  44. literal pornography?

    I think the weenie meant "literary"?

    Also, how is it "seductive" and physically appealing to allow obscene (in your view) words to be written, as pornography sort of holds those qualities.

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  45. JWL and I have interacted on TheologyWeb a few times and I found this place through the Tektonics forum. I see Frank Walton here some and it's good to see him again.

    JWL has made the claim that I think he is my enemy. Not at all. I rather picture it like the Matrix. The system is my enemy. (In his case, the system of naturalism. There are other systems like Islam, the New Age Movement, the WTBTS, etc.) Ironically, I seem to have to fight against those caught by the system to get them unplugged.

    The adultery thing always surprises me. Now I can imagine that it would involve a lot of sorrow on the part of one who did wrong and knew it. However, none of us really have to imagine.

    We don't because we've all made mistakes.

    This is something I think JWL needs to realize. Everyone on this site and everyone you meet has their own sins. My difficulties are dealt with through a good Christian counselor and through close friends who are confidantes.

    Now JWL thinks we dismiss him because of his adultery. Not at all. I could really care less. I'm more interested in the arguments brought forward. If anyone is focused on his adultery, it's JWL. When I look at him though, I do not see the adultery issue. At least, if I see it, I see it more as a tragic happening that has led him down this road. I don't think "Oh you wicked adulterer!"

    After all, I believe in the Christ who said "Go and sin no more." (Even if it's not an actual account, most of us I would think agree it matches the character of Christ.)

    I do agree though that he needs to accept responsibility for his actions. It might have made the temptation harder for David to see Bathsheba naked. There's no excuse though for him having her come to his place.

    The difference is, David knew that.

    He didn't even realize it immediately and he did a lot worse than JWL! He had one of his own soldiers murdered (And who knows how that could have affected the well-being of other soldiers on the battlefield) just to cover it up and it seemed more important that Uriah was murdered than the danger of other soldiers based on the way Joab's messenger was told to give the report.

    However, he repented and is said to be "A man after God's own heart."

    JWL needs to be answered I think not for his sake really, but for the sake of those reading the book and so that all sides will know that Christians do have answers.

    However, and I don't mean this as an insult in anyway, JWL himself needs a good Christian counselor. If JWL takes that as an insult, well that reveals a lot more about him than it does about me. I don't look down on anyone who gets counseling. I think it's a shame that anyone would.

    I think Steve did an excellent job with his review and I aspire to be like that someday as well. For JWL though, it will fall on deaf ears until he repents and gets his life right. This is the quote I have kept saying on theologyweb though and I will say it here.

    Lady MacBeth. You can keep wiping that spot all you want. It's not coming out.

    Only one can cleanse that spot. It's a shame that's the one you're trying to deny.

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