Showing posts sorted by relevance for query 1 tim 3:15. Sort by date Show all posts
Showing posts sorted by relevance for query 1 tim 3:15. Sort by date Show all posts

Wednesday, November 23, 2011

Does Rome teach a correct understanding of 1 Timothy 3:15, Part 1

What is Paul trying to say in 1 Timothy 3:15? And what is Rome trying to tell you with its use of this verse? Are they the same thing?

Look at the sentence, “Walking down the hall, I saw a statue”. Now, if I were the one walking down the hall, and saw a statue, that would be one thing. But if it were the case, “I saw a statue walking down the hall,” that would be a different thing!

In understanding this verse, the grammatical concept of an “appositive” needs to be introduced. An “appositive” is a noun or nominative phrase that is “placed next to” another phrase or concept, “usually occurring directly after” the earlier noun or phrase, “and standing for the same thing”. Here are some examples, with the appositive phrase in italics:
At camp we met Mr. Willett, the scoutmaster.

Our first dog, a spaniel, was very fond of the baby.

The two senior members, James and I, are in charge of public relations.

The guide, a man of great courage and skill, was mainly responsible for our rescue.

His trouble was money, the notorious root of all evil.
(Source, Gucker’s “Essential English Grammar”)

“Appositives” come into play, because this verse from Paul seems to have several of them. And the topic comes up in one or more of the commentaries that deal with the verse.

Pete Holter and I have been having a discussion that began in the comments of this thread, and it continued here and in some private emails.

My topic, at any rate, was the question of either “teaching correctly about the word of God” [Martin Luther’s words] or, as I later pointed out, doing what Rome does, rather than trying to understand the text and then allowing it to speak its word, the Roman Catholic starts with modern Roman doctrine, and then uses Biblical texts in such a way that they can seemingly provide support for those [Roman] doctrines. In that regard, I provided a link to a blog post I had written about Rome’s use of 1 Timothy 3:15, where I said:
My contention in this posting is that Rome’s official usage of this verse is wrong at best. But what’s worse is that in popular apologetics, Roman apologists are going far beyond what even Rome says in this verse.

One popular Catholic writer said this: “As Saint Paul taught, the church is ‘the pillar and ground of the truth’ – she does not err. (1 Tim 3:15)” [This was a Taylor Marshall-ism.]
Rome’s misuse of the verse is bad enough [especially from an “infallible church” in an official, conciliar document]. But what’s worse is that Rome’s usage fosters a “scattering” of what this verse really says among know-nothing Roman Apologists (and others) who continue to spread these false meanings far beyond Rome’s already-bad usage of it. Here is another example from a popular Roman Catholic website:
1 Tim. 3:15 - Paul says the apostolic Church (not Scripture) is the pillar and foundation of the truth. But for the Church to be the pinnacle and foundation of truth, she must be protected from teaching error, or infallible. She also must be the Catholic Church, whose teachings on faith and morals have not changed for 2,000 years. God loves us so much that He gave us a Church that infallibly teaches the truth so that we have the fullness of the means of salvation in His only begotten Son.
To be sure, this has nothing to do with what Paul was saying to Timothy in 1 Tim 3:15. And keep in mind, again, the topic was Martin Luther’s comment about “teaching correctly about the word of God”. Rome wasn’t doing this at the time of the Reformation, and it’s not doing it now.


2.

In order to “teach correctly” this verse, we first need to understand what Paul is actually saying.

For background purposes, here is the passage in Greek: Ταῦτά σοι γράφω ἐλπίζων ἐλθεῖν πρὸς σὲ ἐν τάχει ἐὰν δὲ βραδύνω, ἵνα εἰδῇς πῶς δεῖ ἐν οἴκῳ θεοῦ ἀναστρέφεσθαι, ἥτις ἐστὶν ἐκκλησία θεοῦ ζῶντος, στῦλος καὶ ἑδραίωμα τῆς ἀληθείας.

Here it is in the ESV: I hope to come to you soon, but I am writing these things to you so that, if I delay, you may know how one ought to behave in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, a pillar and buttress of the truth.

NIV: Although I hope to come to you soon, I am writing you these instructions so that, if I am delayed, you will know how people ought to conduct themselves in God’s household, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of the truth.

In my original post, I provided extensive selections from three commentators, and each of those is reproduced here for anyone who wants to look at them:

The Text of 1 Tim 3:15, including the entire chapter for context.

Philip Towner on 1 Tim 3:15, The Letters to Timothy and Titus, New International Commentary on the New Testament (NICNT) series, Grand Rapids, MI and Cambridge, UK: William B. Eerdmans Publishing Company, ©2006.

L.T. Johnson on 1 Tim 3:15, The First and Second Letters to Timothy: A New Translation with Introduction and Commentary, Anchor Yale Bible Commentaries, New York, NY: The Anchor Bible Doubleday, ©2001.

George Knight on 1 Tim 3:15, The Pastoral Epistles: A Commentary on the Greek Text (New International Greek Testament Commentary (NIGTC) series, Grand Rapids, MI, William B. Eerdmans Publishing Company, ©1992.

Note: Clicking on the “[Name] on 1 Tim 3:15” links will take you to a blog post at my own blog that shows the scanned pages from the commentary; the links behind the commas, showing the name of the work, takes you to the Amazon.com page for that work.


3.

Now, here is Rome’s official use of this verse in Lumen Gentium 8:
Christ, the one Mediator, established and continually sustains here on earth His holy Church, the community of faith, hope and charity, as an entity with visible delineation through which He communicated truth and grace to all. But, the society structured with hierarchical organs and the Mystical Body of Christ, are not to be considered as two realities, nor are the visible assembly and the spiritual community, nor the earthly Church and the Church enriched with heavenly things; rather they form one complex reality which coalesces from a divine and a human element. For this reason, by no weak analogy, it is compared to the mystery of the incarnate Word. As the assumed nature inseparably united to Him, serves the divine Word as a living organ of salvation, so, in a similar way, does the visible social structure of the Church serve the Spirit of Christ, who vivifies it, in the building up of the body.

This is the one Church of Christ which in the Creed is professed as one, holy, catholic and apostolic, which our Saviour, after His Resurrection, commissioned Peter to shepherd, and him and the other apostles to extend and direct with authority, which He erected for all ages as “the pillar and mainstay of the truth”. This Church constituted and organized in the world as a society, subsists in the Catholic Church, which is governed by the successor of Peter and by the Bishops in communion with him…

Taking the bold-face portions from Lumen Gentium, here is what Rome is saying without all the densely-packed modifiers:

Christ, the one Mediator, established and continually sustains here on earth His holy Church, [the society structured with hierarchical organs and the Mystical Body of Christ]. This is the one Church of Christ which He erected for all ages as “the pillar and mainstay of the truth”.

Rome’s language is dense, which makes it difficult to follow the main thought that’s presented here. But taking out all the modifiers, this is what we are left with. This is what we are to understand what Rome, officially, is saying. This is how Rome understands, and teaches 1 Tim 3:15. In Rome’s usage, Rome does in fact appear to be saying that Christ’s whole purpose in founding the church in its current Roman manifestation, in fact, the whole purpose of the hierarchical structure of the church is to function as a “pillar and mainstay of the truth”. But is that what Paul means? Is this anything close to what Paul is saying?

Since this is already long, I’ll pause for now, and pick up the discussion in a future blog post.

Wednesday, August 11, 2004

Credo

Credo
1. I believe in one God, infinite in wisdom and power, and high above time and space, futurity or fortuity, yet near to the humble of heart.

Exod 20:3; Deut 6:4; 32:17,21,39; Ps 106:37; Isa 41:29; 44:6; 45:5-6
1 Sam 23:11-12; 2 Kgs 13:19; Ps 94:7-9; 139:1-4; 147:4-5; Isa 29:15-16; 42:9; 44:6-7; 46:10; Jer 23:23-24; 38:17-20; Mt 11:21,23; Rom 11:33-34
Ps 33:6-20; 115:3; Isa 14:27; 43:13; 55:11; Jer 32:17; Eph 3:20; Rev 1:8
Num 23:19; 1 Sam 15:29; Ps 90:1-4; 102:25-27; Jas 1:17
2 Chron 6:18; Ps 139:7-10; Isa 31:3; Jn 1:18; 4:24; Rom 1:20; Col 1:15; 1 Tim 1:17; 6:16
Ps 33:10-11; Isa 40:12-31; 43:10b; 46:5,9; Jn 1:1; 17:5,24; Acts 17:24-25
Ps 34:18; 85:9.

2. I believe that God eternally subsists in an inner symmetry of Father, Son and Spirit. I believe in God the Father, who freely foreordained the salvation of elect, and damnation the reprobate; I believe in his eternal Son, who has revealed the Father, and redeemed the elect; I believe in the Spirit of God, who renews and preserves the elect, and inspires the Scriptures.

Mt 3:16-17; 28:19; Jn 14:16,26; 15:26; 1 Cor 12:4-6; 2 Cor 13:14
Rom 9-11; Eph 1; 1 Pet 2:9
Jn 9:39; 12:37-41; Rom 9:17-18,21-22; 1 Pet 2:7b-8
Jn 1:18; Col 1:15
Jn 6:37-39; 10:11,14-15,26; 11:52; 13:1; 15:13; 17:2,6-7,9,24; Heb 9:15; 10:14
Jn 3:3-8; Tit 3:5.
2 Cor 1:21-22; Eph 1:13-14; 4:30
Mt 22:43; Acts 1:16; 4:25; 28:25; Heb 10:15f.; 2 Pet 1:21

3. I believe that God made the world in a span of six solar days according to his eternal plan and exemplary perfection. I believe that he directs the whole course of history —from the fall of man to the falling sparrow.

Gen 1
Ps 139:16; Prov 3:19
Ps 19:1-6; Prov 3:19; Rom 1:20; Eph 3:9-10
Eccl 3:1-14; Isa 14:24-27; 46:10; Lam 3:37-38; Jn 9:1-3; 11:4
Rom 11:32; Gal 3:22
Mt 10:30

4. I believe that God made man direct from the dust. I believe that all men fell in the downfall of Adam, as the first man and father of all. I believe that fallen man is altogether indisposed to either please God or take pleasure in God apart from his unmerited favor and invincible grace.

Gen 1-2; 1 Cor 15:45-47.
Rom 5:12a,18-19; 1 Cor 15:21-22.
Rom 1:18; 8:8; Eph 2:3b.
Jn 3:19-20; Rom 8:7; 1 Cor 2:14; Eph 2:1-3; 4:17-19
Jn 6:44-45,65; Rom 4:4; Eph 2; Tit 3:3-5
Jn 1;14; Phil 2:6-7; Col 2:9; Heb 2:14; 1 Jn 4:2
Isa 7:14; Mt 1:18-25; Lk 1:26-38
Jn 8:46; Heb 4:15; 7:26
Jn 2:11
Heb 2:14; 1 Jn 3:8.
Lk 24; Jn 20-21
Ps 110:1; Jn 6:62; 20:17; Acts 1:9; Col 3:1; Heb 6:20; 9:12,24
1 Cor 8:25; Eph 1:20-22

5. I believe that the Son of God became incarnate by the Virgin Mary, led an impeccable life, did mighty deeds, died for the sins of his people, and destroyed the works of the devil. I believe that he was raised in the flesh and ascended to the Father, from whence he governs his Church by sending his Spirit to convict the world of sin, righteousness and judgment.

Jn 16:8-11
Mt 25:31-46; 2 Thes 1:7-10; Rev 19:11-21
Rev 21:3; 22:3-5
Isa 26:19; Dan 12:2-3; Jn 5:28-29; 1 Cor 15:20-23,35-57; Phil 3:21; 1 Thes 4:15-17
Dan 12:2; Mt 25:41,46; Jn 5:29; Rev 14:11
Jas 1:23
E.g., Lk 24:27,44-47
Heb 4:12; Jas 1:23.
E.g., Genesis-Exodus.
Rom 10:17; 1 Pet 1:23; Jas 1:18.
Jn 1:29; 1 Cor 5:7; 10:1-5; 11:23-26

6. I believe that he will return again to judge his enemies and dwell with his people. I believe that the dead in Christ will be raised to everlasting life and bliss while the damned will be raised to everlasting shame and misery.

Mt 25:31-46; 2 Thes 1:7-10; Rev 19:11-21
Rev 21:3; 22:3-5
Isa 26:19; Dan 12:2-3; Jn 5:28-29; 1 Cor 15:20-23,35-57; Phil 3:21; 1 Thes 4:15-17
Dan 12:2; Mt 25:41,46; Jn 5:29; Rev 14:11

7. I believe in the Bible as the infallible word of God, which, like a mirror, enables me to glimpse a true reflection of myself, my world, and my God. I believe that the Bible evinces its inspiration by its candor, concerted plan, discerning scan, archetypal quality, quickening power, and verisimilitude. I believe in baptism and communion as types and tokens of the work of Christ, and inworking of his Spirit.

Jas 1:23
E.g., Lk 24:27,44-47
Heb 4:12; Jas 1:23.
E.g., Genesis-Exodus.
Rom 10:17; 1 Pet 1:23; Jas 1:18.
Jn 1:29; 1 Cor 5:7; 10:1-5; 11:23-26
Ezk 36:25-27; 47:1-12; Jn 3:5; 7:38-39.

8. I believe that knowing God is the highest good, for God is the highest good. I believe that God foreordained the Fall to manifest his mercy, justice, wisdom and power for the edification of the elect. I believe that my chief calling in this life and in the life to come is to glory in God and enjoy him forever.

Rom 11:32; Gal 3:22
1 Kgs 8:37-40; Ps 51:4; 130:4; Ezk 20:26; Lk 7:42b-43; Jn 9:3,39; 11:4; Rom 5:20; 9:17,22-23; Eph 3:9-10; Rev 14:7; 15:1-4..
Ps 73:25; Lk 2:32; Rev 4:8-11; 5:9-14; 7:11-12

9. I believe that my only hope, in life or death, is that I am not my own, but belong to my faithful Savior Jesus Christ, who by his blood has made full atonement for all my sins. I believe that I am justified by the sole and sufficient merit of Christ through the grace of faith. I believe that when I die my soul shall pass immediately into the presence of Christ with the all saints in glory.

Rom 3:21-28; 4:1-5:1; Gal 2:16; 3:10-14; Phil 3:8-9
2 Cor 5:1-10; Phil 1:23; Rev 20:4,6

Saturday, December 08, 2012

I Believe

One of the greatest honors and pleasures of my life is to be a writer here at Triablogue. I'm aware of the reputation that Steve and some of the other writers have built over the years, and I'm amazed that I'm a part of this crew.

As a blogger here, I have many opportunities to search the archives, which I do on occasion, and I found this piece from Steve Hays in August 2004, written within the first couple of months of the start-up of Triablogue. I'm reposting it here because it's an excellent reminder of why we do what we do:

Credo
1. I believe in one God, infinite in wisdom and power, and high above time and space, futurity or fortuity, yet near to the humble of heart.

Exod 20:3; Deut 6:4; 32:17,21,39; Ps 106:37; Isa 41:29; 44:6; 45:5-6
1 Sam 23:11-12; 2 Kgs 13:19; Ps 94:7-9; 139:1-4; 147:4-5; Isa 29:15-16; 42:9; 44:6-7; 46:10; Jer 23:23-24; 38:17-20; Mt 11:21,23; Rom 11:33-34
Ps 33:6-20; 115:3; Isa 14:27; 43:13; 55:11; Jer 32:17; Eph 3:20; Rev 1:8
Num 23:19; 1 Sam 15:29; Ps 90:1-4; 102:25-27; Jas 1:17
2 Chron 6:18; Ps 139:7-10; Isa 31:3; Jn 1:18; 4:24; Rom 1:20; Col 1:15; 1 Tim 1:17; 6:16
Ps 33:10-11; Isa 40:12-31; 43:10b; 46:5,9; Jn 1:1; 17:5,24; Acts 17:24-25
Ps 34:18; 85:9.

2. I believe that God eternally subsists in an inner symmetry of Father, Son and Spirit. I believe in God the Father, who freely foreordained the salvation of elect, and damnation the reprobate; I believe in his eternal Son, who has revealed the Father, and redeemed the elect; I believe in the Spirit of God, who renews and preserves the elect, and inspires the Scriptures.

Mt 3:16-17; 28:19; Jn 14:16,26; 15:26; 1 Cor 12:4-6; 2 Cor 13:14
Rom 9-11; Eph 1; 1 Pet 2:9
Jn 9:39; 12:37-41; Rom 9:17-18,21-22; 1 Pet 2:7b-8
Jn 1:18; Col 1:15
Jn 6:37-39; 10:11,14-15,26; 11:52; 13:1; 15:13; 17:2,6-7,9,24; Heb 9:15; 10:14
Jn 3:3-8; Tit 3:5.
2 Cor 1:21-22; Eph 1:13-14; 4:30
Mt 22:43; Acts 1:16; 4:25; 28:25; Heb 10:15f.; 2 Pet 1:21

3. I believe that God made the world in a span of six solar days according to his eternal plan and exemplary perfection. I believe that he directs the whole course of history — from the fall of man to the falling sparrow.

Gen 1
Ps 139:16; Prov 3:19
Ps 19:1-6; Prov 3:19; Rom 1:20; Eph 3:9-10
Eccl 3:1-14; Isa 14:24-27; 46:10; Lam 3:37-38; Jn 9:1-3; 11:4
Rom 11:32; Gal 3:22
Mt 10:30

4. I believe that God made man direct from the dust. I believe that all men fell in the downfall of Adam, as the first man and father of all. I believe that fallen man is altogether indisposed to either please God or take pleasure in God apart from his unmerited favor and invincible grace.

Gen 1-2; 1 Cor 15:45-47.
Rom 5:12a,18-19; 1 Cor 15:21-22.
Rom 1:18; 8:8; Eph 2:3b.
Jn 3:19-20; Rom 8:7; 1 Cor 2:14; Eph 2:1-3; 4:17-19
Jn 6:44-45,65; Rom 4:4; Eph 2; Tit 3:3-5
Jn 1:14; Phil 2:6-7; Col 2:9; Heb 2:14; 1 Jn 4:2
Isa 7:14; Mt 1:18-25; Lk 1:26-38
Jn 8:46; Heb 4:15; 7:26
Jn 2:11
Heb 2:14; 1 Jn 3:8.
Lk 24; Jn 20-21
Ps 110:1; Jn 6:62; 20:17; Acts 1:9; Col 3:1; Heb 6:20; 9:12,24
1 Cor 8:25; Eph 1:20-22

5. I believe that the Son of God became incarnate by the Virgin Mary, led an impeccable life, did mighty deeds, died for the sins of his people, and destroyed the works of the devil. I believe that he was raised in the flesh and ascended to the Father, from whence he governs his Church by sending his Spirit to convict the world of sin, righteousness and judgment.

Jn 16:8-11
Mt 25:31-46; 2 Thes 1:7-10; Rev 19:11-21
Rev 21:3; 22:3-5
Isa 26:19; Dan 12:2-3; Jn 5:28-29; 1 Cor 15:20-23,35-57; Phil 3:21; 1 Thes 4:15-17
Dan 12:2; Mt 25:41,46; Jn 5:29; Rev 14:11
Jas 1:23
E.g., Lk 24:27,44-47
Heb 4:12; Jas 1:23.
E.g., Genesis-Exodus.
Rom 10:17; 1 Pet 1:23; Jas 1:18.
Jn 1:29; 1 Cor 5:7; 10:1-5; 11:23-26

6. I believe that he will return again to judge his enemies and dwell with his people. I believe that the dead in Christ will be raised to everlasting life and bliss while the damned will be raised to everlasting shame and misery.

Mt 25:31-46; 2 Thes 1:7-10; Rev 19:11-21
Rev 21:3; 22:3-5
Isa 26:19; Dan 12:2-3; Jn 5:28-29; 1 Cor 15:20-23,35-57; Phil 3:21; 1 Thes 4:15-17
Dan 12:2; Mt 25:41,46; Jn 5:29; Rev 14:11

7. I believe in the Bible as the infallible word of God, which, like a mirror, enables me to glimpse a true reflection of myself, my world, and my God. I believe that the Bible evinces its inspiration by its candor, concerted plan, discerning scan, archetypal quality, quickening power, and verisimilitude. I believe in baptism and communion as types and tokens of the work of Christ, and inworking of his Spirit.

Jas 1:23
E.g., Lk 24:27,44-47
Heb 4:12; Jas 1:23.
E.g., Genesis-Exodus.
Rom 10:17; 1 Pet 1:23; Jas 1:18.
Jn 1:29; 1 Cor 5:7; 10:1-5; 11:23-26
Ezk 36:25-27; 47:1-12; Jn 3:5; 7:38-39.

8. I believe that knowing God is the highest good, for God is the highest good. I believe that God foreordained the Fall to manifest his mercy, justice, wisdom and power for the edification of the elect. I believe that my chief calling in this life and in the life to come is to glory in God and enjoy him forever.

Rom 11:32; Gal 3:22
1 Kgs 8:37-40; Ps 51:4; 130:4; Ezk 20:26; Lk 7:42b-43; Jn 9:3,39; 11:4; Rom 5:20; 9:17,22-23; Eph 3:9-10; Rev 14:7; 15:1-4..
Ps 73:25; Lk 2:32; Rev 4:8-11; 5:9-14; 7:11-12

9. I believe that my only hope, in life or death, is that I am not my own, but belong to my faithful Savior Jesus Christ, who by his blood has made full atonement for all my sins. I believe that I am justified by the sole and sufficient merit of Christ through the grace of faith. I believe that when I die my soul shall pass immediately into the presence of Christ with the all saints in glory.

Rom 3:21-28; 4:1-5:1; Gal 2:16; 3:10-14; Phil 3:8-9
2 Cor 5:1-10; Phil 1:23; Rev 20:4,6

With the RefTagger feature, I'm sure this is much better now than it was under the old format. Just hover your mouse over the Scripture verses and the citations will pop up for you.

Also, the Archives are all accessible in the right hand column; if you're interested in a topic, the Google Search feature is very impressive as well.

Friday, September 12, 2008

Ersatz ecclesiology

BILLZUCK SAID:

“It is true that house, church, and pillar and foundation do not have articles. While in the case of house the article might have been incorporated into the preposition, the others are predicate nominatives and normally would not receive the article in any case.”

In which case the construction is neutral. You can’t simply assume that it should be rendered “the” church.

“These terms are generics that indicate what the object is, not the object itself…Therefore these generic terms cannot be reduced to the local church at Ephesus.”

True, since generic terms can designate many things beside a church. A Greek temple has pillars. Therefore, is a Greek temple a pillar of truth?

A private residence is also a “house.” Therefore, is a private residence a pillar of truth?

Your argument either proves too much or too little.

“They rather designate the genus to which Ehesus is a species. This is elementary greek logic which Paul would have learned in Tarsus which was a university town only second to Alexandria.”

As we’ve just seen, that inference doesn’t follow from your own argument. I trust that Paul was a better logician than you are.

“Since this is instruction to Timothy and Paul sends him to work in many churches, e.g. 1Thess.3:2, it must be applicable in every place he goes to minister. Ephesus is not the only church so we cannot restrict this terminology to a description of Ephesus alone. I conclude that the pillar is the church as such.”

You’re not paying attention to what I’ve said. I made the point that the referent of 1 Tim 3:15 is the church of Ephesus.

Did I deny that Paul’s imagery is applicable to other local churches? No. But you can’t simply pluck 1 Tim 3:15 out of context and reassign it to the modern church of Rome. That isn’t exegeting the text.

“The church is that body of which Christ is the head (Col.1:18,24) and all baptized people are members (1Cor.6:11,15; 12:13,27).”

Are baptized apostates members of the church?

“This body is one body (1Cor.12:13; Col.3:15; Eph.4:4) and all are members one of another (Rom.12:5). Christ and His Church are thus one whole Christ (see 1Cor12:12-13).”

One of your problems is that you equate the meaning of a word with the meaning of a concept. The “church” has acquired many connotations over the last two millennia. But Paul is using ekklesia as a synonym for the OT congregation (or assembly) of the Lord.

“This body is visible because the sacraments by which it is constituted are visible.”

Even if I accepted your Catholic sacramentology, that has absolutely nothing to do with the exegesis of 1 Tim 3:15.

“The local churches are all parts of one visible church because the bread which they all bless and break is a participation of the Body of Christ, and all who partake of that one bread become one bread and one body.”

Not only is that acontextual, but it’s counter to the text. You’ve now defined the church in sacramental terms rather than alethic terms. Paul said a pillar of truth, not a pillar of the Mass.

“Thus all the churches are one visible catholic church and Timothy is to conduct himself in this way in all the churches that are the church of the living God which is the pillar and foundation ofthe truth.”

Paul says nothing about “one visible catholic church,” so your gloss is superimposed on the text rather than derived from the text.

BTW, why should anyone care how you interpret 1 Tim 3:15? Do you speak for the Magisterium? Did the Vatican appoint you to be its point man?

Monday, September 08, 2008

Is the church a pillar & pedestal of truth?

I’ve discussed this verse (1 Tim 3:15) on more than one occasion, but since Catholics keep citing it as a prooftext for Catholicism, I have to correct them more than once.

To some extent I’ll repeat myself since they repeat themselves, but I’m also going to expand on some points.

Catholics always quote this out of context. But what questions should we ask ourselves when we approach this verse?

1. How should we render the Greek phrase? The Greek construction is anarthrous. There is no definite article. Therefore, there’s no reason to automatically translate the phrase as “the Church of God.”

2. Even if, for the sake of argument, we use a definite article, notice what the verse doesn’t say. It doesn’t say, “the Church of Rome is a pillar and pedestal of truth.”

3. So what church is Paul talking about? What’s the destination of the letter? The church of Ephesus (1 Tim 1:3).

4. So Paul is talking about a local church, and the referent is the church of Ephesus.

5. Why did Paul write 1 Timothy in the first place? What occasioned this letter?

The church of Ephesus had been infiltrated by false prophets. Paul sent Timothy to function as a troubleshooter and letter courier.

Now, think about that for a moment. Is a local church that’s been infiltrated by false teachers a “pillar and pedestal” of truth? Would such a church be a source of false teaching rather than sound doctrine?

Why did Paul write them in the first place? Why did he leave Timothy behind? To combat false teachers in the church of Ephesus.

6. And this is not the only example by any means. Was the church of Corinth a “pillar and pedestal” of truth? No, it was a source of false teaching. He had to write to correct their false teaching.

Were the churches of Galatia pillars of truth? No, they were teetering on the brink of apostasy. What about the church of Colossae? No, he wrote that church to combat the Colossian heresy. What about the church of Thessalonica? No, he wrote that church to combat the Hymenaean heresy.

And it isn’t limited to Paul. Were all seven churches of Asia Minor (Rev 2-3) pillars of truth? No. What about the Christian communities to which Peter addressed 2 Peter and Jude addressed his epistle? No. What about the destination of 1 John and the letter of Hebrews? No and no.

Because Catholics fall back on traditional prooftexting, and think in abstract rather than historical terms, they don’t stop to consider the concrete circumstances of the NT churches.

7. Catholics only quote 1 Tim 3:15b. But what’s the immediate context of that clause? 1 Tim 3:14-15a.

Does Paul say that in his absence, the church of Ephesus can get along just fine without him since the church is a pillar and foundation of truth? That Ephesian Christians can learn everything they need to learn from the Magisterium or teaching office of the Church?

No, he says nothing of the kind. To the contrary, he is writing to them so that they will know how to conduct themselves in church. They aren’t getting this from the church. They are getting this from him. From his teaching to the church (e.g. the household code in 1 Tim 2:1-3:13).

He is writing them because he can’t teach them in person—at the moment. But in any case, their source of sound doctrine comes from him. Not from the church, as a pillar and pedestal of truth.

In context, 1 Tim 3:15 is the very antithesis of a prooftext for ecclesiastical authority.

Friday, November 05, 2010

The church of Ephesus

I’m catching up on some old business:

Stan Williams:

“In the RSV the language (in English) is the ‘household of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and bulwark of the truth.’ Which makes it clear that we're not talking about a local parish. The ‘household of God’ and ‘the church of the living God’ is universal (Catholic) concepts. And again, no mention is made of Scripture, but a body of people.”

i) How is it clear that a local church can’t be a household of God?

ii) Since the Greek construction is anarthrous, why insert a definite article before the noun?

iii) Moreover, even a Catholic commentator like Msgr. Quinn admits that house-churches were the norm at this time and place. So that would favor a local church referent.

iv) The 1C church of Rome was, itself, a local parish.

“It makes no sense that 1 Tim 3:15 refers in context to ‘only’ the Church as Ephesus.”

Since 1 Tim was addressed to a man pastoring the church of Ephesus, it makes perfect sense to refer the phrase to the church of Ephesus, whereas it makes no sense to refer the phrase to the church of Rome. What textual evidence is there that 1 Tim 3:15 denotes the church of Rome? None whatsoever. That goes against the setting.

“If so, then what authority does Paul have to write about anything?“

Apostolic authority.

“He was not under the elders at Ephesus.”

Naturally, since an apostle outranks an elder.

“There is nothing in the context that limits the definition of ‘church.’ But there is everything to imply (especially coming from a missionary ‘apostle’ like Paul) that ‘church’ here refers to the ‘wider’ universal church.”

i) To the contrary, missionaries like Paul planted local churches.

ii) Every church is not a pillar of truth. The church of Corinth was often a pillar of error. And we could cite other examples (e.g. Galatians).

“And that indeed is how the Roman Catholic Church understands it. There is the wider "church" for which the Roman Church speaks form time to time about what is true, as revealed to by the Holy Spirit to the Church as a whole.”

A circular argument. Suppose a Mormon “understood” 1 Tim 3:15 as denoting the LDS church?

“But we Catholic apologists refer to this verse to point out that the Bible NO WHERE states that the Bible is the foundation of truth.”

i) Actually, it’s better than a foundation of truth. It is the truth.

ii) To say the Bible doesn’t make a certain self-referential claim misses the point–like people who can’t see their glasses because they can’t see without their glasses.

“Indeed, the Bible points to ‘the church’ in this verse ... and the logical understanding of the infallible Word is the ‘universal’ Church.”

I don’t see you quoting an infallible magisterial interpretation of 1 Tim 3:15. Rather, I see you attempting to foist your private opinion on the rest of us.

“By the way, there was no New Testament when Paul wrote this, nor in the hundreds of years after it was distributed as a letter.”

The very fact that you’re trying to prooftext your position betrays your own (albeit inconsistent) reliance on the written word of God.

Wednesday, January 18, 2006

Creepy stuff!

***QUOTE***

Comments:
Ah, yes, the wonderfully reassuring Calvinist doctrine of God choosing some He created to roast in hell.

Ok, kids, now get out your decoder rings, we are going to read the Bible Calvinist style! Ready....here we go.

"All" ... dial in the code and you will see that really that word is "some"

"World" ... dial in that code and you will see that word is really "some of the world."

You get the picture.

Creepy stuff indeed.

# posted by ptmccain : 1/17/2006 7:01 PM

http://triablogue.blogspot.com/2006/01/double-predestination.html

***END-QUOTE***

Gene Bridges, in his excellent reply, hasn’t left much for me to say by way of responding to McCain’s latest salvo. So my own rejoinder will be a footnote to his—a mopping-up operation.

1.On a side note, I find it odd that McCain keeps trying to drag me into a fight over Lutheranism. While I have some definite disagreements with Lutheran theology, there's almost nothing I disagree with in Lutheran theology that I don't disagree with in a number of other theological traditions, while Lutheranism has a number of compensatory virtues which are absent from the other theological traditions. Indeed, it even has virtue lacking in the Reformed tradition—an unsurpassed musical legacy. Hence, until McCain came along, I've had next to nothing to say by way of explicit criticism of the Lutheran tradition.

McCain suffers from a deep-seated antipathy towards Calvinism which I just can't reciprocate towards Lutheranism. Indeed, when I was still living in California I used to attend a WELS church for the singing and preaching.

2.It’s striking to see how Mr. McCain simply blew past all the verses I cited in support of double predestination.

Now, I’ll grant you that citing a concatenation of prooftexts is not the same thing as proving your point. It’s not a substitute for exegesis. But Lutheranism needs to do something with all these passages as well.

Calvinism didn’t invent the doctrine of election whole cloth. And Calvinism didn’t invent the doctrine of reprobation whole cloth. This is not the implication of a belief-system. Rather, Calvinism taking its cue from the witness of Scripture.

3.It’s always funny to see so many critics of Calvinism appeal to the passages of Scripture which seem to speak of the atonement in cosmic or universal terms.

Our critics act as if they held the patent on these particular verses of Scripture. But if we were to interpret words like “world” and “all” the way McCain chooses to do, then the only theological tradition which could monopolize on these passages of Scripture is universalism.

And this is not just a hypothetical position. In our own time, writers like Thomas Talbott, Marilyn McCord Adams, and Jan Boda have penned book-length defenses of universalism.

4. Regarding the “universal” (“every,” “all”) passages, McCain doesn’t know the function of a universal quantifier. He doesn’t know the difference between sense and referent. If he’d doing any serious reading in Biblical semantics he’d know this.

5. Regarding the “cosmic” (“world) passages, McCain is like an old-time fundamentalist who assumes that a word has the same meaning for a contemporary reader that it had for the original author. As Vern Poythress put it:

“’Plain interpretation,’ let us say, is interpretation of a text by interpreters against the context of the interpreters’ tacit knowledge or their own worldview and historical situation. It minimizes the role of the original historical and cultural context. Grammatical-historical interpretation differs from plain interpretation precisely over the question of the primary historical and cultural context for interpretation. Plain interpretation reads everything as if it were written directly to oneself, in one’s own time and culture,” Understanding Dispensationalists (Zondervan 1987). I’d add that more astute fundamentalists are correcting for this mistake.

Now, when, as 21C reader, you come across a word like the “world,” what comes to mind? Doesn’t it conjure up a mental image of the globe, as seen from outer space by Apollo 11? Doesn’t it trigger a mental map of glowing cities and swarming multitudes scattered all across the face of the earth?

When we, as modern readers, come across this word, we bring a tacit geography to bear on the meaning. We prejudge the meaning based on our own experience and usage.

But to assume that this must be what John or Paul intended courts a gross anachronism.

If McCain were to spend a little time with the standard Greek lexicons and dictionaries (e.g., BAG, DNTT, EDNT, TLNT), he’d see that his assumption is quite unscholarly and simplistic.

Let’s take some concrete examples. In the most recent major commentary on John, this is how Andrew Lincoln interprets Jn 3:16:

“Some argue that the term ‘world’ here simply has neutral connotations—the created human world. But the characteristic use of “the world” (ho kosmos) elsewhere in the narrative is with negative overtones—the world in its alienation from and hostility to its creator’s purposes. It makes better sense in a soteriological context to see the latter notion as in view. God loves that which has become hostile to God. The force is not, then, that the world is so vast that it takes a great deal of love to embrace it, but rather that the world has become so alienated from God that it takes an exceedingly great kind of love to love it at all,” The Gospel According to St. John (Henrickson 2005), 154.

In other words, Jn 3:16 defines the love of God, not by the number of the people whom God loves, but by the kind of people whom God loves.

And if McCain were to consult a concordance of Johannine usage, he could see for himself that this is, in fact, characteristic of Johannine usage.

Or let’s consider the universal language of the Pastoral Epistles. This is how one scholar, in a standard commentary on the Pastorals, broaches the question. He begins with a discussion of the "Ephesian heresy”:

“Paul explicitly calls the teaching ‘Jewish’ (Titus 1:14) and speaks of ‘those of the circumcision” (Titus 1:10). The opponents want to be known as teachers of the law (1 Tim 1:7), and to apply its restrictive function to all people for both salvation and lifestyle…Repeatedly Paul calls the teaching ‘myths’ (1 Tim 1:4; 2 Tim 4:4; Titus 1:14). ‘Myths and genealogies’ (1 Tim 1:4; Titus 3:9) are probably haggadic Midrash: allegorical reinterpretations of the OT, perhaps as fanciful interpretations of the OT genealogies…along the order of those found in Jubilees and Pseudo-Philo Biblical Antiquities…The heresy appears to be sectarian and exclusive, or anti-Gentile (1 Tim 2:1-7), warranting Paul’s emphasis on the universal offer of salvation to all people (1 Tim 2:6; 4:10; cf. 1:15), including Gentiles (1 Tim 2:7),” W. Mounce, Pastoral Epistles (T. Nelson, 2000), lxix-lxx.

Regarding 1 Tim 2:5 in particular, he then says:

“The only other place Paul speaks about a mediator is in Gal 3:19, where he identifies Moses as the mediator of the OT law…It is also possible that here Paul is contrasting Christ’s mediatorial work for all people with the Jewish concept of Moses as mediator for Jews along,” ibid. 88.

On this interpretation, Paul’s point in 1 Tim 2:5 is that Christ is the only mediator for Jews and Gentiles alike.

Another scholar approaches the same question from the same point of departure, but arrives at a somewhat different interpretation:

“Much remains uncertain about the false teachers in 1 Timothy since Paul dismisses their teaching instead of refuting it. It may be that they were consumed with genealogies because they restricted salvation along certain ethnic lines (1 Tim 1:4)…When Paul says that God desires all to be saved (1 Tim 2:4) and that Christ was the random for all (1 Tim 2:6), he may be responding to some who excluded Gentiles from salvation for genealogical reasons,” T. Schreiner, “Paul: Apostle of God’s Glory in Christ (IVP 2001), 184-85.

“Tit 2:11 should be interpreted along similar lines…Paul counters Jewish teachers (Tit 12:10,14-15; 3:9) who construct genealogies to exclude some from salvation,” ibid. 185.

“Some object to the interpretation proposed here, arguing that ‘all’ must include all people without exception. Good reasons exist, however, to think that ‘all’ or ‘world’ must be interpreted carefully. For instance, the hymnic statement in 1 Tim 3:16 says that Christ ‘was believed by the world.” The word kosmos here cannot mean that every person without exception has trusted in Jesus Christ, for it was obvious to Paul that many in the world disbelieved. Paul almost certainly means that the whole world, comprising both Jews and Gentiles, believes. In other words, ‘world’ here denotes all without distinction and not all without exception,” ibid. 185-86.

“Such an interpretation is also a sensible reading of 2 Cor 5:14-15…The ‘all’ for whom Christ died are not all without exception but all without distinction, including both Jews and Gentiles. Such an interpretation would explain how ‘all died’ when Christ died for them…2 Cor 5:15 seems to support this view as well: ‘he died for all so that those living should no longer live for themselves but for the one who died and has been raised for them.’ When Paul uses the phrase ‘those living (hoi zontes)…[it] refers to those who are spiritually alive. Those who are spiritually alive are the ‘all’ for whom Christ died in 2 Cor 5:14. In dying to the power of sin in Christ, they also came to life in Christ,” 186.

Schreiner’s entire excursus is well worth reading.

Both Schreiner and Mounce begin by trying to isolate and identify the Ephesian heresy. In order to know what Paul is affirming, you need to know what Paul is opposing.

In addition to this general consideration, Schreiner and Mounce both construe the text before them on the basis of specific contextual delimiters.

This, Mr. McCain, is how to do exegesis. In a sense, you do have to decode the text of Scripture. You cannot simply use your own cultural code. Rather, you need to dial in the cultural code of the original author, audience, and opponent.

That’s what the grammatico-historical method is all about. McCain defends his own position by resorting to obscurantism. But although the Bible was written for us, it wasn’t written to us. So one must make some elementary effort to bridge the gap between now and then. It means what it meant.

Tuesday, April 20, 2004

150 Leaky Buckets-2

95. "'Positive confession'" movements in pentecostal evangelicalism have adopted views of God (in effect) as a "cosmic bellhop," subject to man's frivolous whims and desires of the moment, thus denying God's absolute sovereignty and prerogative to turn down any of man's improper prayer requests (Jas 4:3; 1 Jn 5:14)."

The absolute sovereignty of God? Oh, but wouldn’t that affirmation turn God into the author of evil, &c., (pace #63). Isn't that downright demonic?

99. "Protestantism, in all essential elements, merely borrows wholesale from Catholic Tradition, or distorts the same. All doctrines upon which Catholics and Protestants agree, are clearly Catholic in origin (Trinity, Virgin Birth, Resurrection, 2nd Coming, Canon of the Bible, heaven, hell, etc.). Those where Protestantism differs are usually distortions of Catholic forerunners. E.g., Quakerism is a variant of Catholic Quietism. Calvinism is an over-obsession with the Catholic idea of the sovereignty of God, but taken to lengths beyond what Catholicism ever taught (denial of free will, total depravity, double predestination, etc.). Protestant dichotomies such as faith vs. works, come from nominalism, which was itself a corrupt form of Scholasticism, never dogmatically sanctioned by the Catholic Church. Whatever life or truth is present in each Protestant idea, always is derived from Catholicism, which is the fulfillment of the deepest and best aspirations within Protestantism."

Funny, I thought these doctrines were Biblical in origin. Silly me!

Incidentally, does the RCC still believe in hell? Isn’t it rapidly moving in the direction of universalism (e.g. Rahner, Ratzinger, John-Paul II, Urs von Balthasar)? Not only does Armstrong not appear to have read the opposing side, he seems not to have read his own side, either.

101. "The Bible doesn't contain the whole of Jesus' teaching, or Christianity, as many Protestants believe (Mk 4:33; 6:34; Lk 24:15-16,25-27; Jn 16:12; 20:30; 21:25; Acts 1:2-3)."

Another strawman argument. Names please! Name me one prominent Protestant theologian who ever supposed otherwise.

103. "The NT was neither written nor received as the Bible at first, but only gradually so (i.e., early Christianity couldn't have believed in sola Scriptura like current Protestants, unless it referred to the OT alone)."

The NT was written and received as Scripture from the very first by the audience to which its various writings were variously addressed. Gradual reception has reference to the shift from the viewpoint of the local church to the church-at-large, in terms of distribution.

As Roger Beckwith remarks, "probably all these book were accepted as Scripture from an early period in some quarter of the church, even those whose acceptance is not recorded. Otherwise we would have to suppose that, at the end of the 4C, some of them sprang up suddenly from being canonical nowhere to being canonical everywhere, an implausible supposition," New Dictionary of Biblical Theology (IVP 2000), 31.

110. St. Paul, in 1 Tim 3:15, puts the Church above Bible as the grounds for truth, as in Catholicism.

1 Tim 3:15 doesn't say that "the" church is "the" pillar of truth, but that "a" church is "a" pillar of truth. Armstrong should read the J. N. D. Kelly's commentary on this verse. Armstrong should learn the difference between definite and indefinite constructions, as well as the difference between the local and the universal church.

111. "Protestantism's chief "proof text" for sola Scriptura, 2 Tim 3:16, fails, since it says that the Bible is profitable, but not sufficient for learning and righteousness. Catholicism agrees it is great for these purposes, but not exclusively so, as in Protestantism. Secondly, when St. Paul speaks of "Scripture" here, the NT didn't yet exist (not definitively for over 300 more years), thus he is referring to the OT only. This would mean that NT wasn't necessary for the rule of faith, if sola Scriptura were true, and if it were supposedly alluded to in this verse!"

Sola Scriptura was never predicated on one isolated prooftext. Rather, it’s grounded in the principle of divine revelation. Christianity is a revealed religion. The rule of faith coincides with the canon at any given stage of progressive revelation—from Moses to John the Revelator. Canonical closure and covenantal disclosure are correlative. The prooftext for sola scriptura is the whole of Scripture.

Armstrong is like a man who can't see the window because he's looking through it. But without that transparent medium, he couldn't see at all.

101. "The Bible doesn't contain the whole of Jesus' teaching, or Christianity, as many Protestants believe (Mk 4:33; 6:34; Lk 24:15-16,25-27; Jn 16:12; 20:30; 21:25; Acts 1:2-3).
102. Sola scriptura is an abuse of the Bible, since it is a use of the Bible contrary to its explicit and implicit testimony about itself and Tradition. An objective reading of the Bible leads one to Tradition and the Catholic Church, rather than the opposite. The Bible is, in fact, undeniably a Christian Tradition itself!
103. The NT was neither written nor received as the Bible at first, but only gradually so (i.e., early Christianity couldn't have believed in sola Scriptura like current Protestants, unless it referred to the OT alone).
104. Tradition is not a bad word in the Bible. Gk. paradosis refers to something handed on from one to another (good or bad). Good (Christian) Tradition is spoken of in 1 Cor 11:2; 2 Thess 2:15, 3:6, and Col 2:8. In the latter it is contrasted with traditions of men.
105. Christian Tradition, according to the Bible, can be oral as well as written (2 Thess 2:15; 2 Tim 1:13-14; 2:2). St. Paul makes no qualitative distinction between the two forms.
106. The phrases "word of God" or "word of the Lord" in Acts and the epistles almost always refer to oral preaching, not to the Bible itself. Much of the Bible was originally oral (e.g., Jesus' entire teaching- He wrote nothing -St. Peter's sermon at Pentecost, etc.).
107. Contrary to many Protestant claims, Jesus didn't condemn all tradition any more than St. Paul did. E.g., Mt 15:3,6; Mk 7:8-9,13, where He condemns corrupt Pharisaical tradition only. He says "your tradition."
108. Gk. paradidomi, or "delivering" Christian, apostolic Tradition occurs in Lk 1:1-2; Rom 6:17; 1 Cor 11:23; 15:3; 2 Pet 2:21; Jude 3. Paralambano, or "receiving" Christian Tradition occurs in 1 Cor 15:1-2; Gal 1:9,12; 1 Thess 2:13.
109. The concepts of "Tradition," "gospel," "word of God," "doctrine," and "the Faith" are essentially synonymous, and all are predominantly oral. E.g., in the Thessalonian epistles alone St. Paul uses 3 of these interchangeably (2 Thess 2:15; 3:6; 1 Thess 2:9,13 (cf. Gal 1:9; Acts 8:14). If Tradition is a dirty word, then so is "gospel" and "word of God"!
110. St. Paul, in 1 Tim 3:15, puts the Church above Bible as the grounds for truth, as in Catholicism.
111. Protestantism's chief "proof text" for sola Scriptura, 2 Tim 3:16, fails, since it says that the Bible is profitable, but not sufficient for learning and righteousness. Catholicism agrees it is great for these purposes, but not exclusively so, as in Protestantism. Secondly, when St. Paul speaks of "Scripture" here, the NT didn't yet exist (not definitively for over 300 more years), thus he is referring to the OT only. This would mean that NT wasn't necessary for the rule of faith, if sola Scriptura were true, and if it were supposedly alluded to in this verse!
112. The above 11 factors being true, Catholicism maintains that all its Tradition is consistent with the Bible, even where the Bible is mute or merely implicit on a subject. For Catholicism, every doctrine need not be found primarily in the Bible, for this is Protestantism's principle of sola Scriptura. On the other hand, most Catholic theologians claim that all Catholic doctrines can be found in some fashion in the Bible, in kernel form, or by (usu. extensive) inference."

This tirade suffers from a systematic equivocation over the identity of "tradition." One major problem is that Armstrong is trading on a Tridentine two-source model of Scripture and tradition, defined as oral tradition, that was quietly rescinded at Vatican II. But the real distinction is between inspired (apostolic) tradition and uninspired (ecclesiastical) tradition. Eleven falsehoods don't add up to a single truth.

113. "As thoughtful evangelical scholars have pointed out, an unthinking sola Scriptura position can turn into "bibliolatry," almost a worship of the Bible rather than God who is its Author. This mentality is similar to the Muslim view of Revelation, where no human elements whatsoever were involved. Sola Scriptura, rightly understood from a more sophisticated Protestant perspective, means that the Bible is the final authority in Christianity, not the record of all God has said and done, as many evangelicals believe."

(i) Since idolatry is a Biblical category to begin with, the charge of bibliolatry is oxymoronic.
(ii) It is Armstrong who sets up a false antithesis between the divine and human elements of Scripture. Inasmuch as human speech is, itself, a divine endowment, the human element goes back to the divine. Inspiration presupposes creation and providence. All three are divine acts.
(iii) The only Protestants to bandy the charge of "bibliolatry" are liberal Protestants, whom Armstrong elsewhere attacks.
(iv) Speaking of idolatry, what about the cult of Mary and the saints?

115. "Sola scriptura literally couldn't have been true, practically speaking, for most Christians throughout history, since the movable-type printing press only appeared in the mid-15th century. Preaching and oral Tradition, along with things like devotional practices, Christian holidays, church architecture and other sacred art, were the primary carriers of the gospel for 1400 years. For all these centuries, sola Scriptura would have been regarded as an absurd abstraction and impossibility."

If the pre-16C absence of the printing press rules out Sola Scriptura, then it also rules out other such print media as papal bulls, conciliar degrees, the Roman Missal, &c.

117. "Sola Scriptura is Protestantism's "Achilles' Heel." Merely invoking sola Scriptura is no solution to the problem of authority and certainty as long as multiple interpretations exist. If the Bible were so clear that all Protestants agreed simply by reading it with a willingness to accept and follow its teaching, this would be one thing, but since this isn't the case by a long shot (the multiplicity of denominations), sola Scriptura is a pipe-dream at best. About all that all Protestants agree on is that Catholicism is wrong! Of all Protestant ideas, the "clarity" or perspicuity of the Bible is surely one of the most absurd and the most demonstrably false by the historical record."

(i) Multiple interpretations of Scripture? Again, when was the last time that Armstrong read a commentary by Brown or Johnson or Quinn or Fitzmyer?
(ii) Who said that Sola Scriptura had to be a problem-solving device? The status of Sola Scriptura is a factual question, not a utilitarian one. Is written revelation the only divinely appointed source and standard of dogmatic authority? That’s the real question. No rule of faith constrains consent. Certainly the Magisterium is no exception to this principle. It is ultimately God, in his providence, who causes any of us to believe or disbelieve as we do.
Are the multiplication tables a "pipe dream" because people still make mistakes in their computations? It is ultimately God, in his providence, who causes any of us to believe or disbelieve as we do.
(iii) I'd add that the idea of apostolic succession is surely one of the most demonstrably false by the historical record.

118. "Put another way, having a Bible does not render one's private judgment infallible. Interpretation is just as inevitable as tradition. The Catholic Church therefore, is absolutely necessary in order to speak authoritatively and to prevent confusion, error, and division."

Why is private judgment invalid when applied to Scripture, but valid when applied to Councils and encyclicals? Why is a fallible interpretation of the Bible such a no-no when a fallible interpretation of an encyclical is A-okay?

Since the Magisterium failed to prevent the Reformation, with all the attendant "confusion, error, and division" which Armstrong attributes to that event, then the Magisterium failed his own litmus test.

120. "Protestantism has a huge problem with the Canon of the NT. The process of determining the exact books which constitute the NT lasted until 397 A.D., when the Council of Carthage spoke with finality, certainly proof that the Bible is not "self-authenticating," as Protestantism believes. Some sincere, devout, and learned Christians doubted the canonicity of some books which are now in the Bible, and others considered books as Scripture which were not at length included in the Canon. St. Athanasius in 367 was the first to list all 27 books in the NT as Scripture.
121. The Council of Carthage, in deciding the Canon of the entire Bible in 397, included the so-called "Apocryphal" books, which Protestants kicked out of the Bible (i.e., a late tradition). Prior to the 16th century Christians considered these books Scripture, and they weren't even separated from the others, as they are today in the Protestant Bibles which include them. Protestantism accepts the authority of this Council for the NT, but not the OT, just as it arbitrarily and selectively accepts or denies other conciliar decrees, according to their accord with existing Protestant "dogmas" and biases."

(i) The trade secret of RC is that it didn’t even have an official canon of Scripture until the Counter-Reformation (Trent). The RC canon is parasitic on the Protestant canon (e.g. WCF; 39 Articles). Isn’t Armstrong aware that the Council of Carthage could not speak with finality inasmuch as it as a local body rather than an ecumenical council? "The Tridentine list or decree was the first infallible and effectually promulgated declaration on the Canon of the Holy Scriptures" (http://www.ewtn.com/library/COUNCILS/TRENT4.HTM). So the Protestant canon was actually a stimulus to the Catholic canon, not vice versa.
(ii) A compelling case can be made for the proposition that the Protestant canon is identical with the Jewish canon. (Cf. R. Beckwith: The Old Testament Canon of the New Testament Church [Eerdmans, 1986]). Trent made the wrong call. So much for the infallibility of the extraordinary Magisterium.
(iii) If we were to take seriously what Armstrong says under point #115, then most pre-15C Christians could not have considered the Apocrypha to be canonical inasmuch as they didn’t have access to copies of the Apocrypha.
(iv) Does Protestantism have a huge problem establishing the canon? Try this little exercise. Any study Bible will have a column of cross-references. Such cross-references amount to a system of cross-attestation. And there are multiplied thousands of such cross-references. Hence, the canon of Scripture is, if anything, overdetermined by a dense network of internal cross-attestation.

Again, many books of the Bible fall into natural blocks of material—based on common authorship, common genre, a continuous history, or synoptic histories, as well as key stages in the life of Israel and the church.

122. "Contrary to Protestant anti-Catholic myth, the Catholic Church has always revered the Bible, and hasn't suppressed it (it protested some Protestant translations, but Protestants have often done the same regarding Catholic versions). This is proven by the laborious care of monks in protecting and copying manuscripts, and the constant translations into vernacular tongues (as opposed to the falsehoods about only Latin Bibles), among other plentiful and indisputable historical evidences. The Bible is a Catholic book, and no matter how much Protestants study it and proclaim it as peculiarly their own, they must acknowledge their undeniable debt to the Catholic Church for having decided the Canon, and for preserving the Bible intact for 1400 years. How could the Catholic Church be "against the Bible," as anti-Catholics say, yet at the same time preserve and revere the Bible profoundly for so many years? The very thought is so absurd as to be self-refuting. If Catholicism is indeed as heinous as anti-Catholics would have us believe, Protestantism ought to put together its own Bible, instead of using the one delivered to them by the Catholic Church, as it obviously could not be trusted!"

Before the Reformation, the Latin Church had a monopoly on W. Christendom. So most true believers belonged to that communion. It is this gracious remnant who upheld Biblical spirituality and scholarship. But with the Reformation, the Evangelical Catholics were excommunicated, and the RCC has been going downhill ever since.

And, in fact, we do have our own Bible, for we went back to the Jewish canon of the OT—the canon of Jesus and the Apostles. Armstrong flatly contradicts, in #122, what he had just said under #121. More Buddhist logic!

125. "Protestantism separates justification from sanctification, contrary to Christian Tradition and the Bible (e.g., Mt 5:20; 7:20-24; Rom 2:7-13; 1 Cor 6:11; 1 Pet 1:2)."

Protestant theology doesn't "separate" the two, but distinguishes them, because we respect the categorical difference between justification and sanctification—between the merit of Christ and human virtue, such as it is.

126. "Protestantism pits faith against works (sola fide), which is a rejection of Christian Tradition and the explicit teaching of the Bible (Mt 25:31-46; Lk 18:18-25; Jn 6:27-9; Gal 5:6; Eph 2:8-10; Phil 2:12-13; 3:10-14; 1 Thess 1:3; 2 Thess 1:11; Heb 5:9; Jas 1:21-7; 2:14-16). These passages also indicate that salvation is a process, not an instantaneous event, as in Protestantism."

Protestant theology merely distinguishes between progressive events (e.g. sanctification) and immediate events (e.g. regeneration, justification).

127. "Protestantism rejects the Christian Tradition and biblical teaching of merit, or differential reward for our good deeds done in faith (Mt 16:27; Rom 2:6; 1 Cor 3:8-9; 1 Pet 1:17; Rev 22:12)."

There is an elementary and essential difference between a gratuitous reward and a meritorious reward. When I reward a dog with a biscuit, does that imply doggy-merit? Is there a treasury of canine merit accrued on the basis of supererogatory pet tricks?

130. "Contrary to Protestant myth and anti-Catholicism, the Catholic Church doesn't teach that one is saved by works apart from preceding and enabling grace, but that faith and works are inseparable, as in James 1 and 2. This heresy of which Catholicism is often charged, was in fact condemned by the Catholic Church at the Second Council of Orange in 529 A.D. It is known as Pelagianism, the view that man could save himself by his own natural efforts, without the necessary supernatural grace from God. A more moderate view, Semi-Pelagianism, was likewise condemned. To continue to accuse the Catholic Church of this heresy is a sign of both prejudice and manifest ignorance of the history of theology, as well as the clear Catholic teaching of the Council of Trent (1545-63), available for all to see. Yet the myth is strangely prevalent."

The issue is precisely whether there can be degrees of grace. Armstrong supposes that, by sprinkling on enough modifiers, he can salvage the principle. This misses the whole point. Grace cannot be qualified or quantified. Grace is a totalitarian principle. Read Romans, Galatians, Ephesians, &c.

131. "Protestantism has virtually eliminated the practice of confession to a priest (or at least a pastor), contrary to Christian Tradition and the Bible (Mt 16:19; 18:18; Jn 20:23)."

Armstrong erases essential distinctions. The question is not about the confession of sin, per se. The question is whether the offending party should confess to a third-party (the priest), instead of the offended party. and then receive third-party absolution.

136. "Protestantism has rejected (largely due to misconceptions and misunderstanding) the Catholic developed doctrine of indulgences, which is, simply, the remission of the temporal punishment for sin (i.e., penance), by the Church (on the grounds of Mt 16:19; 18:18, and Jn 20:23). This is no different than what St. Paul did, concerning an errant brother at the Church of Corinth. He first imposed a penance on him (1 Cor 5:3-5), then remitted part of it (an indulgence: 2 Cor 2:6-11). Just because abuses occurred prior to the Protestant Revolt (admitted and rectified by the Catholic Church), is no reason to toss out yet another biblical doctrine. It is typical of Protestantism to burn down a house rather than to cleanse it, to 'throw the baby out with the bath water.'"

This misrepresents the context of 1-2 Cor—as well as RC theology. A penance presupposes Purgatory, while an indulgence presupposes a treasury of merit. Needless to say, Purgatory is absent from 1 Cor 5 while the treasury of merit is absent from 2 Cor 2. Armstrong is inferring one interpolation from another interpolation.

Who is Armstrong to say that he has a better grasp of RC theology than Luther, who was a theology prof., or Peter Martyr, who held various official positions as a prior and an abbot?

As to the baby and the bath water, I guess it all depends on the baby. If I found a baby viper swimming around in the bath water, I'd throw the baby viper out with the bath water.

138. "Protestantism rejects, on inadequate grounds, the intercession of the saints for us after death, and the correspondent invocation of the saints for their effectual prayers (Jas 5:16). Christian Tradition and the Bible, on the other hand, have upheld this practice: Dead saints are aware of earthly affairs (Mt 22:30 w/ Lk 15:10 and 1 Cor 15:29; Heb 12:1), appear on earth to interact with men (1 Sam 28:12-15; Mt 17:1-3, 27:50-53; Rev 11:3), and therefore can intercede for us, and likewise be petitioned for their prayers, just as are Christians on earth (2 Maccabees 15:14; Rev 5:8; 6:9-10)."

Armstrong misrepresents the principle of intercession. It isn’t just a question of intercessors in the great beyond—although that would still transgress the Scriptural prohibition against necromancy (e.g. Lev 19:31; 20:6). Rather, it is predicated on the principle of saintly merit—as Armstrong very well knows.

141. "Protestantism rejects Mary's Immaculate Conception, despite developed Christian Tradition and indications in the Bible: Gen 3:15; Lk 1:28 ("full of grace" Catholics interpret, on linguistic grounds, to mean "without sin"); Mary as a type of the Ark of the Covenant (Lk 1:35 w/ Ex 40:34-8; Lk 1:44 w/ 2 Sam 6:14-16; Lk 1:43 w/ 2 Sam 6:9: God's Presence requires extraordinary holiness)."

To infer the Immaculate Conception from Lk 1:28 commits a simple semantic fallacy. Luke is using an objective, not a subjective genitive. Mary is the object of divine favor, and not the source of divine grace. Armstrong should read a modern Catholic commentary on Luke, viz., Fitzmyer, Johnson. But, of course, his Catholicism is frozen fast in the Victorian era. As a convert to the faith, his brand of Catholicism is a museum piece, and not a living specimen.

Moreover, the logic of the Immaculate Conception is viciously regressive—if Mary, then St. Anne, and so on all the way back to Eve. Original Sin would never get off the ground.

143. "Many (most?) Protestants deny Mary's perpetual virginity, despite Christian Tradition (inc. the unanimous agreement of the Protestant founders (Luther, Calvin, Zwingli, etc.), some Protestant support, and several biblical evidences, too involved to briefly summarize.

For once I quite agree with Armstrong. The "Biblical" evidence for Mary’s perpetual virginity is indeed too convoluted to briefly summarize. Special-pleading is much more time-consuming than straightforward exegesis.

144. "Protestantism denies Mary's Spiritual Motherhood of Christians, contrary to Christian Tradition and the Bible (Jn 19:26-7: "Behold thy mother"; Rev 12:1,5,17: Christians described as "her seed.") Catholics believe that Mary is incomparably more alive and holy than we are, hence, her prayers for us are of great effect (Jas 5:16; Rev 5:8; 6:9-10). But she is our sister with regard to our position of creatures vis-a-vis the Creator, God. Mary never operates apart from the necessary graces from her Son, and always glorifies Him, not herself, as Catholic theology stresses."

If Armstrong is going to universalize Jn 19:27, then, in consistency, Christians ought to imitate every other imperative in Scripture: "Crucify him!" (Jn 19:6); "Go, wash in the Jordan seven times" (2 Kgs 5:10); "Go, marry a whore" (Hos 1:2). The woman in Rev 12 is a polyvalent figure, standing for Eve, Israel, Mary, Virgo, and the Church.

145. "Protestantism rejects the papacy, despite profound Christian Tradition, and the strong evidence in the Bible of Peter's preeminence and commission by Jesus as the Rock of His Church. No one denies he was some type of leader among the apostles. The papacy as we now know it is derived from this primacy: Mt 16:18-19; Lk 22:31-2; Jn 21:15-17 are the most direct "papal" passages. Peter's name appears first in all lists of apostles; even an angel implies he is their leader (Mk 16:7), and he is accepted by the world as such (Acts 2:37-8,41). He works the first miracle of the Church age (Acts 3:6-8), utters the first anathema (Acts 5:2-11), raises the dead (Acts 9:40), first receives the Gentiles (Acts 10:9-48), and his name is mentioned more often than all the other disciples put together (191 times). Much more similar evidence can be found."

Did the Renaissance papacy meet the conditions set down in Lk 22:31-32 & Jn 21:15-17. As to Mt 16, if v18 equates the papacy with the Vicar of Christ, then v23 equates the papacy with the Antichrist. So let’s split the difference. I’ll affirm the former if Armstrong affirms the latter.

It should go without saying that the Eastern Orthodox church, which can certainly lay claim to tradition, has never acknowledged papal primacy, and for the very reason that it lacks the weight of ancient tradition.

146. "The Church of Rome and the popes were central to the governance and theological direction and orthodoxyof the Christian Church from the beginning. This is undeniable. All of the historical groups now regarded as heretical by Protestants and Catholics alike were originally judged as such by popes and/or Ecumenical Councils presided over and ratified by popes."

This appeal passes over in silence the case of heretical pontiffs like Liberius, Zosimus, Vigilius, Julius I, Honorius I, Celestine I and Eugenius IV (Cf. B. Kidd, The Roman Primacy To AD 461 [SPCK, 1936]; I. von Döllinger, The Pope and the Councils [Boston, 1870].)

149. "Catholicism has the best Christian philosophy and worldview, worked out through centuries of reflection and experience. As in its theological reflection and development, the Catholic Church is ineffably wise and profound, to an extent truly amazing, and indicative of a sure divine stamp. I used to marvel, just before I converted, at how the Catholic Church could be so right about so many things. I was accustomed to thinking, as a good evangelical, that the truth was always a potpourri of ideas from many Protestant denominations and Catholicism and Orthodoxy (selected by me), and that none "had it all together." But, alas, the Catholic Church does, after all!"

Is Armstrong denying different schools of theological thought in Catholicism (e.g. Thomism, Scotism, Molinism)? And what about differences within given schools (e.g. Transcendental Thomism, Existential Thomism, Analytic Thomism).

150. "Last but by no means least, Catholicism has the most sublime spirituality and devotional spirit, manifested in a thousand different ways, from the monastic ideal, to the heroic celibacy of the clergy and religious, the Catholic hospitals, the sheer holiness of a Thomas a Kempis or a St. Ignatius and their great devotional books, countless saints - both canonized and as yet unknown and unsung, Mother Teresa, Pope John Paul II, Pope John XXIII, the early martyrs, St. Francis of Assisi, the events at Lourdes and Fatima, the dazzling intellect of John Henry Cardinal Newman, the wisdom and insight of Archbishop Fulton Sheen, St. John of the Cross, the sanctified wit of a Chesterton or a Muggeridge, elderly women doing the Stations of the Cross or the Rosary, Holy Hour, Benediction, kneeling - the list goes on and on. This devotional spirit is unmatched in its scope and deepness, despite many fine counterparts in Protestant and Orthodox spirituality."

Of course, a Protestant would regard devotional exercises like the cult of the sacred heart of Mary as so much sublime idolatry.

Tuesday, September 25, 2007

Eyewitnesses And Servants Of The Word

Owing to the influence of [Rudolf] Bultmann, it has become a "basic article of belief" with most form critics that "the Gospel tradition owed the form in which it reached our evangelists almost entirely to community use and its demands, and hardly at all to direct intervention or modification on the part of eye-witnesses." Appeals to eyewitnesses found in the Gospels, and especially the epistles, usually have been understood as apologetic fictions.

To be sure, some of the earliest form critics - most notably Vincent Taylor and Martin Dibelius - diverged from the Bultmannian perspective and insisted that the disciples of Jesus must have played some regulating role in the oral transmission of the Jesus tradition....

Vincent Taylor even more emphatically states the case in his now-famous words: "It is on this question of eyewitnesses that Form-Criticism [e.g., as approached by Bultmann and company] presents a very vulnerable front. If the Form-Critics are right, the disciples must have been translated to heaven immediately after the Resurrection. As Bultmann sees it, the primitive community exists in vacuo, cut off from its founders by the walls of an inexplicable ignorance. Like Robinson Crusoe it must do the best it can. Unable to turn to anyone for information, it must invent situations for the words of Jesus, and put into his lips sayings which personal memory cannot check....However disturbing to the smooth working of theories, the influence of eyewitnesses on the formation of the tradition cannot possibly be ignored. The one hundred and twenty at Pentecost did not go into permanent retreat; for at least a generation they moved among the young Palestinian communities, and through preaching and fellowship their recollections were at the disposal of those who sought information....When all qualifications have been made, the presence of personal testimony is an element in the formative process which it is folly to ignore"...

The last several decades have seen a renewed emphasis on the need to understand Jesus and early Christianity within a first-century Jewish context. In this light, it is significant to note that - beginning with its Scriptures - the Jewish tradition as a whole put strong emphasis on the role of eyewitnesses. Only by appealing to credible eyewitnesses could one certify a claim as factual (e.g., Jer. 32:10, 12; Ruth 4:9-11; Isa. 8:2). Correlatively, bearing false witness was considered a major crime in ancient Judaism. Indeed, this was one of the explicit prohibitions of the ten primary stipulations of the Sinai covenant (Exod. 20:16). The Jewish law of multiple witnesses reflects the life-or-death importance of this command (Deut. 17:6-7; Num. 35:30).

It seems that this emphasis on the importance of eyewitnesses was quite explicitly carried over into the early church. The Sinai principle regarding multiple witnesses was retained (Mark 14:56, 59; John 5:31-32; Heb. 10:28) and made the basis of church discipline (Matt. 18:16; 2 Cor. 13:1; 1 Tim. 5:19). More broadly, the themes of bearing witness, giving a true testimony, and making a true confession are ubiquitous in the tradition of the early church (e.g., Matt. 10:18; Mark 6:11; 13:9-13; Luke 1:1-2; 9:5; 21:12-13; 22:71; John 1:7-8, 15, 19, 32, 34; 3:26, 28; 5:32; Acts 1:8, 22; 2:32; 3:15; 5:32; 10:37-41; 13:31; 22:15, 18; 23:11; 26:16; Rom. 1:9; 1 Cor. 1:6; 15:6; 2 Cor. 1:23; Phil. 1:8; 1 Thess. 2:5, 10; 1 Tim. 6:12-13; 2 Tim. 2:2; 1 Pet. 5:1; 2 Pet. 1:16; 1 John 5:6-11; Rev. 1:5; 2:13; 3:14; 6:9; 11:3; 17:6). As Robert Stein observes, the sheer pervasiveness of these themes in the early church testifies to "the high regard in which eyewitness testimony was held."

More specifically, certain key individuals are singled out in the New Testament for their roles as faithful witnesses, teachers, and preservers of the Jesus tradition, for example, Peter, James, and John, as well as James the brother of Jesus (e.g., Acts 1:15, 21-22; 2:14, 42; 3:1-11; 4:13, 19; 5:1-10, 15, 29; 8:14; 12:2; 1 Cor. 15:1-8; Gal. 2:9; Eph. 2:20). This emphasis on key individuals is not only consistent with ancient Judaism, but it is precisely what we should expect, given what we have learned from orality studies about the central role individual tradents play in orally dominant cultures.

It is difficult to explain this common appeal to eyewitness testimony in the New Testament if it is not rooted in historical fact. It seems we must accept as fact that "Jesus gathered around himself a group of committed disciples, some of whom were also prominent in the early church." This conclusion would suggest that mechanisms were in place in the early church that would naturally limit the amount of legendary material that was introduced into the Jesus tradition....

For many scholars, it seems that we have a very convincing reason for not accepting the early Jesus tradition as rooted in eyewitness recollection - namely the ubiquitous presence of supernatural and miraculous elements. Long ago, Julius Wellhausen made this often hidden presupposition quite explicit when he wrote, "The miracle stories in the form in which they are presented in Mark are most resistant to being attributed to the most intimate disciples of Jesus," and therefore "none of them may come from an eyewitness." Here, we submit, a historical decision about eyewitness influence upon the Jesus tradition is being decisively influenced by a metaphysical conviction about the possibility of supernatural occurrences....

Building upon some of the insights of [Samuel] Byrskog, [Richard] Bauckham offers several additional lines of evidence for the presence and importance of eyewitness testimony in the early church....

Bauckham has delivered a number of papers on this topic in recent years and has just released a full-scale study on the phenomenon of eyewitness testimony in the early Jesus tradition, Jesus and the Eyewitnesses: The Gospels as Eyewitness Testimony (Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 2006), that will likely serve as a landmark statement on this topic. Given that we were in the later stages of the publication process when the book was released, we were unable to incorporate it within the body of the text....

In conclusion, given that the first-century Jewish world of the pre-Gospel oral Jesus tradition highly valued eyewitness testimony, we find it far more plausible that the early church valued and preserved the essence of the personal remembrances of Jesus's original disciples than that they neglected the actual eyewitnesses, only to manufacture fabricated testimonies at a later date. At the very least, we can now conclude that the standard form-critical arguments against the presence of a significant amount of eyewitness testimony within the oral Jesus tradition are deeply flawed. (Paul Eddy and Gregory Boyd, The Jesus Legend [Grand Rapids, Michigan: Baker Academic, 2007], pp. 269-270, n. 2 on p. 270, 286-287, 290, n. 78 on p. 290, 291)

Thursday, June 27, 2019

Why be Catholic?

I recently asked a Catholic philosopher why he's Catholic rather than Protestant. I asked him because he's the smartest Catholic philosopher of his generation, so I was curious to get an answer from the best of the best, instead of the garden-variety Catholic apologist. Here's his reply:

In short: Scripture tells us that the Church is guided by the Holy Spirit (Jn 14:26; 16:13; 1 Tim 3:15). And only the Catholic and Orthodox Churches have a plausible case for having the same teaching as the early Church. Sexual ethics is perhaps the clearest case: Protestants have largely abandoned the teaching on contraception and remarriage after divorce.

He's distilled the Catholic apologetic down to what he considers to be the strongest arguments. It boils down to two arguments, using sexual ethics to illustrate one of the two arguments. So let's to back through his reasons:

Monday, September 08, 2008

The what iffy church

A Roman Catholic posted some belated comments on an older post of mine, so I’ll address them separately here:

ERIC TELFER SAID:

The form of the Revelation tends to dictate the nature of the issues that arise from it.

Not assumptions, but prior conclusions based on the nature of the Revelation that we are discussing.

That's because of the nature of the Revelation and the nature of the P-C dispute and the nature of how we know Revalation through other men and through history.

It is not about the questions, but about the nature of Revelation itself that we must get at here. There are things that are built into the nature of Revelation that cannot be avoided, especially when that Revelation comes to us through other men.


You keep repeating yourself without bothering to define your terms, defend your position, or show how you’d apply it to the case at hand.

This is a false dilemma. First, we do not have to choose between the authority of Scripture and the authority of the Church.

Even if that were the case, I’m not discussing the hypothetical question of whether we can have both, but the factual question. Even if Biblical authority and ecclesiastical authority aren’t logically contradictory, that doesn’t mean, as a matter of fact, that God has vested authority in two sources rather than one.

We can have both.

That depends on how you construe their interrelation. A 3-star general and a 4-star general both have authority, but one can overrule the other.

Second, there is not just the issue of how to relate the authority of Scripture to the authority of the Church, but, for Protestants, whether there even is an authoritative Church.

I think the church has disciplinary authority. And a competent pastor has the authority of an expert witness (although some layman also have the authority of an expert witness).

And, if there is, what it is and where it is to be found.

NT polity has congregational and presbyterial elements.

Furthermore, human authority is derivative. Church officers derive their disciplinary authority from their adherence to the word of God.

Third, if there is an authoritative Church, for Protestants, there is the issue of how the individual Protestant's authority relates to that authority. Some Protestants claim that Scripture is the ultimate authority and then claim themselves to be the final authority in interpreting Scripture and forming a theology based on it.

You’re simply reiterating the same framework as Bryan Cross. You assume that interpretation is an exercise of authority, whether individual or ecclesiastical.

That begs the question. The whole point of my post was to challenge that assumption. Repeating Bryan’s framework doesn’t nothing to advance the argument.

Scripture is the final authority, not any Church, in one respect, but the individual is the final authority in interpreting Scripture, not the Church.

Only if you assume that interpretation is an exercise of authority. I’m still waiting to see your supporting argument. You’re so used to casting the issue in these terms that you can’t break free of your Catholic conditioning.

When I read a comic strip like Peanuts, I’m interpreting the words and actions. Is that an authoritarian exercise?

That is one approach offered by some who work under the title of 'Protestant'. Others place themselves under the authority of other individuals who they judge to be superior to themselves with respect to such matters. Others think there is a general consensus that they should yield to. Others yield on some things, but not on others, suggesting that when they place a Church or group of people or organization over them, they will not always do so across the board. Lots of variations come to mind here.

And by what authority do you sift these variations? Not by the authority of the church, I hope, since ecclesiastical authority is just one more variation.

But this does not mean that authority can be brushed aside, regardless of matters of extension.

Which assumes an authority I’m guilty of brushing aside. You continue to beg the question.

Can the matter ever be settled without addresing the authority issue?

You need to establish that there is an authority issue in the first place. You keep running in circles, like a cat chasing its tail.

Steve's approach would have to try to figure out what criteria to rely on and then which interpretation was really correct given that criteria.

I don’t have a problem with discussing criteria for canonicity.

And it’s not as if you escape the problem you pose for yourself. Eric’s approach would have to try to figure out what criteria to rely on to identify the true church, and then which interpretation was really correct given his criteria.

And if that’s an authoritarian exercise, then Eric is making himself the final authority in deciding which church is the true church.

But the options are many, and many are reasonable.

If there are many reasonable options, then it’s reasonable to be either Catholic or Protestant. How does your concession help your own case?

The focus of Cross' questions, for the most part, is on 'Whose determination' and 'Whose interpretation' we should rely on as authoritative. Steve relies on the same concepts here, but instead of focusing on a resolution in terms of authority, Steve wants to resolve the issues by by-passing authority, as though it does not matter. How could Steve ever determine whose interpretation is best? Would it always be his? Would he be the interpretational trump card or king instead of an authoritative church?

How do we determine which interpretation of any statement is best? How do we determine the best interpretation of Huckleberry Finn?

Benedict XVI has written a number of books and encyclicals since his elevation to the papacy. How could Eric ever determine whose interpretation is best?

Regarding these questions, note that Steve is placing the Bible in one position of authority, but ignoring the fact that the Bible has to be interpreted.

That’s an outright falsehood. Did I ignore the fact that the Bible has to be interpreted? Not at all. What I challenged was the facile equation between interpretation and authority.

And can be interpreted authoritatively or non-authoritatively.

True.

But, if non-authoritatively, why should anyone believe Steve's interpretation over John's?

Why should anyone believe Daniel Block’s interpretation of Ezk 1 over Erich von Däniken’s? Does Block’s interpretation have to be “authoritative” (whatever that means) to be obviously superior to von Däniken’s?

Does Eric interpret a papal encyclical authoritatively or non-authoritatively?

The questions 'assume' or have concluded to the truth of perspicuity.

Wrong! As I’ve explained, my position isn’t predicated on the truth of perspicuity. Eric simply parrots the argument of Bryan Cross, without ever addressing my counterargument.

They have also 'assumed' or concluded to the notion that the Bible gives answers to all of these questions. And, implicitly, I wonder if Steve is not assuming that the authority issue can be avoided.

No, I don’t assume the Bible gives an answer to every question we can ask. Rather, the Bible answers the questions we need to ask.

The best way to learn the right questions is to begin with the answers. You can tell by the answers God has given us what questions we should be asking.

In the past, there was a Seat of Moses and there was an office of authority.

Citing Scripture and exegeting Scripture are two different things. What does Mt 23:2 actually mean?

How does Eric interpret Mt 23:2? Where is the Magisterial interpretation of Mt 23:2?

For a good interpretation of Mt 23:2, read Nolland’s commentary on Matthew (pp922-23).

But nature is full of heirarchical arrangements.

True, including matriarchal arrangements, e.g. hyenas, black widows, praying Mantes. So, if we take nature as our guide, why not a popess instead of a pope?

Christ is the head, but that would not prevent Christ from offering a leader on earth as well. Different senses are at work in the term 'head' and so the analogy, which relies on the term 'head' being used in the same sense, fails.

In that case, Bryan’s argument from analogy is invalid since it suffers from a fatal equivocation of terms.

But the answer will be in the form of an interpretation of the Bible. It is at the level of interpretation that we must also deal with the issue of authority.

Notice that Eric constantly assumes what he needs to prove. Why does interpretation raise the issue of authority? When I read Peanuts, does that raise the issue of authority?

Here's another 'whose determination' question. 'Whose' has to do with who which has to do with a person, not a book. In fact, even the questions that Steve rephrases in terms of the Bible giving the answer rely on an interpretation of the Bible. But only a person can interpret the Bible and so we are back to the person category again, i.e., 'whose determination', 'whose interpretation'?, which is the form of most of Cross' questions. Steve could not avoid that form on several questions, and really cannot avoid it in the end, either.

Eric is missing the point. The point at issue is whether who questions are equivalent to authority questions.

It is not a matter of prejudice. It is a matter of the nature of Revelation and the nature of the P-C controversy.

Eric must be getting dizzy running in circles.

Questions regarding authority demand an answer about who the authority might be, if there is one.

A tautology, since questions concering authority cast the question as a question concerning authority. But this takes for granted that we should frame the question that way in the first place.

Eric can never see above or around his Catholic conditioning.

That is because authority is critical when we talk about Revelation.

How many times can you beg the question in 30 seconds flat?

Moreover, it’s not as though Eric is an authority figure. He’s just a Catholic layman. By what authority does he speak to the issue of authority?

He is trying to help people unite as Christians in the truth.

Isn’t it rather presumptuous for a Catholic layman like Bryan Cross to assume that lofty role?

That is important and we should all let unity weigh on our hearts, as well as love and truth.

Why should unity be more important to me than it is to God? It’s within God power to make more people think alike that he does. If God declines to make everyone agree, or even every Christian, why should I lose sleep over the specter of disunity?

But we must remember that just as Democrats and Republicans are Americans first.

A lousy comparison since many Democrats are quite anti-American.

The nature of Revelation and the nature of the P-C controversy drive the questions in that direction.

You say it but you don’t show it.

If the questions are not adequate to begin with, other questions will come up and eventually we will be back to the issue of interprational authority.

An assertion in search of an argument.

'Fixatd' here is not charitable, as though there is something terribly wrong with him. He is focused on what is important based on an understanding of the nature of Revelation and the nature of the P-C controversy.

Why should I be charitable to Bryan Cross? If this is ultimately an issue of authority, then he is speaking out of turn. It’s not as if Bryan is an authority-figure.

If this all boils down to an issue of authority, then Bryan should shut up and let the Magisterium do the talking. But like so many Evangelical converts to Rome, he acts like a Protestant.

That influences unity, recalling that Christ prayed for unity, and that unity is better than disunity.

How does Eric interpret John 17? Is Eric his own interpreter?

Did Christ’s prayer succeed or fail? Eric obviously thinks his prayer failed since Eric is bothered by all the disunity in Christendom.

It’s been 2000 years since Jesus uttered that prayer. When, if ever, does Eric think that Christ’s prayer will be answered? And if it’s gone unanswered for so many centuries, then unity, as Eric defines it, doesn’t seem to be a priority for God.

He may be noting the theoretical and practical problems that arise when we do not grant an authority, and then concluding that this is good reason to think we should. But this is not an example of painting a target around his own arrow.

Of course he’s painted a target around his own arrow. He posits unity as his goal. Then he posits a Magisterial means to that end.

Why would Christ not give us an authoritative Church? Why would He not give us an enduring guide along the way so that we are not left alone to decide all of this?

Why would Christ not privately inspire every Christian so that we’re not left alone to decide all of this?

And how does Eric avoid individual decision, anyway? The church of Rome is not the only claimant. Eric, all by his little lonesome, must decide for himself that the church of Rome is the one true church.

The founding fathers did not just give us a Constitution and then leave us to do the rest. They also gave us a government with leaders along with the Constitution, a living tradition and a written document.

Whether you think that’s a good analogy depends on whether your Larry Tribe or Robert Bork.

But if Christ did more than Protestants think in the form of a Church, the consequences are avoidable for those who will join the New Covenant Family of God and recognize what Christ instituted for us. This does not reduce to what this or that person wants in terms of unity. We have to consider what Christ wanted and what Christ started, himself and through the Apostles.

Okay, let’s start with what Christ wanted. Does Christ get what he wants? Did Christ want the sort of unity that Eric thinks we should have? But we don’t have the sort of unity that Eric thinks we should have. So either Christ is impotent or Eric has the wrong definition of unity. I think I’ll choose Christ over Eric.

God could have avoided making an institutional Church that would be opposed by so many. Those who do oppose it need to conform to it, though, even if they do not like it, instead of creating their own versions of it. See how this thinking goes both ways. Steve is implying that God did not make a certain arrangement, even though God very well might have, and Steve may simply be wrong about Him having done so.

In that case, unity isn’t God’s objective. In that case, disunity is his objective.

I may be wrong, but I doubt Bryan Cross is trying for the type of certainty Steve is thinking of here. All of us have to make judgments about the Bible, about the Church, about whether there is authority, whether there is not authority, etc. We then have to make judgments about how to relate to that authority, if we think it exists. Our epistemological status at that level of judgment is one thing. Our status at another level, i.e., at the interpretational level once we submit to the authority of the Bible, or the Bible and the Church that canonized it, is another. It would seem to me that Bryan would, at least not be any worse off here.

So the Catholic isn’t any worse off than the Protestant? That’s your bottom line?

But God can guide us in different ways and He could be guiding us through a Church that He started. If so, then we have a bunch of people trying to figure out a bunch of things under God's guidance, but are unwilling to go to the Church that God started for further help.

That’s a hypothetical in search of a supporting argument.

This is unfair. It compares the Church Christ started, if the Catholic Church is that Church, with a psychic, and compares those who are willing to walk in faith with Christ's Church to those who need to see where they are going before they take the next step. Further, I would say that if Christ did start an authoritative Church that such a Church can be thought of as a light to the world whereby we can know, broadly, where we should walk and boundaries which we should not cross over.

When are you going to shift from iffy…iffy…iffy to something resembling an actual argument for your position?

But the Church may be the divine guide, along with the book it canonized.

Maybe…maybe…maybe…

Maybe not…maybe not…maybe not…

God has consistently guided us, in the Old and New Testaments

The Old and New Testaments? Hmm. That would be his Word.

Through other people, at least in part, even people with authority or an authoritative office.

What authoritative office?

But the walk of faith may have to do with walking in faith with the Church that Christ [and His Apostles] started, with that Church having an authority over the individual in matters of faith and morals. That could be the walk of faith that Christ really had in mind.

Maybe…iffy…coulda…coulda…maybe…iffy…maybe…iffy…coulda…maybe…maybe…coulda…

Christ gave us the Apostles.

They died.

Not just a message and life.

They wrote.

They gave us other leaders.

Pastors, not popes.

We know what is true about Christ because of those leaders.

Writers write because writers die. We’re left with the writing, not the writers.

If those leaders are rejected, the entire field darkens and the path becomes just about whatever path a person wants it to be within the context of Scripture, with Scripture having to be interpreted and so not limiting the path by much.

Really? What about Eastern Orthodoxy. It doesn’t have a pope. Does the modern church of Rome think the Orthodox church is walking in darkness? No.

Instead of walking down a path with the help of Christ's Church, the person is walking through fields, with a lot of other people telling him which way to go and left to decide it all, every step of the way.

You have to decide for yourself which church is the true church.

BTW, show me an infallible list of infallible magisterial teachings so that I don’t have to decide for myself, every step of the way, which magisterial teachings are fallible and which are not.

We do not have to choose between the authority of Scripture and the authority of the Church, as though this an either/or. The Bible itself tells us that the Church is the pillar and bullwark of truth.

How does Eric interpret 1 Tim 3:15? Where can I find the Magisterial interpretation of 1 Tim 3:15?

Does Eric interpret 1 Tim 3:15 with or without the Magisterium? If he relies on the Magisterium to interpret 1 Tim 3:15, then how does he know that 1 Tim 3:15 in fact applies to the Magisterium? Couldn’t a cult apply 1 Tim 3:15 to itself?

But if he interprets 1 Tim 3:15 apart from the Magisterium, then is he making himself the “final authority” on the interpretation of 1 Tim 3:15?

If we read any authority at all into that passage, we do not have to then put the Church above the Bible in any sense, necessarily, and especially not every sense. It could be that the Bible has more authority in one or more senses, while the Church has authority in other senses. It could be that they have complementary authority or some sort of co-authority. There are many logical possibilities here to consider.

How do “many possibilities” select for Roman Catholicism? The Magisterium can’t very well be the arbiter since the Magisterium is just one more “possibility.”

Yes. Whether one only accepts the Bible that the Church canonized or the Church and the Bible that the Church canonized will make a difference.

Did the Church canonize the OT? Were the Jews without a canon until the church came along?

Which church canonized which canon? There’s more than one claimant.

The issue of authority is being brought in, but needs to be brought in at that level. Why? Because it is important. Why? B ecause the Bible has to be interpreted, and we have to decide how we relate to others at this level, some of whom may have a legitimate office of authority, others of whom do not, without just assuming that no one has any more authority than us at this level.

Eric is like a child trapped on a merry-go-round. The music keeps playing. The horses keep circling. A lot of motion without a lot of locomotion. All that motion and commotion to end up exactly where you began, over and over and over again.

We need authority because authority is needful, and authority is needful because we need authority. Paraphrase ad nauseum.

At one level, we have to deal with the relation between an authoritative Church (if we grant one) and the authority of Scripture. At another level, we have to deal with the relation between the teaching office of an authoritative Church and the individual lay Christian.

We only have to deal with that if we grant all of your tendentious assumptions.