We now have laws which confer special rights on men who self-identify as women, or vice versa, due to "gender dysphoria."
What about racial dysphoria? If I'm a white guy who self-identifies as a black man, am I entitled to affirmative action benefits?
If gender is a social construct, why not race?
http://miscellanynews.org/2014/09/24/features/rows-concept-of-racial-dysphoria-spurs-heated-reviews/
O I'm going to have to remember that one!
ReplyDeleteNothing wrong with the logic. If the one isn't disordered, then neither is the other.
ReplyDeleteTransethnicity appears to be a real thing, but only in the case of children adopted by parents from different ethnicities - for one example, see: http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1300/J002v25n01_07#preview
ReplyDeleteWhite people claiming to identify as another ethnicity are probably just guilty of cultural appropriation and the minimisation of the real issues trans people face. You're belittling the demonstrable health issues associated with gender dysphoria. You also clearly don't understand the rights people are entitled to if you think that acknowledging genuine health issues is equivalent to the conference of "special rights".
Are you admitting that trans people are mentally ill?
DeleteWhat "genuine health issue" requires unisex bathrooms? Don't people who (allegedly) suffer from gender identity disorder have to relieve themselves by using their gender-specific excretory organs? If someone who self-identifies as female is physiologically male, why should that person use the women's room rather than the men's room? Urinals were designed for a certain anatomy. That's not just a matter of what sex as "assigned" at birth.
I'll answer that question if you define what you mean by "mentally ill", because I have a feeling we'll probably disagree on that anyway. I believe that the experience of gender dysphoria is supported by the scientific consensus, and that it's medical fact - see my response to CR below.
DeleteIs there a good reason to require gendered bathrooms in the first place? If there is, is there a good reason to forbid people who identify and/or present as gender X from using gender X's bathroom?
Is there a good reason to require gendered bathrooms in the first place?
DeleteIsn't it obvious? Public restrooms don't have cameras. Nor do they always have many people inside them who can help defend you if you're mugged or sexually assaulted (abducted or childnapped). It's a place where you can *literally* be caught with your pants down. Defending yourself with your pants or skirt near your ankles is very difficult. You can't block or kick with your legs or feet. You can't even run. Females, the physically weaker sex, shouldn't have to fear being raped or mugged on account of a stupid law that requires physical males to be allowed to use the same restrooms. This is common sense.
Conan O'Brien had a funny segment on it HERE.
Species dysphoria is also recognized, so where are the special protections for the otherkin and therian communities?
ReplyDeleteCan you cite any reason to recognise that a human being can have a brain that resembles a cat's brain? Because I'm going to give you just six (of many) studies which directly indicate that transgender people have differently structured brains which give rise to the dysphoric relationship between biological sex and gender identity:
Deletehttp://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/7477289
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10843193
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11826131
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15724806
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16140461
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16870186
The experience of transgender people of a dissonance between the gender imposed onto them by their biological sex and the actual gender by which they identify is not just a thing we've decided to prefer over (apparently voluntary) transethnicity - it's a physical reality about human beings.
Can you also elaborate on your claim that transgender people are being granted special protections?
@ixius
Delete"I'm going to give you just six (of many) studies which directly indicate that transgender people have differently structured brains which give rise to the dysphoric relationship between biological sex and gender identity:"
I'm under some time constraints at the moment, so I may revisit this if I have time, but I'll just quickly point out that citing any number of studies doesn't necessarily indicate anything at all. It may or may not. Studies could be poorly designed studies, they could be biased studies, they could be missing important data, they could have too small of a sample size, they could have low statistical power, too many participants may have dropped out of the study, the results may be inconclusive or otherwise debatable, there are differences in evidence between say a case report vs. a randomized controlled trial, and on and on and on.
People can check out Dr. John Ioannidis' work to see what I mean and much more besides. (Here is an article about him.)
DeleteSure. This was a challenging issue for me to understand as well, so I understand that you aren't going to be swayed by the mere linking-to of studies which support my position.
DeletePerhaps you can show me a reason to believe I should belittle the actual problems that trans people experience in the way steve does. At the very least, if we agree to set aside the scientific support for the reality of gender identity disorder, the position we're left in is one where we can't justify enforcing or imposing identity on others.
@ixius
Delete"Sure. This was a challenging issue for me to understand as well"
I never said it was challenging for me to understand.
"so I understand that you aren't going to be swayed by the mere linking-to of studies which support my position."
I didn't say I was or wasn't swayed.
"Perhaps you can show me a reason to believe I should belittle the actual problems that trans people experience in the way steve does."
Once again, I didn't make a single remark one way or the other on this.
"At the very least, if we agree to set aside the scientific support for the reality of gender identity disorder"
Yet again, I don't see where I gave reason to warrant broaching an agree-disagree counterfactual scenario about "set[ting] aside scientific support."
At most, I've asked people to vet studies for themselves. But this cuts both ways.
"the position we're left in is one where we can't justify enforcing or imposing identity on others."
That's a bit ironic coming from someone who keeps putting words in my mouth.
ixius
Delete"I'm going to give you just six (of many) studies which directly indicate that transgender people have differently structured brains which give rise to the dysphoric relationship between biological sex and gender identity…The experience of transgender people of a dissonance between the gender imposed onto them by their biological sex and the actual gender by which they identify is not just a thing we've decided to prefer over (apparently voluntary) transethnicity - it's a physical reality about human beings."
i) Historically, the defense of trans people appealed to gender nominalism. You, by contrast, are defending trans people by appeal to gender realism or gender essentialism. So which is it? Is gender socially constructed or hard wired?
BTW, that's a problem when social activists begin with a political agenda, then look for scientific evidence to prove their foregone conclusion.
ii) Even on scientific grounds, there are scientific studies disputing your appeal. For instance:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21467211
http://www.annelawrence.com/twr/brain-sex_critique.html
iii) Another problem is whether refereed journals will even allow the publication of politically incorrect studies that question the (alleged) biological basis of gender dysphoria.
iv) You're defending trans people on the grounds that they have defective brains. Isn't that pretty demeaning?
v) Keep in mind, too, that legal definitions aren't based on brain scans or autopsied brains but whether an individual "self-identifies" as whatever gender.
"Can you also elaborate on your claim that transgender people are being granted special protections?"
Under statutory law (or EEOC regulations), they are treated as a protected class. By definition, that entitles them to special protections not granted to ordinary citizens, viz. aggravated penalties for "hate speech" or "hate crimes."
ixius
Delete"I'm going to give you just six (of many) studies which directly indicate that transgender people have differently structured brains which give rise to the dysphoric relationship between biological sex and gender identity."
On the face of it, the studies are viciously circular. How do researchers know that they are examining transgendered brains in the first place? Unless they already know that the test-subjects are transgender, and that neurological differences are what distinguish gendered from transgendered brains, they are assuming what they need to prove.
How do they recruit test-subjects? Are these test-subjects who "self-identify" as transgendered? But whether or not that has a basis in fact is the very issue in dispute. Researchers can't take that as a given.
They need independent physical evidence to distinguish gendered from transgender test-subjects before they can compare and contrast their brains.
This is a good argument because it trades on the difference between subjective versus objective differences.
ReplyDeleteWhat I find interesting is the difference between ethnic and gender disparities. Some observations along these lines:
1) There is a difference between genetic heritage and cultural nurturing and the term "ethnic" can be used loosely to refer to either one. The concept of transethnicity by adoption is flawed in that it conflates the two.
2) If a male of one genetic ethnicity mates with a female of another ethnicity, their children will be of a mixed ethnicity.
3) By contrast, if a male mates with a female, their children will be either male or female, not a blend of the two. (Genetic hermaphroditism is due to a flaw in the genetic pairing. The exception should not determine the rule.)
4) That said, so-called transethnicity doesn't leave a person sterile, although a genetically European male-female couple who self-identify as Asian will not reproduce genetically Asian children.
5) By contrast, transgenderism doesn't yield people who can reproduce using the physiology of their target gender. (At least, I know of no transplanted genitalia that have been capable of reproduction as of yet. If so, then we have a chimera of sorts - reproductive organs genetically distinct from their host.)
I always appreciate your thoughts, Jim. Several intriguing thoughts!
DeleteThanks, Patrick. I have a couple of others to add as I continue to think through this:
Delete6) The observations I made beg the question of a teleology inherent in the physical order.
7) To deny the natural teleology requires one to borrow from a non-naturalistic worldview. (Sounds like Van Til.) In other words there has to be something other than the physical world to explain a desire to defeat merely physical purposes on the basis of self-perception.
8) But the logic of that is conditional rather than equivalent. That is to say that arguing FOR adherence to natural teleology, as you or I might do, doesn't require us to borrow from a naturalistic worldview. We can recognize natural teleology from metaphysical pluralism.
9) One may argue that self-perception is itself physical. However:
a) If one is intelligent enough to argue that, then knowing the difference between physical teleology and self-perception is enough to demonstrate that self-perception that is incongruous with physical teleology isn't the true cause of the desire.
b) The conflation between physical teleology and self-perception in transgenderism is similar to the conflation between genetic ethnicity and cultural nurturing in transethnicity. Both generate confusion rather than clarity.
i. Note that in the argument over gender differences, those who promote gender equality attempt to negate the differences between gender, while often simultaneously promoting the idea that the genders are different enough for someone to be one gender by feel like another.
ii. Differences in gender are typically manifested in cultural sensibilities. While these are linked to the physical teleology of gender, the idea of feeling like one gender or another is aligned with the cultural manifestations (sexual deviancy notwithstanding) over and against physical reality.
And with that, I think I've come around full circle here.