A
couple of weeks ago, Turretinfan posted an article about me by the title, Comparing
My Brother to Abraham and Elisha.
I’m going to reproduce it in its entirety here; the
associated image is a screen capture of a discussion that I later had about it
with Dave Armstrong:
One of my brethren recently has
been criticized by a number of people because he did not accept one or more
gifts. There is a lot more that could be
said about people whose pride is offended when their gifts are refused, but my
brother's own attitude was the thing that caught my eye. It reminded me of this:
Genesis 14:22-24
And Abram said to the king of
Sodom, I have lift up mine hand unto the LORD, the most high God, the possessor
of heaven and earth, that I will not take from a thread even to a shoelatchet,
and that I will not take any thing that
is thine, lest thou shouldest say, I have made Abram rich: save only that
which the young men have eaten, and the portion of the men which went with me,
Aner, Eshcol, and Mamre; let them take their portion.
I suppose I could have thought
instead of another gift refusal:
2 Kings 5:15-16 & 26-27
And he returned to the man of God,
he and all his company, and came, and stood before him: and he said, Behold,
now I know that there is no God in all the earth, but in Israel: now therefore,
I pray thee, take a blessing of thy servant. But he said, As the LORD liveth,
before whom I stand, I will receive none.
And he urged him to take it; but he
refused.
...
And he said unto him, Went not
mine heart with thee, when the man turned again from his chariot to meet thee? Is it a time to receive money, and to
receive garments, and oliveyards, and vineyards, and sheep, and oxen, and
menservants, and maidservants? The leprosy therefore of Naaman shall cleave
unto thee, and unto thy seed for ever. And he went out from his presence a
leper as white as snow.
Is my brother Abraham or
Elisha? Obviously not. His circumstances differ, as do the
circumstances of his refusal. That said,
I think that only a Biblically illiterate person could think that there cannot
be good reasons for refusing gifts.
-TurretinFan
Dave removed the discussion with him and me (which got into
a bit of personal sniping and which, no doubt, he thought reflected badly with
him). Nevertheless, note Turretinfan’s statement, and then see the comment from
Dave Armstrong as to the conclusion he draws from it.
For those Roman Catholics who follow Dave Armstrong, what do
you think, when Turretinfan asks and answers, “Is my brother Abraham or
Elisha? Obviously not.” And then Dave
draws the double conclusion, “You [John
Bugay] are Father Abraham, and I am the king of Sodom.”
Better double check his work.
Mr. Bugay, do you think that it conforms to your calling as a Christian to proffer an unkindness in return for another perceived unkindness?
ReplyDeleteGod bless!
OTOH, put me down on the "telling the truth to those steeped in error and who rip you relentlessly in exchange is itself kindness" side of the ballot.
ReplyDeletePaul Hoffer, can you honestly say that you hold Dave to the same standard that you hold me? Especially given that Dave has access to "the fullnesss of the faith", and I have somewhat cut myself off from such largesse from "the Holy Church"? Should you not even have some additional forebearance for such an "invincibly ignorant" person as I am?
ReplyDeleteNotice how Hoffer uses faux turning-the-cheek rhetoric as just another weapon to deploy against Protestant critics of Catholicism. Hoffer can turn the other cheek while twisting the knife with equal dexterity. Simultaneous back-stabbing and cheek-turning.
ReplyDeleteMr. Bugay, if you had looked at my comments reminding all to focus on arguments and not on persons over at his blog and the fact that he took down many of the ocmments that were attacking you personally as opposed to your arguments, you would have the answer to your question.
ReplyDeleteThat said, you are not invincibly ignorant. You claim to know the Gospel. You as well as I have an obligation to share it. But more than that, we have an obligation to live it as well. I know I fall short of the mark many times, and I know it is difficult to do that partiularly in apologetic endeavors, but nevertheless we must try. Why not return the kindness that he showed you by the removal of those comments with a bit of charity yourself?
Rhology: I have no problem with "telling the truth to those steeped in error." But the apostle tells us how to offer such truth:
And the Lord's servant must not be quarrelsome but kind to everyone, able to teach, patiently enduring evil, correcting his opponents with gentleness. God may perhaps grant them repentance leading to a knowledge of the truth, and they may come to their senses and escape from the snare of the devil, after being captured by him to do his will." 2 Tim. 2:24-26
Am I to understand that you don't want people to respond to the Gospel? Is that why you denigrate them and attempt to cast them as poorly of a light as possible? Or is it that your bible has the parts about treating others wit kindness and gentleness redacted because such concepts are foreign to Reformed theology?
Or to put it another way Rhology since you are planning to go to Europe and evangelize, how do you plan to reach out to others if you never extend your arm in friendship or in reconcilation?
The Bible should be used to be preached from, not to beat others over the head with.
God bless!
You are hardly in the same position as most, Mr. Hoffer. Neither is HWMNBN.
ReplyDeleteThe sooner you realise that, the better for your soul. Y'all two are more like wolves attacking the henhouse and harassing the shepherds.
PAUL HOFFER SAID:
ReplyDelete"Am I to understand that you don't want people to respond to the Gospel? Is that why you denigrate them and attempt to cast them as poorly of a light as possible? Or is it that your bible has the parts about treating others wit kindness and gentleness redacted because such concepts are foreign to Reformed theology? "
Catholics have such an inexhaustible capacity for self-deception. Notice how Hoffer turns a blind eye to Armstrong's antics:
http://socrates58.blogspot.com/2006/11/anti-catholicism-index-page.html
http://socrates58.blogspot.com/2009/09/contra-catholicism-featuring.html
Paul, I am more than happy for Dave's readers and non-readers to see how Dave operates. Maybe I should send this to his pastor, too, eh?
ReplyDeleteAnd seriously, are you trying to say Dave "addressed my arguments" in his five or six posts about me? Not to mention his various addenda? In fact, I recall Dave NOT having time to address my "ridiculous" arguments about the nonexistent early papacy. Did you ask Dave to take down his Three Stooges video? How about your own extensive documentation of some of my blogging activities?
I have not been unkind to anyone through this. My conscience is clear. I am not sure you could say the same.
Mr. Bugay, as far as whether you feel Mr. Armstrong has treated you with unkindness that is for you to decide. As far as my blogging activities go, as Rhology says, we should present the truth and confront error. If I attacked your views, it was because I saw that they were in error as is taught by the Catholic Church. But tell me when I have attacked you as a person or your ability to do your job or your famiy as some have done here on this blog and elsewhere. If I have, I am sorry. I do not claim to be perfect or a saint; the only claim I can make that as a Christian I am a work in progress. How about you?
ReplyDeleteMr. Hays: Notice how Hoffer uses faux turning-the-cheek rhetoric as just another weapon to deploy against Protestant critics of Catholicism. Hoffer can turn the other cheek while twisting the knife with equal dexterity. Simultaneous back-stabbing and cheek-turning.
Me: Even if were such were true (and it is not), does that give you license as a Christian to return unkindness for unkindness. Does the Gospel say, "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you" or is your Gospel edited to include an exception clause for Catholic apologists you don't like? You accused me of being a hatchet man once, show me where the axe fell you whited sepulchre.
I have said my piece. You can make sport of me all you want now. Show the world what kind of Christians you are. Then I would ask your readers to compare my words with yours.
God bless!
PAUL HOFFER SAID:
ReplyDelete"Mr. Bugay, as far as whether you feel Mr. Armstrong has treated you with unkindness that is for you to decide."
No, you have an obligation as well. You have a duty to apply a uniform standard, and not excuse your teammates.
"Even if were such were true (and it is not), does that give you license as a Christian to return unkindness for unkindness."
It goes to the question of your sincerity. Do you actually believe what you say? Or is this just a polemical tactic you use? A calculated ploy?
"...show me where the axe fell you whited sepulchre."
Gee, sound like you're "returning unkindness for unkindness."
Both Paul Hoffer and Dave Armstrong are bad men who imagine they are good men. That's not unusual. Bad men often have a high opinion of their own motives. And Catholicism reinforces that self-deception.
"Both Paul Hoffer and Dave Armstrong are bad men who imagine they are good men. That's not unusual. Bad men often have a high opinion of their own motives."
ReplyDeleteFor anyone familiar with the blog posts of Steve Hays, it is clear that the kettle is calling the pot black.
What a show of arrogance by the way.
Mr. Hays,
ReplyDeleteYou wrote: [Y]ou have an obligation as well. You have a duty to apply a uniform standard, and not excuse your teammates.
Me: I am aware of my obligations and when I see a fellow Catholic engaging in conduct that crosses the line, I do discuss the matter with them. I hope others do me that kindness as well. Dave has counseled me in the past when I have gone overboard, and likewise I have done the same. What you are complaining about is that I don't publicize each and every personal discussion. If you were to look at my last posting at Beggars All (which contains my comment over at Dave's blog before he took down a number of comments because they were uncharitable towards Mr. Bugay and Mr. Swan.), you would see that I do pipe up when I perceive that folks have crossed the line. (Now mind you, I do not read everything that is written there. Example: I didn't see that Dave made a Three Stooges video about Mr. Bugay's early papacy papers. I hope it did justice to my favorite comedic actors. Maybe, he will do one of me someday.)
Now that you have complained about the splinter in my eye, all you have to do Mr. Hays is show me an instance where you have ever corrected your fellows here in regards to something said about a Catholic apologist.
You wrote: It goes to the question of your sincerity. Do you actually believe what you say? Or is this just a polemical tactic you use? A calculated ploy?
Me: I have noted a recent example where I have done exactly what you are claiming that I do not do. But more importantly, if you wish to call yourself a Christian, does my conduct really matter? Does 2 Tim. 2:24-26 contain an exception clause? Or is playing Christian a part time pastime for you?
You quoted me: "...show me where the axe fell you whited sepulchre."
Gee, sound like you're "returning unkindness for unkindness."
Me: A rebuke is not an unkindness when it true. When I observe your actions, Mr. Hays, I do not see Jesus, I do not see a Christian, I only see an empty tomb. That is something I have very rarely said about anyone in my life. Now that is my burden-my sin-my shortcoming, true, but you certainly do nothing to alter that perception and that is to your shame.
But I note that you avoided answering the question, you accused me in the past of axe- wielding and now you have accused me of knife-work. Considering that it seems your weapon of choice is poison-a coward's weapon-I guess I should count it a honor to be so insulted. But tell me, sir, in whose head did I place the axe, in whose back did I place the knife?
You wrote: Both Paul Hoffer and Dave Armstrong are bad men who imagine they are good men. That's not unusual. Bad men often have a high opinion of their own motives. And Catholicism reinforces that self-deception.
Me: I do not have any illusions about me being a sinner. As far as whether I am a good or a bad man, you have not shown me that you have either the mental or moral capacity to judge that. But, in truth, your comments are an evasion. When one is a Christian, does another's poor behavior determine yours? Is being a Christian something that you can turn on and off like a switch?
I may fall short of my own standards, but at least I am humble enough to admit that, yet Christian enough to acknowledge that I have a standard. Do you?
God bless!
Holdon said:
ReplyDelete"For anyone familiar with the blog posts of Steve Hays, it is clear that the kettle is calling the pot black."
I'm familiar with Steve Hays' posts. But I'd beg to differ with your characterization.
In fact, I don't ever recall Hays defending his own reputation or the like. I don't recall him ever worrying about what people think of him or don't think of him. Rather I suppose he's too focused on the truth of the argument to be concerned about himself.
"What a show of arrogance by the way."
In response I'd like to point out what C.S. Lewis wrote in Mere Christianity: "In fact, if you want to find out how proud you are the easiest way is to ask yourself, 'How much do I dislike it when other people snub me, or refuse to take any notice of me, or shove their oar in, or patronise me, or show off?'"
Paul Hoffer said:
ReplyDelete"A rebuke is not an unkindness when it true."
Hm, bracketing other problems for the moment, couldn't Hays simply respond to you with your own statement here? Can't you simply read what he wrote to you as a "rebuke" in the same way I take it you're "rebuking" him now?
Paul Hoffer said:
ReplyDelete"When I observe your actions, Mr. Hays, I do not see Jesus, I do not see a Christian, I only see an empty tomb."
Well, I doubt you've ever met Hays in real life. If so, how can you judge him and say such harsh words ("That is something I have very rarely said about anyone in my life") based solely on how you perceive him to be online?
Paul Hoffer said:
ReplyDelete"I may fall short of my own standards, but at least I am humble enough to admit that, yet Christian enough to acknowledge that I have a standard. Do you?"
The Bible is the standard. What has Hays said which is contrary to the Bible? Perhaps Hays has upset your moral or emotional sensibilities. But are your moral or emotional sensibilities biblical in the first place?
Do Christians go around telling others they're "humble" as you do here?
"Roman Catholics: Better Double-Check Two-Faced Dave Armstrong"
ReplyDeleteSeems like a reasonable suggestion.
PAUL HOFFER SAID:
ReplyDelete“What you are complaining about is that I don't publicize each and every personal discussion.”
So you have one standard for Bugay and a very different standard (or lack thereof) for Armstrong. Thanks, once again, for proving my point.
“Now that you have complained about the splinter in my eye, all you have to do Mr. Hays is show me an instance where you have ever corrected your fellows here in regards to something said about a Catholic apologist.”
Give me one good example of where I need to correct one of “my fellows here.”
“A rebuke is not an unkindness when it true.”
If Bugay does it, that’s returning evil for evil–but if you do it, that’s a kindly rebuke.
You keep illustrating the fact that Catholicism lobotomizes moral discernment.
“Does 2 Tim. 2:24-26 contain an exception clause?”
Well, to judge by how the author of 2 Timothy conducted himself, it sure looks that way:
“9But Saul, who was also called Paul, filled with the Holy Spirit, looked intently at him 10and said, ‘You son of the devil, you enemy of all righteousness, full of all deceit and villainy, will you not stop making crooked the straight paths of the Lord? 11And now, behold, the hand of the Lord is upon you, and you will be blind and unable to see the sun for a time.’ Immediately mist and darkness fell upon him, and he went about seeking people to lead him by the hand” (Acts 13:9-11).
Continuing with Hoffer:
“When I observe your actions, Mr. Hays, I do not see Jesus.”
If you want to see Jesus, read the Gospels.
“I do not see a Christian, I only see an empty tomb.”
Another example of your “kindness,” unlike Bugay’s (alleged) “unkindness.”
“That is something I have very rarely said about anyone in my life.”
Because you’re used to seeing Jesus in bagels?
“But tell me, sir, in whose head did I place the axe, in whose back did I place the knife?”
John Bugay.
“Is being a Christian something that you can turn on and off like a switch?”
Like Cardinal Law?
“I may fall short of my own standards, but at least I am humble enough to admit that.”
What you do is make little throwaway concessions.
BTW, humility doesn’t advertise itself.
humility doesn’t advertise itself.
ReplyDeleteMine does.
Well, Alan, I'm *way* humbler than you are, and I've got the badges to prove it. I keep them in glass cases for house guests to see. It's a humbling experience just to be around somebody as humble as me.
ReplyDeleteGreater things have yet to come! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KEL9EywBcXQ
ReplyDeleteWith love in Christ,
Pete
Greater things have yet to come! :)
ReplyDeletehttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KEL9EywBcXQ
With love in Christ,
Pete