Sunday, December 13, 2009

Is Francis Beckwith Saved?

In another thread, Truth Unites... and Divides asked about the salvation of Francis Beckwith. Since the subject of whether individuals are saved comes up a lot, and an Evangelical revert to Catholicism is an example of a case that can be hard to judge, I thought I'd post my response in a new thread. Hopefully, some readers will find my assessment helpful in thinking through these issues. This post isn't meant to be exhaustive, but rather to help people understand some of the issues involved and to help them sort through those issues. Much more could be said than I'll be saying below.

A case like Francis Beckwith's involves multiple lines of evidence pointing in different directions. And I'm ignorant of a lot of the relevant information. I appreciate his material on abortion and other topics and have sometimes read or otherwise used his material, but I haven't studied his writings on Roman Catholicism much. I'm using him as an example here because I was asked about him and because he's an example of a case that seems difficult to judge, not because I'm highly knowledgeable about his circumstances. Other people could make a better judgment than I can.

When somebody has a high degree of exposure to the gospel, as Americans do, and has at some point professed Christian faith in the context of Evangelicalism, as Beckwith did, those are significant factors that increase the plausibility of an individual's salvation.

He seems to live by high moral standards. That reflects well on him and is a relevant factor in evaluating a person's profession of faith.

He clearly accepts the large majority of the most important truths of the gospel (Jesus' Messiahship, the resurrection, etc.). That's significant.

People who are Christians sometimes later become unfaithful to the gospel temporarily, as we see with Peter and the Galatians in the New Testament. (And Paul anticipated such unfaithfulness as a possibility with the Corinthians, as we see in 2 Corinthians 11.) People are often inconsistent. They hold inconsistent beliefs at the same time or change beliefs from one period of their life to another. They contradict themselves knowingly, as they waver between two views, or unknowingly. A person can throw himself entirely on the mercy of God, like the tax collector of Luke 18, without having a high level of knowledge about doctrines like justification through faith alone and imputed righteousness. Even though he's seeking justification through faith alone, he isn't giving that fact and its implications much thought. People can have a mixture of good and bad motives, wanting to defend a bad decision they've made (such as reverting to Catholicism), even though, at the same time, they want to be right with God and understand a doctrine like justification correctly. They have conflicting desires.

John Duncan is said to have remarked, regarding some elements in Charles Wesley's hymns that seemed inconsistent with Wesley's Arminianism, "Where's your Arminianism now, friend?". I think a similar question can be asked of many people who profess to reject justification through faith alone. It's so obvious that we have to approach God like the tax collector in Luke 18, without works, and people are surrounded with reminders of that fact in a nation like the United States, where there's such easy access to Bibles, Evangelical churches and other Evangelical ministries, etc. Many people who profess some form of justification through works at some point in their life are brought to a more realistic view of things by something they experience later in life. The absurdity of justification through works is difficult to live with, and many people who profess belief in such a false gospel could be asked, in a time of difficulty or on their deathbed, "Where's your works righteousness now, friend?". Thankfully, the gospel is, in that sense, easy to understand and appealing. There's reason to think that more people accept justification through faith alone than explicitly say so, especially in a nation like the United States. Where a person lives is under God's sovereignty, and we ought to take it into account when judging the likelihood of a person's salvation and what God has planned for that individual's life.

On the other hand, sin blinds people. Even something that should be easily understood and appealing is often not understood or is rejected. People living in a nation like the United States can be, and often are, ignorant of the gospel or reject it. And Francis Beckwith has a significant level of knowledge about the relevant issues. He's an adult. He's well-educated. He has access to a lot of sources with relevant information. He made a decision to return to Catholicism and has remained Catholic after being reminded of the false nature of the Catholic gospel many times and by many people. His decisions to revert to Catholicism and remain Catholic under such circumstances are evidence against his profession of Christian faith. And his unfaithfulness to the gospel is worse than Peter's and the Galatians' in some ways. (Peter's error seems to have been less explicit, the Galatians apparently accepted Paul's correction, whereas we don't know whether Beckwith will change his position in the future, etc.).

He has some things in his favor that other Catholics don't have, such as a background in Evangelicalism. And he's not just an unnamed Catholic. He's a specific individual about whom I have some significant information. I have a general idea of what his beliefs and moral conduct are, so the situation is somewhat different than asking about the salvation of a Catholic I know less about. He's clearly not in the same category as some other Catholics, such as those who think all non-Catholics are lost or are more hostile to Evangelicalism in some other way.

Then there are the less objective factors. What do you do with a vague impression about somebody's salvation? That sort of impression doesn't give other people much reason to agree with my assessment, but it is part of what I would take into account in forming my own opinion.

What conclusion does the balance of evidence point to? I'm too ignorant of the relevant facts, and have given the subject too little thought, to reach a confident conclusion. I'm not Francis Beckwith's father, spouse, or best friend. I don't know him nearly as well as some other people do or as well as he knows himself. But I think it makes sense for somebody coming from my perspective to at least conclude that his salvation is a reasonable possibility. I hope he's saved or will be in the future, and I would be glad to meet him in Heaven. My sense is that his salvation is probable, though by a small margin, due partly to my limited knowledge. However, his errors are serious, and they deserve criticism and some degree of separation from him, even if one is confident that he's saved. He's in a category similar to that of Peter and the Galatians at best. If he's saved, it's by an Evangelical gospel (the Biblical gospel), in spite of the false gospel he's currently associated with.

82 comments:

  1. HA!

    So he is probably saved but by only a small margin.

    Whew. Somebody should tell him.

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  2. Blogahon wrote:

    "So he is probably saved but by only a small margin."

    That's not what I said. I was referring to the limits of my own knowledge, not the degree by which Beckwith was saved.

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  4. Jason -His decisions to revert to Catholicism and remain Catholic under such circumstances are evidence against his profession of Christian faith. And his unfaithfulness to the gospel is worse than Peter's and the Galatians' in some ways.

    Vytautas- From the above you it would follow that that person is not saved. A denial of the gospel would show that. Yet there is a chance that Beckwith is saved, since he believes in the fundamentals of the faith. But would good is that in light of his denial of justification?

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  6. This is without a doubt the most depressing and ridiculous discussion I've seen in a very long time.

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  7. Vytautus wrote:

    "From the above you it would follow that that person is not saved. A denial of the gospel would show that."

    Why? A person can believe the gospel, then be unfaithful to it, as Peter and the Galatians were. If you're going to say that the unfaithfulness can only go so far, and that Beckwith or somebody else has gone past that limit, then where are you getting that limit?

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  8. Here's my response:
    http://romereturn.blogspot.com/2009/12/i-may-be-saved.html

    By the way, when you finally discover my posthumous fate, please tell me. I've been dying to know.

    Merry Christmas.

    FJB

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  9. Blogahon wrote:

    "This is without a doubt the most depressing and ridiculous discussion I've seen in a very long time."

    I agree that your contribution has been ridiculous, but you'll have to make an argument for that assessment of the rest of the thread.

    Surely you don't disagree that there are contexts in which people should make judgments about the salvation of others. And surely you don't deny that factors like a person's moral behavior and theology are relevant to such evaluations. Such subjects can be difficult to discuss and difficult to discern at times, yet still be worth addressing. What's your alternative? Ignoring the issues? Adopting some sort of ecumenism that you haven't given us any reason to accept? Should we just assume that every human being is saved, so as to avoid being "depressing" and "ridiculous"?

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  10. I am fairly certain that a bunch of self righteous young guys sitting around and staring at their navels while publicly questioning a man's salvation, a man who bends the knee at the name of Jesus, isn't the proper context.

    I am certain that I am not the only person who finds this display vomit inducing.

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  11. Truth Unites... and Divides wrote:

    "So then, the 'false gospel' of Hinduism and Scientology must be distinguished from the 'false gospel of Roman Catholicism and Eastern Orthodoxy. Because in some Religious systems, their False Gospel damns all the time, but in the RCC and EOC, their False Gospel doesn't damn their members all the time."

    Hinduism and Scientology are further from the truth, so you could say that they're more false. But I think you're misunderstanding what Paul wrote in Galatians. The context suggests that Paul has in mind people who never accepted the true gospel. All they've accepted is a false gospel. He's addressing those who have a false gospel without any qualification. But if you add the qualification that a person accepted the true gospel previously, then Paul's response would be qualified accordingly. That's why he doesn't treat the Galatians the same way he treats the false teachers who were misleading them.

    Some alternatives would be to maintain that Paul allows for the salvation of the Galatians because they weren't teachers or because they didn't do anything to advance the false gospel in question. But neither seems likely. The Galatians would have had teachers, just as other churches do (bishops, deacons, etc.). And it's doubtful that they remained silent about the false gospel influencing them. How would Paul and others find out about the Galatians' acceptance of a false gospel if the Galatians were silent about the issue? I think the most natural reading of Galatians is that at least a majority of the Galatians accepted the false gospel, which probably would have included at least some members of their leadership, and they communicated their acceptance of that false gospel to other people. Paul had reason to believe that they had accepted the true gospel previously, though, so he approaches them differently than he would approach a Judaizer who had never accepted the gospel.

    This may be relevant to what Vytautas was asking as well. I agree with you, Vytautas, that a person must come to God through faith alone in order to be justified, as illustrated in Luke 18:10-14. I wasn't suggesting that somebody like Francis Beckwith should be considered a Christian without such evidence. Rather, I'm suggesting that there can be evidence that somebody accepted the true gospel, then departed from it later in life. A later departure would be evidence that the person was never justified to begin with, but not conclusive evidence. It would be possible for a person to be unfaithful to the gospel after accepting it, as we see with Peter and the Galatians and elsewhere in scripture. Similarly, even though behavior like idolatry, murder, or adultery would be evidence against a person's salvation, we still think somebody like David or Solomon could have been saved in spite of such sins, because of mitigating factors.

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  12. Blogahon wrote:

    "I am fairly certain that a bunch of self righteous young guys sitting around and staring at their navels while publicly questioning a man's salvation, a man who bends the knee at the name of Jesus, isn't the proper context. I am certain that I am not the only person who finds this display vomit inducing."

    In other words, you can judge us to be "self-righteous" and propose your own criterion for judging others' salvation ("bending the knee at the name of Jesus"), but we shouldn't make judgments based on our criteria. That makes no sense.

    Do you think the Judaizers were orthodox as long as they "bent the knee at the name of Jesus"? Since you're a Catholic, do you find Catholic documents like the decrees of Trent "vomit inducing", since they anathematize people for errors other than not "bending the knee at the name of Jesus"? If that's the only relevant criterion, then why have church fathers, Popes, councils, and other sources you supposedly would hold in high regard judged other people's salvation by criteria other than your own?

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  13. Judging this to be a self righteous display, which it is, is not even remotely like me saying that you are going to hell.

    I am certain there are many self righteous individuals in heaven, by the grace of God.

    Several guys sitting around their computers and postulating is not an ecumenical council of the Catholic Church.

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  15. Blogahon wrote:

    "Judging this to be a self righteous display, which it is"

    Because you say so? Where's your argument?

    You go on:

    "Several guys sitting around their computers and postulating is not an ecumenical council of the Catholic Church."

    Which doesn't change the fact that the council I cited, Trent, utilized different standards than you suggested in your earlier post. If you want to follow Trent, then you'd better expand your criteria beyond "bending the knee at the name of Jesus".

    And just as you claim that Trent gives you criteria by which to make these judgments, I claim that scripture gives me my criteria. Your objection is absurd. Every one of your posts in this thread so far has been irrational.

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  16. Truth Unites... and Divides wrote:

    "Jason, in addition to the church in Galatia, would the churches and the people in those churches which are referenced in Revelations 2 and 3 be additional data points for consideration and discussion about true and false gospels, and true and false churches, and saved people and damned people?"

    We'd have to make case-by-case judgments. Some errors are minor. Some are moderate. Some are major, but not a matter of essential importance. And others are essential. You have to look at the issues involved, the language used, and the other relevant evidence in each case.

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  17. I imagine that many medieval RCs might have been saved precisely because they were ignorant rustics and did not know enough to be really corrupted by Romish additions to the gospel - additions that more knowledgeable city slickers would have known better. Such types would have just had childlike trust in Christ and His work.

    My point is that "the only good Roman Catholic is a "bad" Roman Catholic", a person who does not consistently believe all that his religion teaches.

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  18. Whereas Beckwith might be damned just by his great knowledge - as he is "sinning against the light."

    To whom much has been given, much is required, knowledgeable servants shall gets many stripes, and teachers shall receive greater condemnation than others, like that favorite RC book of James says.

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  19. Augustine was a brilliant thinker, but he erred badly on Justification, and he laid the theological foundation for torture and the inquisition.

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  20. BLOGAHON SAID:

    “I am fairly certain that a bunch of self righteous young guys…”

    Considering the fact that I turned 50 this year, I’ll take that as a compliment.

    “Sitting around and staring at their navels…”

    Since it’s too cool in mid-December for me to go around topless, my navel is presently out of sight.

    “Several guys sitting around their computers…”

    Didn’t you type this comment on a computer keyboard? Didn’t Beckwith type his comment on a computer keyboard?

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  21. Francis J. Beckwith said...

    “By the way, when you finally discover my posthumous fate, please tell me. I've been dying to know.”

    When a gentleman sporting a van dyke and whistling "Le veau d'or" shows up at your deathbed waving a contract in your face and demanding his cut, that will be your cue.

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  22. Wow..thank you so much for that.
    I was really struggling with this myself.

    Because he couldn't have been ever chosen to perservere to the end, so he was a fake or perhaps a anti-christ! Maybe an Arminian!!!
    No, he was that horror of horror..a gospel hating, Scripture hating Catholic!!

    But thankfully Our Lord has given you the gift of authority over men's souls and also to discern who is saved and who is not. Clearly you do a wonderful job for the Body of Christ.

    You are sad and to be pitied. You don't even know the "good news" that gives you joy and unites you with Christ. The gospel of Our Lord Jesus Christ was not Calvinist, etc.

    I will pray for you because the truth is...you and all of the other haters of Catholic faith can persecute, bear false witness, and spend all day blogging about your own goodness...but at the end of the day it does no good.

    Just because you all pick all of the flowers in every field...you can never stop Spring from coming....

    May the peace of Christ penetrate your heart and mind completely,
    Teri

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  23. "When a gentleman sporting a van dyke ....."

    Yikes!:

    http://samuelatgilgal.files.wordpress.com/2008/10/john-calvin.jpg

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  24. Thankfully, the church of Rome, unlike those judgmental Prots, is distinguished by its history of tolerance.

    Trent

    So great has been the calamitousness of these times, and such the inveterate malice of the heretics, that there has been nothing ever so clear in our statement of faith, nothing so surely settled, which they, at the instigation of the enemy of the human race, have not defiled by some sort of error. For which cause the holy Synod hath made it Its especial care to condemn and anathematize the principal errors of the heretics of our time, and to deliver and teach the true and Catholic doctrine; even as It has condemned, and anathematized, and decreed.

    http://history.hanover.edu/texts/trent/ct25.html

    Pope Boniface VIII

    We declare, we proclaim, we define that it is absolutely necessary for salvation that every human creature be subject to the Roman Pontiff.

    http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/source/b8-unam.html

    Pope Pius IX

    Hence, if anyone shall dare -- which God forbid! -- to think otherwise than as has been defined by us, let him know and understand that he is condemned by his own judgment; that he has suffered shipwreck in the faith; that he has separated from the unity of the Church; and that, furthermore, by his own action he incurs the penalties established by law if he should dare to express in words or writing or by any other outward means the errors he thinks in his heart.

    http://www.newadvent.org/library/docs_pi09id.htm

    Pope Pius XII

    Hence if anyone, which God forbid, should dare willfully to deny or to call into doubt that which we have defined, let him know that he has fallen away completely from the divine and Catholic Faith.
    It is forbidden to any man to change this, our declaration, pronouncement, and definition or, by rash attempt, to oppose and counter it. If any man should presume to make such an attempt, let him know that he will incur the wrath of Almighty God and of the Blessed Apostles Peter and Paul.

    http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/pius_xii/apost_constitutions/documents/hf_p-xii_apc_19501101_munificentissimus-deus_en.html

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  25. Kissaguard wrote:

    "At the risk of stating the horribly, glaringly obvious: 'For this very reason, Christ died and returned to life so that He might be The Lord of both the dead and the living. You, then, why do you judge your brother? Or why do you look down on your brother? For we will all stand before God's judgment seat. It is written: ''As surely as I live,' says The Lord, 'every knee will bow before Me; every tongue will confess to God.'' 'So then, each of us will give an account of himself to God. Therefore let us stop passing judgment on one another.' (Romans 14:1-13)"

    I hope you realize that the passage you've cited supports what I've done rather than opposing it. How would you know who your "brother" is without making a judgment about who qualifies as such? How do you marry only a Christian if you never make judgments about who is and isn't a Christian? Are you suggesting that we ignore the issue of whether a man is a Christian before appointing him to a church office, such as to be an elder or deacon? After all, we wouldn't want to "pass judgment on one another". If a Buddhist wants to pastor our church, who are we to judge that he isn't a Christian?

    Romans 14 is a passage about relatively minor disagreements that can't be resolved in this life. It's also about having "contempt" for other believers (Romans 14:10). But we are called to make judgments about the salvation of other people elsewhere, even though there are some things we can't know about a person's salvation. We can judge a tree by its fruit (Matthew 7:15-20), even though our probability judgments are fallible. We should be careful and should recognize our limitations and fallibility, and we shouldn't attempt to take God's role in judgment upon ourselves. But making a probability judgment about the salvation of another person, particularly one as heavily qualified as mine above, is acceptable. That sort of thing is common practice in the New Testament and in everyday Christian life. We couldn't function in the Christian life without doing it.

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  26. I have a question for those who are offended by my comments about Francis Beckwith. Are you also offended when a more ecumenical Evangelical judges Beckwith to be a Christian without the more negative qualifications that I added? If somebody like Timothy George or Chuck Colson were to refer to Beckwith as a Christian, would you object? Would you rebuke George or Colson for making a judgment about something he can't know? (By the way, does citing Romans 14 against me qualify as an improper act of judging another person? Or is there a double standard? Are you allowed to judge me, but I can't judge somebody else?)

    I suspect that I would have been criticized no matter how I had responded to the question that was asked by Truth Unites... and Divides. If I had ignored the question, I would have been criticized for that. If I had answered, but had been more positive in my evaluation of Beckwith, I would have been criticized for it. Or if I'd been more negative, I would have been criticized for that.

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  27. So right, kissaguard.

    Here's another insertion of levity: http://romereturn.blogspot.com/2009/12/positively-judgment-street.html

    Enjoy!

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  28. Dear Sir:

    I am Catholic too, and having read your post now find myself in a terribly uncertain state of mind...and soul. If you have time, could you provide a checkup for me as well. Do I need to send you anything for you to complete your analysis...blood sample, Social Security number, IQ test, recitation of the books of the Bible (with or without Apocryphal books???), etc.

    Please help me!!! I anxiously await your response.

    Sincerely...or not ;-)

    K Branson

    P.S. - Have you considered distilling your salvation determination technology into one of those test at home kits, you know, kind of like the pregnancy test strip that you, well, you know. Because I think lots of people might be very interested in...Oh, I better shut up.

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  29. Kissaguard wrote:

    "Ah yes, Matthew 7 . . . that's the one that begins so very clearly, isn't it? Something about judging, and getting the plank out of your eye?"

    Why are you judging me, then?

    I distinguish between righteous and unrighteous judgment (John 7:24), so I'm not being inconsistent by considering judgment an acceptable practice. But if you're going to object to all forms of judgment, then what basis do you have for issuing the sort of judgments against me that you've included in your posts? Or if you don't object to all forms of judgment, then why not explain what you mean? Citing Romans 14 and Matthew 7 and assuming your own interpretation without arguing for it, while ignoring what people write in response to you, doesn't accomplish much.

    You write:

    "Really, though, I'm sorry I posted."

    You say that as you prepare a second post.

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  30. journeytorome wrote:

    "Oh, I better shut up."

    I agree.

    And concerning that judgment kit you refer to, I got it from the same place every Christian does when he's judging whether a potential spouse is a Christian, whether another person is "of the household of the faith" (Galatians 6:10), etc.

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  31. Since it’s too cool in mid-December for me to go around topless, my navel is presently out of sight.

    Hmmm...where could I have possibly learned about staring at navels???

    Oh, I remember. It was from this very blog!

    Imagine that.

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  32. Jason Engwer raises the question of whether Francis Beckwith is saved, and his Catholic fanboys wax indignant. I think they need to brush up on their Tridentine theology:

    ****************

    No one can know with a certainty of faith, which cannot be subject to error, that he has obtained the grace of God.

    If any one saith, that a man, who is born again and justified, is bound of faith to believe that he is assuredly in the number of the predestinate; let him be anathema.

    If any one saith, that he will for certain, of an absolute and infallible certainty, have that great gift of perseverance unto the end,-unless he have learned this by special revelation; let him be anathema.

    http://history.hanover.edu/texts/trent/ct06.html

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  33. I actually think that Jason is in principle correct. There's nothing wrong with making judgments. But, as he rightly implies, they have to been done in a fashion consistent with the letter and spirit of Scripture.

    As far as judging me, I'm not worried. I believe in God's sovereignty, and trust his judgment, which is really the only one that matters when it is all said and done. To quote from the Master, Thomas Aquinas:

    Some have said that none could be blotted out of the book of life as a matter of fact, but only in the opinion of men. For it is customary in the Scriptures to say that something is done when it becomes known. Thus some are said to be written in the book of life, inasmuch as men think they are written therein, on account of the present righteousness they see in them; but when it becomes evident, either in this world or in the next, that they have fallen from that state of righteousness, they are then said to be blotted out. And thus a gloss explains the passage: "Let them be blotted out of the book of the living." But because not to be blotted out of the book of life is placed among the rewards of the just, according to the text, "He that shall overcome, shall thus be clothed in white garments, and I will not blot his name out of the book of life" (Apocalypse 3:5) (and what is promised to holy men, is not merely something in the opinion of men), it can therefore be said that to be blotted out, and not blotted out, of the book of life is not only to be referred to the opinion of man, but to the reality of the fact. For the book of life is the inscription of those ordained to eternal life, to which one is directed from two sources; namely, from predestination, which direction never fails, and from grace; for whoever has grace, by this very fact becomes fitted for eternal life. This direction fails sometimes; because some are directed by possessing grace, to obtain eternal life, yet they fail to obtain it through mortal sin. Therefore those who are ordained to possess eternal life through divine predestination are written down in the book of life simply, because they are written therein to have eternal life in reality; such are never blotted out from the book of life. Those, however, who are ordained to eternal life, not through divine predestination, but through grace, are said to be written in the book of life not simply, but relatively, for they are written therein not to have eternal life in itself, but in its cause only. Yet though these latter can be said to be blotted out of the book of life, this blotting out must not be referred to God, as if God foreknew a thing, and afterwards knew it not; but to the thing known, namely, because God knows one is first ordained to eternal life, and afterwards not ordained when he falls from grace.

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  34. Blogahon,

    You seem to have the same Blogger profile as Sean and Stephanie. Are you the same person (or that person's spouse, child, etc.)? If you're the same person, why are you now posting under a different screen name? You claimed that you were leaving. You said:

    "Since I became an adult about 15 years ago I feel like I have already paid my dues playing childish schoolyard games. You guys can have the playground to yourselves."

    But, apparently, you're still posting here, and your posts resemble "childish schoolyard games".

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  35. Francis Beckwith wrote:

    "I believe in God's sovereignty, and trust his judgment, which is really the only one that matters when it is all said and done."

    I agree. I addressed the subject because somebody asked me to and because I wanted to outline some principles that Christians should apply when making such judgments, which they often have to do (in contexts like the ones I mentioned above). But my judgment is fallible and far less significant than God's.

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  36. Jason,

    9:31 PM. Yes, the Mrs is a zealous believer in internet anonymity and changes it fairly often. You're right I did say that I would leave the school yard.

    Its kind of like watching a train wreck. You know it isn't good for you but its hard to peel away.

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  37. Except when I watch a train wreck my ego and pride aren't getting involved in the process so that it makes me keep coming back to watch again and again all the while telling everyone around me and myself that I'm actually above it all.

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  41. Dave,

    The Judaizers were professing Christians, albeit Jewish-Christians or Messianic Jews. How do you think that identification undercuts Engwer's point, exactly? Indeed, wouldn't that reinforce the parallels between the Pauline anathemas and their application to Catholicism?

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  44. DAVE ARMSTRONG SAID:

    "I worded it wrong. Lemme try again: It undercuts the attempted anti-Catholic polemical parallelism between Catholics and Judaizers, if you concede that the Judaizers were Christians, while our system is not. There goes your parallelism between the two. What fellowship hath darkness and light?"

    Fatally equivocal. "Christian" in what sense? Nominal Christians? Professing Christians? Or genuine Christians?

    In fact, the Judaizers, like many heretics, not only make a profession of faith, but claimed to be the true believers. That's the problem.

    "And while I'm here I'll state that I don't believe that the true Jewish faithful, even in the first century, believed they were saved by works, anymore than we Catholics do. Both charges are distortions of Protestant polemics. N. T. Wright and other Protestant scholars have argued this; no one need take my word on it."

    i) No one's argument that the "true Jewish faithful" believed they were saved by works. The argument, rather, is that a certain percentage of 2nd Temple Jews subscribed to works-righteousness.

    ii) Needless to say, the New Perspective on Paul is hotly contested.

    iii) If, for the sake of argument, you subscribe to the New Perspective on Paul, then that simply undercuts traditional Catholic theology in another direction.

    "Moreover, if the Judaizers are Christians, despite having a different understanding of the relationship of faith and works, or the Jewish Law and the New Covenant..."

    Same fatal equivocation.

    "...then by the same token, Catholics should also still be considered Christians, since we believe in sola gratia as you do, but reject sola fide as an unbiblical innovation."

    You don't subscribe to sola gratia. You may bandy that slogan, but Catholic soteriology is synergistic. You affirm the necessity of grace, but you disaffirm the sufficiency of grace.

    "The fact remains that works are profoundly involved in the salvation (ultimately by grace) in some sense."

    The question at issue is not whether works are "involved" in "salvation" in "some sense"–all of which is hopelessly vague.

    The question, rather, is whether works are justificatory. Salvation is a broader category than justification.

    Protestants don't argue that we're *saved* by faith alone, just that we're *justified* by faith alone. Are you too ignorant to even know the difference?

    "You guys simply ignore this data or act as if it is only in the realm of sanctification and has nothing whatever to do with salvation."

    Once again, you're very sloppy with your use of categories. Both justification and salvation have "something to do with" salvation. This doesn't mean sanctification contributes to justification.

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  47. Dave Armstrong writes:

    "Moreover, if the Judaizers are Christians, despite having a different understanding of the relationship of faith and works, or the Jewish Law and the New Covenant, then by the same token, Catholics should also still be considered Christians, since we believe in sola gratia as you do, but reject sola fide as an unbiblical innovation."

    The Judaizers can be professing Christians without being true Christians. In previous discussions on this blog related to the Manhattan Declaration, we've argued that the Judaizers shouldn't be considered a truly Christian group (Paul argues that their gospel isn't actually a gospel, etc.).

    It's doubtful that they denied the necessity of God's grace. The concept that justification would be gracious was commonly accepted, as it is today by a wide variety of groups that teach that works are a means of justification. Ancient Judaism and Christianity both had a high view of God and a low view of man, suggesting the need for grace. It's doubtful that Paul's opponents would be arguing that they had no need for the grace of God. Thus, Paul can respond to his opponents by arguing that their grace isn't true grace, that their gospel would cause one to fall from grace, etc. If they had no concern about grace, why respond to them in that manner? Where does Paul say that they didn't even profess to need God's grace?

    Paul's focus in Galatians is on the means by which justification is attained (Galatians 3:2), not whether justification is attributed to grace. The idea that one can seek justification through a combination between faith and works, as long as the process is attributed to grace, is a contradiction of what Paul taught. If works are absent from Genesis 15:6, Acts 10:44-46, Galatians 3:2, and other relevant passages, then saying that the works are preceded by and accompanied by grace doesn't make sense. There are no works for grace to accompany in such passages. To make this a matter of whether the works are attributed to grace is to get the gospel fundamentally wrong. There's no need to discuss whether non-existent works are works of grace or graceless works. The gospel shuts us up to faith, not to a combination between faith and gracious works (Galatians 3:21-25).

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  49. Dave Armstrong wrote:

    "Then why are works always central in every discussion of the final judgment that I could find in Scripture (50 passages: linked to above)?"

    The final judgment involves more than the means by which the justified attained that justification. It also involves the means by which the unregenerate are condemned, the vindication of the justified, and the non-justificatory rewarding of those individuals. I wouldn't expect the final judgment to not involve works.

    In the post you're responding to, I cited some examples of passages that are about how we attain justification. They don't just exclude graceless works. They exclude works of any type. Many other such passages could be cited, as I discuss here and here.

    You write:

    "Why is this the case if God is supposedly wanting to completely separate any notion of works or acts from salvation itself?"

    We wouldn't have to know why works are excluded in order to know that they're excluded. But it's a good question, and I addressed it in a post last year.

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  53. Dave Armstrong wrote:

    "But then my question would be: why is the aspect of faith (let alone faith alone so glaringly absent in these 50 accounts of judgment (I think only one mentioned it at all, in my list), if in fact it is THE central, fundamental consideration, according to Protestantism?"

    Central to what? All that the judgment involves? No. The unjustified are condemned for their sins, so works are relevant to their judgment. And the justified are reconciled to God through faith alone (Ephesians 2:8-9) for good works (Ephesians 2:10). The works evidence the faith (vindication), and the works determine non-justificatory rewards. Mentioning works is an effective way of summarizing the judgment, since it brings together so many of the relevant themes.

    Even when a passage only mentions works with regard to the judgment, we have to keep the nearby context in mind. The original authors (or speakers) didn't expect their audience to take their comments in isolation, ignoring the context. Those who hear Jesus speak of works in Matthew 25:31-46 know that He was carrying out a ministry in which He forgave, pronounced peace, and healed people upon their coming to faith (see here). Those who heard Jesus speak of works in John 5:29 would also have known that He spoke of reconciliation through faith and avoidance of condemnation as a result of that faith in John 5:24. Those who believe are assured of the future resurrection of life (John 11:25-26). When Paul says that men will be judged by his gospel (Romans 2:16), he doesn't expect his audience to ignore everything he said about justification through faith and think only of works. Works are relevant, for reasons explained in my last paragraph, but nobody reading Paul in context would think that summarizing statements that only mention works are meant to exclude what Paul said about faith. To ignore the role of faith in his gospel would cause a major distortion of his message. Paul speaks of deliverance from future wrath through Jesus' blood (Romans 5:9) after having said that the deliverance through that blood was received through faith (Romans 5:1). Etc.

    And I point out, again, that citing passages on the final judgment doesn't explain the line of evidence I mentioned earlier. As we see over and over again in Jesus' ministry and Paul's, people are justified through faith alone, as illustrated in the paradigm case of Abraham in Genesis 15:6. There is no issue of whether the works involved are works of grace or graceless works, since works of both types are absent.

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  54. Truth Unites... and Divides,

    In previous discussions about the Manhattan Declaration, you didn't respond to some of the arguments we raised relevant to the issues you just mentioned again. You're repeating some points you made before, but without interacting with what we've already said in response.

    The issue of the history of condemnations of Roman Catholicism's gospel is significant, but isn't the most important issue involved. The Council of Trent disallowed some views of justification that had previously existed and been allowed within regions of the world that we would later identify with Catholicism. And the issue of when Roman Catholicism, as we define it today, came into existence is a disputed point. So, the question of when people began condemning the Roman Catholic gospel as a false gospel needs to take such factors into account.

    Concerning the situation that existed prior to the Reformation, you might want to see here and read my recent Seeds Of The Reformation post. See, also, here.

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  55. Hi Jason,

    Sorry, I’m coming a bit late to the discussion, but I keep thinking over what you said here.

    First, I was a bit surprised by your conclusion that “My sense is that his salvation is probable, though by a small margin”. I understand your reasoning, but yet I disagree in this case. Someone who has defected so prominently from Protestantism to Catholicism does not give me great hope.

    But what you said about the comparison to Peter had me thinking, and here also I am not sure I agree with your comparison. You said “People who are Christians sometimes later become unfaithful to the gospel temporarily, as we see with Peter and the Galatians in the New Testament.” I guess I don’t see Peter’s slip-up in the same way as someone like a Beckwith.

    What I see in Galatians is Peter’s difficulty with breaking with his Jewish background as seen elsewhere. In the book of Acts we see Peter struggling with his Jewish roots and interaction with the Gentiles. Now, if Peter had started to spread the Judaizer’s message, I think you would have a point about people like Beckwith. But all I see in Galatians is Peter withdrawing from the Gentiles and hanging out with the Judaizers, which certainly could give the appearance of approval of their message, but isn’t quite the same as becoming a Judaizer.

    If anything, I would compare the error of Peter with those Protestants who promote Catholicism as true Christians. They aren’t becoming Catholics as they see the errors, but they still see Catholicism as a whole as legitimate denomination. This is kinda where the argument against signing the MD comes in – as Paul needed to correct Peter about his associations, we also need to be very careful about our own associations and the appearance they might give.

    But even if your comparison of Peter in Galatians to someone like Beckwith is legitimate, I would still expect the confusion to be temporary and a bit shallow. I have certainly met people online who had briefly fallen into the error of becoming RC/EO, yet they remained uncomfortable about many aspects and eventually corrected themselves.

    Anyway, I appreciate your caveat that “However, his errors are serious, and they deserve criticism and some degree of separation from him, even if one is confident that he's saved.” Although I disagree with some of what you said, I think you did a very nice job of navigating the difficulties of this topic and as I said, it made me re-think a few things.

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  56. You said, “A person can throw himself entirely on the mercy of God, like the tax collector of Luke 18, without having a high level of knowledge about doctrines like justification through faith alone and imputed righteousness.”

    If a man walked into your church and stated that he in all sincerity “beat his breast and said, 'God, have mercy on me, a sinner,’” would you accept that as a credible profession of faith?

    Thanks.

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  57. Latitude,

    If a Mormon or Jehovah's Witness were to utter those words, would that constitute a credible profession of faith?

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  59. Steve wrote, "If a Mormon or Jehovah's Witness were to utter those words, would that constitute a credible profession of faith?"

    Perhaps you should ask Jason. He is the one who said, "A person can throw himself entirely on the mercy of God, like the tax collector of Luke 18, without having a high level of knowledge about doctrines like justification through faith alone and imputed righteousness.”

    Perhaps he would say that JWs and Mormons don't have a high level of knowledge about doctrines like justification through faith alone and imputed righteousness.

    If a Jew were to state that he threw himself entirely on the mercy of God, would that constitute a credible profession of faith? Do you reject the tax collector of Luke 18 as an example of saving faith today?

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  60. Carrie,

    I agree that what Francis Beckwith has done is worse than what Peter did in some ways. (The reason why I say "in some ways" is because Peter did something worse in other ways. He fell from a higher position, for example. He was an apostle who had lived with Jesus, knew that he would be highly influential as an apostle, etc.) I made a distinction between Peter and Beckwith in the fourth-to-last paragraph of my original post.

    I think something people often underestimate is the significance of a person's background in Evangelicalism. Partly because of examples like David, Peter, the Corinthians, and the Galatians, I think there can be a high degree of sin in the life of a believer, even though that isn't the norm. Sin is evidence against salvation, but I think some people give it inordinate weight, while neglecting evidence pointing in the opposite direction, when they make judgments on matters like these. Just as we assign a lot of weight to the positive attributes in David's life prior to and after his times of sin, we ought to assign a lot of weight to a person's background in Evangelicalism if the person seems to have lived well in that context.

    You commented that "even if your comparison of Peter in Galatians to someone like Beckwith is legitimate, I would still expect the confusion to be temporary and a bit shallow". I agree that sin acquires more weight as evidence against a person's salvation the further the sin goes. We haven't been given any time limit at which we can draw a line, but I agree with the general principle you're referring to.

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  61. latitude wrote:

    "If a man walked into your church and stated that he in all sincerity 'beat his breast and said, 'God, have mercy on me, a sinner,’' would you accept that as a credible profession of faith?"

    Only if your example carries with it the sort of assumptions that Jesus' example surely carried. It's doubtful that Jesus would have thought that the tax collector would be justified if he defined "God" as one of the Egyptian deities, for example. Jesus was speaking primarily to first-century Jews, after all, and was one Himself. Does the man in your example accept the other essentials of the faith, such as what Paul mentions in 1 Corinthians 15:1-4?

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  62. Dave Armstrong wrote:

    "The point of my paper and question about it is not to stake out some 'works alone' position (which would, of course, be a Pelagianism that Catholics totally reject as heresy), but to note that it is rather striking that only works are mentioned in the judgment passages, and never faith alone (and faith at all only once out of 50)."

    I realize that the Catholic view involves grace and faith as well, which is why I previously referred to faith rather than "a combination between faith and gracious works" in reference to Galatians 3:21-25, for example. The second paragraph in the post you're responding to was meant to be an explanation of the intention of the Biblical authors, not a response to Catholicism.

    I don't see how some of the passages I mentioned in my last post, such as John 11:25-26 and Romans 5:1-9, can be exempted from an examination of judgment passages. When people are assured of a future in Heaven, the resurrection of life, the avoidance of God's wrath in the future, etc. on the basis of faith, why wouldn't such passages be relevant to the subject you're addressing?

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  63. Sin is evidence against salvation, but I think some people give it inordinate weight, while neglecting evidence pointing in the opposite direction, when they make judgments on matters like these.

    In this type of case I wasn't thinking so much about sin, but about knowledge. I have a difficult time understanding how a true believer (with a sola fide-like faith) could go on to accept the gospel of Rome.

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  65. Dave Armstrong writes:

    "In other words, 'believe' in the biblical sense already includes within it the concept of obedience (i.e., works)."

    I agree that faith is obedience, but it can be obedience without being work in any relevant sense. That's why we're told that people can believe without working (Romans 4:5-6), that justifying belief occurs in the heart (Acts 15:7-11, Romans 10:10), that works demonstrate faith (James 2:14-26), etc. Different terms are used to refer to faith and works, because they're different concepts. They can have obedience in common without having some other things in common.

    A reference to faith can't be assumed to include outward action, much less a specific outward action like baptism. That's why we often see baptism and faith distinguished, for example (Acts 8:12-13, 18:8, etc.). The fact that faith is obedience wouldn't lead us to the conclusion that other forms of obedience can be included in references to faith.

    The term "faith" and its synonyms aren't all that are relevant here. When we read of a paralytic being lowered into a house, a man visiting a Jewish temple, a crucified man, or a man listening to the gospel being preached, we don't define what that person is doing solely by a term like "faith". Rather, we also take into account the evidence provided by the surrounding context. It would make no sense to conclude that a paralyzed man being lowered into a house or a man visiting a Jewish temple was being baptized simultaneously or that a man nailed to a cross or a man listening to Peter preach the gospel was giving money to the poor at the same time. We judge how these individuals were justified partially through the surrounding context, not just a reference to faith or some related term. Part of the problem with the Catholic gospel is that not only do so many of the relevant passages mention faith without mentioning works, but the surrounding context gives us further reason to believe that the relevant works aren't involved.

    You write:

    "So even if one grants that these passages have to do directly with judgment and eschatological salvation (as I do not)"

    How can a passage about resurrection life and never dying (John 11:25-26) not be directly relevant? Passages of a similar nature use other phrases that are likewise relevant to future judgment and salvation, such as "on the last day" in John 6:40. Your article includes John 5:26-29, so I don't see a problem with including verse 24 as well. Themes of resurrection and judgment are already being discussed in verses 21-22. Yet, your article only cites verses 26-29.

    Similarly, Romans 5:1-9 repeatedly brings up themes of hope for the future and deliverance from future wrath.

    And I want to remind the readers of something I said earlier. The coming judgment is primarily a judgment of works even from the perspective of justification through faith alone. The unregenerate are condemned by their works, and the regenerate are justified in order to do (Ephesians 2:10), vindicated by, and rewarded for their works. The emphasis on works in judgment passages doesn't tell us, though, whether works are a means of justification. The dispute isn't about whether works are relevant to the judgment, but rather the type of relevance they have.

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  71. Dave Armstrong wrote:

    "Since the Catholic believes in the triumvirate of GRACE--->faith--->works as the criteria for salvation, passages dealing with faith pose no problem. The more the merrier."

    For reasons I explained earlier, a passage that only mentions faith can't be assumed to include works as well. The fact that the Catholic gospel includes faith doesn't explain passages that don't mention works. And I gave several examples of passages that only mention faith or suggest the exclusion of baptism and other works by their context (Genesis 15:6, Mark 2:5, Luke 18:10-14, Acts 10:44-46, Galatians 3:2, etc.). You haven't been interacting with those passages.

    If I were to cite John 13:8 as evidence of justification through a triumvirate of grace, faith, and foot washing, it wouldn't make sense for me to respond to passages that only mention faith, or whose context suggests the exclusion of foot washing, by saying "The more the merrier." If my gospel places justification at the time of foot washing, then passages that instead place it prior to foot washing, at the time of faith, are inconsistent with my gospel. The fact that my gospel and the passages in question both involve faith doesn't reconcile the two.

    Regarding the works passages you've been citing, it needs to be kept in mind that faith comes before works. The inner man moves the outer man to action. Passages about good works imply faith. But, as I mentioned earlier, faith can exist in the heart prior to the works that result from it. And scripture repeatedly refers to justification as occurring through that faith in the heart (Acts 15:7-11, Romans 10:10). Since faith exists before works, it requires more than a mention of faith in a passage in order to conclude that works are involved as well. In contrast, passages about good works, such as the judgment passages, imply a faith that not only is present, but is the root of those works.

    Commenting on Matthew 25:34-36, you write:

    "The 'for' shows the causal relationship: 'you are saved because you did all these works.'"

    As I said before, the judgment is about more than justification. The kingdom that the justified inherit is a kingdom that's largely defined by rewards (Matthew 25:14-30). The passage I just cited comes right before the one you cited. I've given a few reasons why works would be emphasized in judgment passages, and all of those reasons are applicable to Matthew 25:31-46.

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  72. Concerning John 5:28-29, Dave Armstrong writes:

    "A direct correlation: the ones who do good works are saved; the ones who do evil are damned."

    Yes, the regenerate are justified for good works (Ephesians 2:10) and can be described as the righteous in contrast to the unrighteous. But their status after this life, at the time of the resurrection, doesn't tell us how they attained justification. The works of Ephesians 2:10 don't disprove the earlier exclusion of works in Ephesians 2:8-9.

    Here's your attempt to explain what Jesus said a few verses earlier, in John 5:24:

    "I have explained that this is a generalized statement: one could perhaps paraphrase it as 'Christian believers have eternal life' or (to bring it down to a Sunday School nursery level): 'all good Christians go to heaven.'"

    You're using phrases that can include more than faith, but the passage only mentions faith. And, as I said earlier, such comments come from Jesus in the midst of a ministry in which He forgave, pronounced peace, and healed people upon their coming to faith (see here). To include baptism or other works in the passage wouldn't make sense textually or contextually. A faith that results in justification, then produces a life of good works, on the other hand, explains both John 5:24 and 5:28-29.

    Regarding Romans 2:6-8 and 2:13, you write:

    "Again, works are directly tied to eternal life and justification; they are not portrayed as merely acts of gratefulness that will lead to differential rewards for he saved; no, the differential reward is either salvation or damnation."

    I take both passages to be part of Paul's case leading up to the charge of universal guilt in Romans 3. None of us live up the standards he's setting down (Romans 3:9-23).

    Concerning 2 Thessalonians 1:7-9:

    "Note that simply believing the gospel and knowing God is not enough for salvation. One has to also 'obey the gospel' (and that involves works)."

    The passage is about the punishment of the unrighteous. It's not about how to attain justification. The fact that the unrighteous are punished for their behavior doesn't prove that justification is attained partially through works. And the righteous can be described as people who obey the gospel without the implication that they attained justification through works.

    You write the following about Revelation 2:5:

    "If we don't do the works, we can lose our salvation; therefore works have to do with salvation; they are not separated from that by abstracting them into a separate category of sanctification, that is always distinguished from justification."

    Jesus is addressing a local church. Local churches aren't justified, so they don't have any justification to lose.

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  73. And concerning Revelation 20:11-13, Dave Armstrong wrote:

    "Same thing again. Obviously, St. John, St. Paul, and our Lord Jesus need to attend a good Calvinist or evangelical seminary and get up to speed on their soteriology. They don't get it. The passage should have been written something like the following: '. . . and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to whether they had Faith Alone. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, every one of them according to whether they had Faith Alone.'"

    Again, since the judgment involves more than justification, I wouldn't expect a focus on how justification was attained. The unrighteous are condemned for their sin. The fact that they could have been saved from that condemnation through faith doesn't suggest that a discussion of their judgment should focus on faith. Law courts don't focus on what a criminal could have done to avoid punishment. And since judgment of the whole life is in view, not just judgment of the portion in which the righteous were justified, I would expect the works of the righteous to be judged. It doesn't follow that they attained justification through works.

    Since you affirm that faith is a means of justification, along with works, you also have to explain why such passages don't mention faith. My explanation is that the judgment of works isn't primarily about justification. The unrighteous are condemned for their sin, and the righteous are judged for their works and vindicated without their justification being attained through those works. Since I consider these passages to be primarily about non-justificatory issues, I don't expect any focus on faith. But if you want us to believe that the passages are primarily about how justification is attained, then why don't they mention faith?

    When we go on to the next two chapters in Revelation, we're reminded that eternal life is a free gift (21:6, 22:17). Justification through faith alone, a faith that results in works, not only explains why the justified are described as righteous in their behavior, but also explains the many Biblical passages that refer to people being justified as soon as they believe, as a free gift of grace and apart from works, on the basis of Christ's finished work. The fact that your gospel involves faith doesn't reconcile that gospel with those Biblical themes, since you're trying to reconcile those themes with works at the same time. Your gospel places works in passages that only mention faith, makes the free gift of eternal life something that must be worked for, and claims to exclude works only to bring in a different system of works to replace the ones excluded. That's a long way from Genesis 15:6.

    Regarding baptism, see here.

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  75. Jason wrote, “Only if your example carries with it the sort of assumptions that Jesus' example surely carried.”

    What kind of assumptions are you supposing that Jesus’ example surely carried?

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  76. latitude writes:

    "What kind of assumptions are you supposing that Jesus’ example surely carried?"

    The kind I went on to discuss in the sentences just after the one you quoted.

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  77. Mr. Engwer,as a Catholic, and former Baptist (for a while) I can say without any hesitation whatsoever -- what you said about Francis Beckwith's Christian faith, salvation and even resorting to the cheapest trick of so many evangelicals when they resort to high n' mighty "God Bless (Protestant) America rhetorical flourishes -- is pure HOGWASH.

    You should be ashamed of yourself and the black eye you gave Evangelical Protestantism. I can just see Chuck Colson, Ron Sider, Billy Graham, Rick Warren and other more reasoned and less jingoistically inclined men of higher stature becoming sick upon reading what you said.

    What you implied has long been implied by Protestants for years against Catholics ever since we arrived on our shores in great numbers following the Potato Famine, "western Civilization's" first use of genocide engineered by English Protestant officials to rid Ireland of a significant portion of her native Irish population, the vast majority of whom happened to be Catholic. In order to receive ANY charity food offering, Catholic children in County Mayo were expected to join the Quakers who provided it in poor houses that were nothing more than glorified poor barracks.

    Ah, but when we arrived on these shores made ever more glorious by anti-Catholic bigotry, what were we greeted with? A civil war; in which if any Catholic from any land arriving here needing work could always find it either as a draftee or a paid substitute for a (no doubt good righeous Protestant who felt so long as his salvation was already intact, the lesson of the lambs and goats need not apply ... especially any part of it dealing with works, explicitly stated or otherwise ... why he could just pay off some Irish O'Malley or Bavarian Bauer to do his fighting, bleedin' and damn dying for him.

    Catholic blood was always good for the sheddin' -- but Catholic equality, hah! was another matter entirely. Have you heard of the Blaine Act, or Jim Crow for Catholics? By the way...it's still on the books!

    And for you, Mr. Engwer, to wrap your peculiar brand (well, I hope it's a VERY peculiar) of Evangelical Protestantism around -- Old Glory or the other way around, what you're doing and saying insofar as the nitpicking judgmentalism that reeks from your statements, is no more than what the early Reds did during the Russian Revolution. For some 80 years+ since, and despite billions of gallons of blood shed over small picayune issues that divided the Reds due to their incessant desires to demonstrate their own brand of exegetical nonsense ... you sir, seemed to have not learned anything from the dangers of that. Nor have you learned anything about St. Paul's eventual recognition of St. Peter's authoritative leadership, nor even what Jesus meant when he said the Gates of Hell would open wide before he allowed its leaders to embrace error. If your "facts" or interpretation held up, even on the smallest margins of "truth," none of us would even be here and most likely the earth would look as barren as the moon.

    Or for that matter, as barren as your arguments against Dr. Beckwith. One thing you said which I couldn't agree with at all; "What conclusion does the balance of evidence point to? I'm too ignorant of the relevant facts, and have given the subject too little thought, to reach a confident conclusion." Amen to that, brother.

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  78. I would like to add a correction to my final comments. They were typed in a hurry and as soon as I noticed the error, I had to get moving:

    The following:
    "One thing you said which I couldn't agree with at all; "What conclusion does the balance of evidence point to? I'm too ignorant of the relevant facts, and have given the subject too little thought, to reach a confident conclusion." Amen to that, brother."

    Should have read (and I'm using all caps out of my desire not to get tangled with computer codes...otherwise I'd have used boldface and italics.) ...

    ""One thing you said which I couldn't DISAGREE with at all; I'm too ignorant of the relevant facts, and have given the subject too little thought, to reach a confident conclusion." Amen to that, brother."

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  79. I was hoping you could be more specific than he believed what first-century Jews believed. I’m interested in knowing what you think constituted justificatory faith in the example of the tax collector, i.e., what was the propositional content of his faith alone when he cast himself on the mercy of God?

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  80. Stephen Barrett,

    Are you going to interact with what I said in response to previous criticisms like yours? Or do you just want to tell us about how upset you are by my post and how upset you are by other opponents of Catholicism who have little to do with what I wrote?

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  81. latitude,

    I don't have much time at this point, and I don't want to spend what time I do have on a further discussion of the essentials of the faith in ancient Judaism. You haven't explained what relevance you think that subject has to this thread, and you haven't made much of an effort to accurately represent or interact with what I've already said.

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  82. Francis Beckwith continues to believe in the Apostles' Creed, the Nicene Creed, the Athanasian Creed, and the trustworthiness of Scriptures, including with regard to everything they teach on salvation. He makes this clear in his book Return to Rome: Confessions of an Evangelical Catholic, in which he also says that he continues to regard himself as an Evangelical such as found in the statement of faith of the Evangelical Theological Society. I wonder if any others on this blog have read Beckwith's Return to Rome: Confessions of an Evangelical Catholic.

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