Tuesday, October 30, 2007

Mormonism, The 4th Abrahamic Religion?

Richard Land:

as another faith in the same sense that I would look upon Islam as another faith. I think the fairest and most charitable way to define Mormonism would be to call it the fourth Abrahamic religion — Judaism being the first, Christianity being the second, Islam being the third, and Mormonism being the fourth. And Joseph Smith would play the same character in Mormonism that Muhammad plays in Islam."


This is political pragmatism gone wild. I've long been of the opinion that the head of the SBC Ethics and Religious Liberty Commission is far too cozy with the Republican Party to be the head of the ERLC. This is also why I don't believe Christians should vote for Mitt Romney. Just look at the way they have to dance around the truth to do it.

As the article goes on to say:

This raises all sorts of interesting questions. One, is it a promotion or a demotion? "Abrahamic religion" sounds a lot grander than "cult." However, Land also seems to suggest that Mormonism is no more Christian than is Islam. The second is whether it makes it any easier for a Southern Baptist concerned with theological niceties to vote for Romney. A third is whether Land, an extremely well educated and articulate man, is crediting Mormonism with being monotheistic, which is arguably what Abraham was all about. Many evangelicals contend that the LDS are polytheists, believing in plural Gods. Mormons respond that their tenets are no more polytheistic than the Christian belief in the Trinity.


Let me be clear here. I agree with Steve, there are certain things over which I have no control. The ultimate candidates in this next election is one of them. I do have some say in the primary. The primary is where Christians can vote their consciences.

I disagree with men like Stu Epperson Jr. who seem to believe that we should vote as if we have a duty to do so. No,we don't. Our only moral duty is to Christ, and nowhere does Scripture say we have a moral duty to vote. The early Christians did not have a vote for political leaders in Rome. I have no problem sitting out an election if I have good reason. "Responsible stewardship" of my vote includes my right to withhold my vote if I so desire.

Likewise, we should also remember that God can appoint a Cyrus and rule over us as well. Many of our leaders have forgotten that. Maybe what we need is a pagan to rule over us. Maybe that's what it would take for the churches to stop trying to use the state to do their work.

Also, we can learn from 1 Samuel that God gives people leaders after His heart (David), and he also gives them people leaders after their (evil) hearts (Saul), in order to show them that they need Him to rule over them and that their leaders should reflect men after His heart, not their evil hearts. If Romney is elected president, then, I wouldn't take this as complimentary with respect to the people in the churches. Rather, if they are willing to dance around fundamental Christian doctrine in order to justify their vote, what does that really say about them? This sort of latitudinarianism is the sort of thing that we see God passing judgment over in the OT. I think God would rather us vote for an honest pagan than a duplicitous pagan who tries to cloak his paganism, and He would rather us draw a line in the sand to tell a candidate with whom we might find some common ethical grounds that we will reject him in favor of a man who really is "one of us" (Huckabee), even though the latter might not be as likely to win a primary or an presidential election. Let your hot be hot and your cold, cold. Would Land take side of Israel against Jesus? Jesus was a True Jew of Jews, King of Kings, the very Messiah for whom Israel looked, yet when the time came, He was rejected. He came to His own and His own received Him not...

I would also add that if Land does not repent and/or make his comments clear, Ed Stetzer should rise up next June and rebuke Land from the podium of the SBC when he gives his NAMB report. I suggest: "This past year, because of the election cycle's inclusion of a Mormon on the presidential ticket, has brought unprecedented apologetic challenges to Southern Baptists. Let me be clear here, we at NAMB believe unequivocally that Mormonism is a doctrine of demons, a false religion, and by no means is it "Abrahamic" in any sense of the term. Those who think otherwise should reconsider their statements and repent of their error."

Let me also add that if you are a Baptist or Southern Baptist with access to Dr. Land or if you know somebody who does have such access, then may I implore you to contact him/them with these statements in hand and respectfully ask him to clarify them and/or correct him.

8 comments:

  1. Land’s classification is wrong on every count. To begin with, Christian and Judaism are not two distinct Abrahamic religions. On the one hand, Christianity is only Abrahamic if the NT fulfills the OT, while Judaism is only Abrahamic if the OT is fulfilled in the NT.

    As to Islam, in what sense would it be Abrahamic? Does Land think that Muslims are lineal descendents of Abraham? Many Muslims aren’t even Semites. And even if they were Semites, that doesn’t make them lineal descendants of Abraham.

    But even if they were, that’s theologically irrelevant. Does Land think that Muhammad exemplified the faith of Abraham? Does Land believe the Abrahamic covenant is fulfilled in the Koran? Truth is, Islam is equally misguided on the OT and the NT alike.

    And what I just said about Mohammedanism is equally applicable to Mormonism.

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  2. The Church of Jesus Christ (LDS) is often accused by Evangelical pastors of not believing in Christ and, therefore, not being a Christian religion This article helps to clarify such misconceptions by examining early Christianity's comprehension of baptism, the Godhead, the deity of Jesus Christ and His Atonement.

    · Baptism: .

    Early Christian churches, practiced baptism of youth (not infants) by immersion by the father of the family. The local congregation had a lay ministry. An early Christian Church has been re-constructed at the Israel Museum, and the above can be verified. http://www.imj.org.il/eng/exhibitions/2000/christianity/ancientchurch/structure/index.html
    The Church of Jesus Christ (LDS) continues baptism and a lay ministry as taught by Jesus’ Apostles. Early Christians were persecuted for keeping their practices sacred, and prohibiting non-Christians from witnessing them.

    · The Trinity: .

    A literal reading of the New Testament points to God and Jesus Christ , His Son , being separate , divine beings , united in purpose. . To whom was Jesus praying in Gethsemane, and Who was speaking to Him and his apostles on the Mount of Transfiguration?

    The Nicene Creed”s definition of the Trinity was influenced by scribes translating the Greek manuscripts into Latin. The scribes embellished on a passage explaining the Trinity , which is the Catholic and Protestant belief that God is Father, Son and Holy Spirit. The oldest versions of the epistle of 1 John, read: "There are three that bear witness: the Spirit, the water and the blood and these three are one."

    Scribes later added "the Father, the Word and the Spirit," and it remained in the epistle when it was translated into English for the King James Version, according to Dr. Bart Ehrman, Chairman of the Religion Department at UNC- Chapel Hill. He no longer believes in the Nicene Trinity. .

    Scholars agree that Early Christians believed in an embodied God; it was neo-Platonist influences that later turned Him into a disembodied Spirit. Divinization, narrowing the space between God and humans, was also part of Early Christian belief. St. Athanasius of Alexandria (Eastern Orthodox) wrote, regarding theosis, "The Son of God became man, that we might become God. " . The Church of Jesus Christ (LDS) views the Trinity as three separate divine beings , in accord with the earliest Greek New Testament manuscripts.

    · The Deity of Jesus Christ

    Mormons hold firmly to the deity of Christ. For members of the Church of Jesus Christ (LDS), Jesus is not only the Son of God but also God the Son. Evangelical pollster George Barna found in 2001 that while only 33 percent of American Catholics, Lutherans, and Methodists (28 percent of Episcopalians) agreed that Jesus was “without sin”, 70 percent of Mormons believe Jesus was sinless. http://www.adherents.com/misc/BarnaPoll.html

    · The Cross and Christ’s Atonement: .

    The Cross became popular as a Christian symbol in the Fifth Century A.D. . Members of the Church of Jesus Christ (LDS) believe the proper Christian symbol is Christ’s resurrection , not his crucifixion on the Cross. Many Mormon chapels feature paintings of the resurrected Christ or His Second Coming. Furthermore, members of the church believe the major part of Christ’s atonement occurred in the Garden of Gethsemane as Christ took upon him the sins of all mankind.

    · Definition of “Christian”: .

    But Mormons don’t term Catholics and Protestants “non-Christian”. They believe Christ’s atonement applies to all mankind. The dictionary definition of a Christian is “of, pertaining to, believing in, or belonging to a religion based on the teachings of Jesus Christ”: All of the above denominations are followers of Christ, and consider him divine, and the Messiah foretold in the Old Testament. They all worship the one and only true God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, and address Him in prayer as prescribed in The Lord’s Prayer.

    It’s important to understand the difference between Reformation and Restoration when we consider who might be authentic Christians. . Early Christians had certain rituals which defined a Christian http://sacred-texts.com/chr/ecf/207/2070037.htm , which members of the Church of Jesus Christ (LDS) continue today. . If members of the Church of Jesus Christ (LDS) embrace early Christian theology, they are likely more “Christian” than their detractors.

    · The Need for a Restoration of the Christian Church:

    The founder of the Baptist Church in America, Roger Williams, just prior to leaving the church he established, said this:

    "There is no regularly constituted church of Christ on earth, nor any person qualified to administer any church ordinances; nor can there be until new apostles are sent by the Great Head of the Church for whose coming I am seeking.” (Picturesque America, p. 502.)

    Martin Luther had similar thoughts: "Nor can a Christian believer be forced beyond sacred Scriptures,...unless some new and proved revelation should be added; for we are forbidden by divine law to believe except what is proved either through the divine Scriptures or through Manifest revelation."

    He also wrote: "I have sought nothing beyond reforming the Church in conformity with the Holy Scriptures. The spiritual powers have been not only corrupted by sin, but absolutely destroyed; so that there is now nothing in them but a depraved reason and a will that is the enemy and opponent of God. I simply say that Christianity has ceased to exist among
    those who should have preserved it."

    The Lutheran, Baptist and Church of Jesus Christ (LDS) churches recognize an apostasy from early Christianity. The Lutheran and Baptist churches have attempted reform, but Mormonism (and Roger Williams, and perhaps Martin Luther) require inspired restoration, so as to re-establish an unbroken line of authority and apostolic succession.

    * * *
    · Christ-Like Lives:

    The 2005 National Study of Youth and Religion published by UNC-Chapel Hill found that Church of Jesus Christ (LDS) youth (ages 13 to 17) were more likely to exhibit these Christian characteristics than Evangelicals (the next most observant group):


    1. Attend Religious Services weekly
    2. Importance of Religious Faith in shaping daily life – extremely important
    3. Believes in life after death
    4. Does not believe in psychics or fortune-tellers 5. Has taught religious education classes
    6. Has fasted or denied something as spiritual discipline
    7. Sabbath Observance
    8. Shared religious faith with someone not of their faith
    9. Family talks about God, scriptures, prayer daily
    10. Supportiveness of church for parent in trying to raise teen (very supportive)
    11. Church congregation has done an excellent job in helping teens better understand their own sexuality and sexual morality
    LDS Evangelical
    1. 71% 55%
    2. 52 28
    3. 76 62
    4. 100 95
    5. 42 28
    6. 68 22

    7. 67 40
    8. 72 56
    9. 50 19

    10. 65 26

    11. 84 35

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  3. Bot said:

    "The Church of Jesus Christ (LDS) is often accused by Evangelical pastors of not believing in Christ and, therefore, not being a Christian religion This article helps to clarify such misconceptions by examining early Christianity's comprehension of baptism, the Godhead, the deity of Jesus Christ and His Atonement."

    We're familiar with Mormon propaganda. For a corrective, see:

    http://aomin.org/Mormonism.html

    http://www.mrm.org/

    http://www.saintsalive.com/

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  4. It’s important to understand the difference between Reformation and Restoration when we consider who might be authentic Christians

    We'll let you and our Campbellite friend, Egomarkarios, who made this same argument here not one week ago then, duke it out over who represents the true restoration of the church. We'll also let you explain how grace batted zero for several generations.

    Roger Williams is well known for his latitudinarianism

    As to your Luther quote, that's funny, sine he also subscribed to the ancient creeds.

    As to Jesus taking on the sins of all mankind, the majority of the staff here are Calvinists, and we deny this. Care to produce an argument for General Atonement?

    A literal reading of the New Testament points to God and Jesus Christ , His Son , being separate , divine beings , united in purpose. . To whom was Jesus praying in Gethsemane, and Who was speaking to Him and his apostles on the Mount of Transfiguration?

    1. Thank you for affirming clearly that Mormonism is polytheistic. If only more evangelicals would tell the truth about this fact. If only Mitt Romney would admit it. If only Richard Land would not gloss over it.

    2. "Person" and "being" are not necessarily contradictory terms. None of the questions you ask are unanswerable by a trinitarian. They might be unanswerable by a modalist like a Oneness Pentecostal. We'll let you and them also duke it out, along with the Campbellites over who represents the one true holy apostolic church.

    We could go on and on here, but as Steve said, we are familar with Mormon propaganda. At the base, you, sir, are still in your sins and need to cast yourself on the sole and sufficient merit of Christ, who is God of God and Light of Light, one Person of Three in the One God, Son of the Father - the Father who does NOT have a physical body.hy

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  5. "As to Jesus taking on the sins of all mankind, the majority of the staff here are Calvinists, and we deny this. Care to produce an argument for General Atonement?"

    Should our brothers of Eastern, Jewish, or Moslem relgions not benefit from Jesus' atonement? Mormons believe they have an opportunity in Paradise to accept Him. Do you consign them the "Hell", through no fault of their own?

    A literal reading of the New Testament points to God and Jesus Christ , His Son , being separate , divine beings , united in purpose. . To whom was Jesus praying in Gethsemane, and Who was speaking to Him and his apostles on the Mount of Transfiguration?

    " Thank you for affirming clearly that Mormonism is polytheistic. If only more evangelicals would tell the truth about this fact. If only Mitt Romney would admit it. If only Richard Land would not gloss over it."

    Any religion which adheres to the original Greek text of the New Testament recognizes Jesus Christ as the Son of God, as separate diety. They (including Mormons) address God in prayer (i.e. monotheistic), just as Abraham did. They do not pray to Jesus, as our Evangelical brothers do. Who is being polytheistic?

    " The Father who does NOT have a physical body." Did Moses see the finger of the Lord, or was it an apparition?

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  6. Bot said:

    Should our brothers of Eastern, Jewish, or Moslem relgions not benefit from Jesus' atonement? Mormons believe they have an opportunity in Paradise to accept Him. Do you consign them the "Hell", through no fault of their own?

    Our brothers? Our brothers are Christians, and no, Jews and Muslims will not benefit from Jesus' atonement. "I am the way, and the truth, and the life. NO MAN comes to the Father but through ME." Jn.14:6 Is there some ambiguity here?

    An opportunity in Paradise to accept Him? Wow, I'll just wait till then. I don't know why the apostles preached the gospel with such urgency. Why believe now, just wait until you no longer need faith.

    Consign them to hell through no fault of their own? We're not consigning anyone to hell, only God can do that. Since every man has original and personal sin, being sent to hell is something every man deserves.

    Further Bot says:

    A literal reading of the New Testament points to God and Jesus Christ , His Son , being separate , divine beings , united in purpose. . To whom was Jesus praying in Gethsemane, and Who was speaking to Him and his apostles on the Mount of Transfiguration?

    Their united ontologically. Jesus was praying to His Father in heaven. God the Father was speaking to Him and His apostles on the Mt of Transfiguration. Is this supposed to be an argument of some kind? I'm sorry the Triune God doesn't fit into your box.

    Bot then says:

    Any religion which adheres to the original Greek text of the New Testament recognizes Jesus Christ as the Son of God, as separate diety. They (including Mormons) address God in prayer (i.e. monotheistic), just as Abraham did. They do not pray to Jesus, as our Evangelical brothers do. Who is being polytheistic.

    Care to drag out your Greek lexicon? There are three Persons in One God. Is it not that you misunderstand the Trinity that you make such statements? Mormons do not address the God of the Bible in prayer, as He has revealed Himself to be Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Praying to God the Father through Christ the Son is praying to the One God. That is Christian Monotheism. You, however, are a polytheist. Care to deny it with a straight face? No knowledgable Mormon would.

    Lastly, Bot asks:

    Did Moses see the finger of the Lord, or was it an apparition?

    Wow. Have you considered that the Bible uses human language to communicate truths about God so that we can understand, to some degree, the infinite and eternal God who made the heavens and the earth? God is a Spirit and does not have a body like men. Maybe a children's catechism is in order for you...

    So let's sum up. You deny original sin, the Trinity, and monotheism, while endorsing a general atonement and the salvation of those who reject Christ in this life. Hmmm. Do we not rightly call you a heretic?

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  7. Should our brothers of Eastern, Jewish, or Moslem relgions not benefit from Jesus' atonement?

    According to Scripture, the atonemet's redemptive benefits flow to the elect alone.

    Care to mount an exegetical argument for General Atonement?

    Mormons believe they have an opportunity in Paradise to accept Him. Do you consign them the "Hell", through no fault of their own?

    Isn't it funny that while talking about a "literal reading of the NT" you deny a literal hell? I find that most amusing.

    What we have here is an ethical argument, not an exegetical argument.

    According to Calvinism, the only thing that condemns a man is his sin. God is not to blame.

    A literal reading of the New Testament points to God and Jesus Christ , His Son , being separate , divine beings , united in purpose.

    1. This is question begging.

    2. We use the grammatical-historical, not the "literal" reading of the text.

    3. "Person" in Christian theology does not mean "being."

    Which gets us to.. .

    To whom was Jesus praying in Gethsemane, and Who was speaking to Him and his apostles on the Mount of Transfiguration?


    This is not a problem when one realizes that "person" and "being" are not convertible terms. A "person" in our theology is a subsistency (3 "whos") within a single being (one "what.")

    So, all you have done is make an assumption without benefit of argument.

    Any religion which adheres to the original Greek text of the New Testament recognizes Jesus Christ as the Son of God, as separate diety.

    1. Mormons are hardly known for their mastery of NT Greek.

    2. This is an assertion bereft of an argument.

    They (including Mormons) address God in prayer (i.e. monotheistic), just as Abraham did.

    Since Mormons believe that we can become gods and inherit our own planets and that Elohim is one god among many, they are not monotheistic. Rather what you are doing is saying that Elohim is god of this earth and the one to whom we should pray to the exclusion of the others, therefore Mormons are monotheistic. This simply redefines "monotheistic."

    They do not pray to Jesus, as our Evangelical brothers do. Who is being polytheistic.

    1. According to the NT Jesus Christ is God Incarnate,not merely divine, nor simply a god or a created, yet preexistent being.

    2. Christian theology does not affirm that Jesus is a separate god.

    3. Apropos 3, what you've done is simply impose your own view of the Trinity upon us,misrepresent it in the process, and then accuse us of polytheism.

    And you were pointed to resources. Care to interact with them?

    Did Moses see the finger of the Lord, or was it an apparition?

    Apparently, you don't know what anthropomorphism is. This is not a problem for us at all. If I say, "this sentence was written in my finger," it does not mean that I wrote it as if I finger painted it. Rather, it means it is written by me and nobody else by my power, and not any other writer.

    Do you affirm that a finger appeared out of thin air and brought the plagues upon Egypt (Exodus 8)? Do you believe that when God created the heavens, he used his fingers (Psalm 8)? That must be quite the quandry for your "literal" reading of the Bible, since Genesis says that God spoke and it was done, not that he had a workshop out of which his literal fingers and hands fashioned the stars of the sky.

    You're worshipping Superman, who can grab steel and leave his fingerprints in it, not the God of the Bible.

    Might I point out for the benefit of the readers that here we have a Mormon spouting doctrines that we find not only in Arminians but by Open Theists (Post-mortem encounters), and atheists. Ever notice how that frequently so many errors overlap?

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  8. As I read the exchange here, I am struck by the contrast in humility and love manifested by the two parties. While one person seems to be genuinely promoting the honest inquiry after truth, the other parties respond with what the Spirit confirms to me as pride, self-righteousness and even some vindictiveness. The Calvinists here have the opportunity to show love, understanding, light and compassion. Instead, it feels like I sit at the feet of the Pharisees when reading the responses to Bot. Remember, "God so loved the world. . ." and that includes everyone.

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