Friday, August 12, 2005

The civil wars of Popery

Papist Civil Wars Are Alive and Well (Can a Leopard Change Its Spots?)

Let's briefly note a few of these "worse than absurd" disagreements between fellow Romanists currently taking place on the Internet (obviously nothing has changed in some 1700 years: Catholics fought each other then and they continue to do so, and split and form new factions). The following are not mere examples of gentlemanly disagreement: they are uncivil, acrimonious exchanges characterized by personal remarks at the expense of the other's honesty, sincerity, intelligence, basic knowledge, etc.

The discord largely derives from the bankruptcy of the notions of Magisterial judgment and sola Ecclesia. Those were the Romanist principles, so I place primary blame on what has happened by way of endless division and schism, right there. False premises can be just as deadly in the long run as sin and corruption, etc., because a lie is a bad thing, and the devil is the father of lies.

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The Donatists and Novatianists Live:

"Traditionalist" and Schismatic Catholics


Pensées on Catholic “Traditionalism” (my book; available in PDF or Word 2000)

Dialogue: The "Traditionalist" Disdain for the Second Vatican Council: Is it Consistent With Catholic Tradition? Is it Binding on All Catholics? (With Copious References, and a Discussion of the Infallibility and Sublime Authority of Conciliar and Papal Decrees and Pronouncements) 189K

Conciliar Infallibility: Church Documents 23K

Protestant Contra-Catholic Revisionist History: Pope St. Pius X and Cardinal Newman's Alleged "Modernism" (Dave Armstrong vs. David T. King) 94K

Dietrich von Hildebrand and Legitimate Catholic Traditionalism 45K

Dialogue on "Salvation Outside the Church" and Alleged Catholic Magisterial Contradictions (Particularly in the Middle Ages; With Emphasis on St. Thomas Aquinas's Views) 81K

A Defense of the Ecumenical Gathering at Assisi (Ecumenism in St. Thomas Aquinas)(Fr. Alfredo M. Morselli) 35K

A Response to (and Wonderment at) Criticisms of the Second Ecumenical Gathering at Assisi (2002) (Mark P. Shea) 25K

Dialogue: Should the Pope Kiss The Koran?: Ecumenism as an Effort to Acknowledge Partial Truth Wherever it is Found (Dave Armstrong vs. David Palm) 71K

"Why Doesn't Pope John Paul II DO Something About the Modernist Dissenters in the Catholic Church?" 39K

Are All Catholic Laymen and Non-Theologians Qualified to Freely and Frequently Criticize the Pope's Opinions and Prudential Judgment? (Dave Armstrong vs. Mario Derksen) 72K

My "Second Catholic Conversion": A Reductio ad Absurdum of So-Called Catholic "Traditionalism" 42K

Catholic Fundamentalism and "Insufficiently Converted Catholics" 9K

Dialogue: Baptism, the Mystical Body of Christ, and Implications for Ecumenism 18K

My Traditional Novus Ordo Parish 16K

How to Receive Communion: Tradition, Abuses, Symbolism, and Piety 13K

Critique of The Remnant, with Copious Documentation (Dave Armstrong vs. John Vennari, Michael J. Matt, etc.)

Dialogue on The Remnant ("Traditionalist" Group) (Dave Armstrong vs. Mark Cameron)

Syllabus of 60 "Traditionalist" Errors, Fallacies, and False Principles

Critique of my Syllabus of 60 "Traditionalist" Errors and My Counter-Reply (Dave Armstrong vs. Mark Cameron)

A Critique of the Society of St. Pius X (SSPX), "Traditionalism," and the "Schismatic Spirit" (Dave Armstrong vs. several "traditionalists")

Dialogue With Three Schismatic, "Traditionalist Catholics"

Dialogue: So-Called "Traditionalists" vs. So-Called "Conservatives" (Dave Armstrong vs. two "traditionalists")

Dialogue on Vatican II, Conciliar Infallibility, and the SSPX (Dave Armstrong vs. an SSPX "traditionalist")

Dialogue: Vatican II and Other Religions (Nostra Aetate)

Dialogue: Catholic "Traditionalism": the Dreadful Malady of the Mind and Scourge of an Optimistic Faith in God's Protection of His Church (Dave Armstrong vs. David Palm and Mario Derksen)

Dialogue with a Troubled Semi-Traditionalist on the "Catastrophe" of the Post-Vatican II Church

Reflections on False Catholic "Traditionalism"

How Anti-Catholics Can be Catholics' Brothers in Christ

Dialogue on the Legitimacy of Catholic Development of Doctrine, With Reference to Vatican I, Vatican II, and the Catechism of the Catholic Church (Dave Armstrong vs. a Feeneyite and an SSPX sympathizer)

Apologia for Catholic Ecumenism and Christian Unity

My "Neo-Conservative 'Messianic'" Affinities? Weird Remark From Bob Sungenis (Dave Armstrong vs. Robert Sungenis)

Karl Keating Is Motivated More By Money Than By Truth, and Is a Coward, So Sez Robert Sungenis

"Traditionalist" Catholic Attacks on Pope John Paul II: Accusations of Incompetence, Modernism, Compromise, and Heresy

Pope Benedict XVI (as Cardinal Ratzinger): Vatican II Has the Same Authority as Trent (if one goes, both go)

The "Traditionalist" Pet Term Neo-Catholic: Where Does it Come From? What Does it Mean?

"Traditionalist" Errors of the Seattle Catholic Documented

Kevin Tierney's False Accusation That I am an "Integrist" (Demand For Proofs)

First Counter-Reply to Kevin Tierney's "Proofs" That I Am an "Integrist" (Prudence and Dogma in Ecumenism)

2nd Counter-Reply to Kevin Tierney's "Proofs" That I Am an "Integrist" (Pope John Paul II's Ecumenism & Lesser Disputes)

Needed Corrective of a Good Man Who Has Gotten Legalistic About Certain Catholic Moral Teachings (Stephen Hand) (+ BlogBack Comments)

Stephen Hand's Bizarre Flip-Flops Concerning Critics of His Integrism, and Other Ludicrous Double Standards

Karl Keating and Christopher Blosser: Catholic Apologetics IS Important / Stephen Hand: MOST of it Stinks

"Hand Full of Insults": Stephen Hand's Public Personal Attacks on "War Bloggers" (Documented)

Pro-Abortionists Joseph Gerson and the AFSC, Dr. Carol Wolman, the "Seamless Robe," and Stephen Hand

On Actual "Obsessions", "Angsts", and "Tormented Consciences" (Aka "Slight of Hand" Dept.) (Part Two | Part Three | Addendum) [Stephen Hand's Legalistic Integrism] (I. Shawn McElhinney)

EXTERNAL LINKS
Vatican II
What Went Wrong With Vatican II? (Ralph McInerny)
What did the Second Vatican Council do for us? (Ian Ker)
WAS VATICAN II “PRE-CONCILIAR”? (James Hitchcock)
The Renewal of Vatican II: Distractions and Distortions (Douglas Bushman)
THE WAKE OF VATICAN II (Janet E. Smith)
Bright Promise, Failed Community: Catholics and the American Public Order (book by Catholic sociologist Joseph A. Varacalli)
Making the True Vatican II Our Own (John Saward)
Vatican II and Religious Liberty: Contradiction or Continuity? (Brian W. Harrison)
Non-Schismatic Traditionalist, Tridentine / Novus Ordo Latin Mass, and Liturgical Reform Websites and Articles
Agenda (William Grossklas; contra-SSPX website)
Rerum Novarum (I. Shawn McElhinney)
F. John Loughnan's Page (former SSPX member)
ULTRATRADITIONALISTS (website by "Matt1618"; including many papers by I. Shawn McElhinney)
Crown of David - Honouring Christ the King in His Royal Heritage (Michael Petek)
The Catholic Liturgical Library
James Likoudis' Page
A Bill of Rights for Orthodox Catholics (Mark J. Kelly)
Latin Mass (Novus Ordo) Directory for the USA
Schismatic Traditionalists (Matt C. Abbott)
SSPX / Lefebvrites
Introduction to the Lefebvrist Schism (James Akin)
Decree of Excommunication on Marcel Lefebvre
The Protocol of Agreement of the Vatican and Archbishop Lefebvre
Archbishop Lefebvre and the Declaration on Religious Liberty (William G. Most)
Ecclesia Dei (Pope John Paul II on the schismatic Society of St. Pius X)
Agenda (William Grossklas; contra-SSPX website)
A Canonical History of the Lefebvrite Schism (Peter J. Vere)
My Journey Out of the Lefebvre Schism: All Tradition Leads to Rome (Pete Vere)
Is the Society of St. Pius X in Schism? A Recent Response from Rome (F. John Loughnan)
Status of Society of St. Pius X Masses (Pontifical Commission on Ecclesia Dei)
Status of SSPX (Pontifical Commission on Ecclesia Dei)
The Flat Earth Society and SSPX-Type "Traditionalists" (F. John Loughnan)
Schism, Obedience, & SSPX (John Beaumont & John Walsh)
MY REASONS FOR WITHDRAWING SUPPORT FROM THE SOCIETY OF ST. PIUS X (F. John Loughnan)
Lefebvrism: Jansenism Revisited? (Anthony Fisher) + SSPX Type Traditionalists (F. John Loughnan)
Do-it Yourself Popes: The Wacky World of Sedevacantists (Michael Petek)

Compiled by Dave Armstrong. Thorough URL Revision: 6 March 2004. Updated: 8 August 2005.

http://ic.net/~erasmus/RAZ389.HTM

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Tuesday, August 09, 2005

"NeoCaths" and Old Liberal Nonsense: Challenges to Fr. Joseph O'Leary's Trashing of Orthodox Catholic Apologetics
Once again we have witnessed the spectacle of a liberal Catholic (this time, sadly, a priest: Fr. Joseph O'Leary) trashing the apologetics movement ("The Rise of the Neocaths"), complete with the obligatory use of the term fundamentalist ("They argue by proof texts, in complete contempt of biblical scholarship and hermeneutics. Their ingenuity in defending their fundamentalist stances is extreme"), mocking of established Catholic sexual morality ("They insist that masturbation is mortally sinful, and have an especial enthusiasm for the teaching that homosexuality is intrinsically disordered and that homosexual acts can never be countenanced"), and use of a semi-novel pejorative descriptive: Neocaths.

The term Neo-Catholic is (somewhat ironically) normally used by "traditionalists" (equally improperly, as I have written about).

http://socrates58.blogspot.com/

3 comments:

  1. Interesting. One of the chief arguments for an infallible magisterium made by RC's is that recognizing the right to private individual interpretation of the Bible without such a magisterium would lead to doctrinal chaos. Kind of undermines that whole argument.

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  2. @dave

    I put that line of thinking to some catholics over at Mike liccones blog and was told that whilst this may be the case the difference is that the RC's have the magisterium as a final arbritrator if needed. I.e. if you and i are protestants our disagreements cant go any further we simply remain in disagreement but if you and i are catholics then you and i have recourse to ask the magisterium and have the debate setteled.... Now that i think of it whislt it sounds like a good thing it is of course very unpractical.. Imagine the amount of disagreements out their that the magisterium would have to settle !!! None the less if a huge disagreement appeared in a the catholic church they do have a mecahanism for solving it we dont... what do you think?

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  3. The problem is they disagree over their interpretation of what the magisterium pronounces. In the end, and infallible pronouncement is no more helpful than infallible Scripture. Both sides think it's clear. Both sides have to rely on fallible brains to interpret the infallible

    ReplyDelete