The US women's team won the Women's World Cup today. Apparently this is the US women's fourth World Cup victory since the dawn of the Women's World Cup. That's the most titles of any nation.
Riding this wave, it appears women are demanding equal pay in soccer because apparently women make significantly less than their male counterparts in soccer.
I admit I haven't followed the equal pay issues in women's soccer in significant depth so I don't know if what I'm about to say is on target. Here are my remarks:
- First, congrats to the women's team. Megan Rapinoe is the media darling and MVP, but Rose Lavelle looks like the real breakout star of the team in terms of athleticism.
- Do women in soccer deserve to make the same money as men in soccer? I don't know that "deserve" has anything to do with it. I don't know that it's an ethical issue. Rather I presume salary largely reflects viewership, sponsorship, and advertising. If a sport can get tons of viewers, sponsors, and advertisers interested, then the sport will have more money, and I presume players can get paid more. Isn't that normally how it works in sports? Why should it be different for women's soccer?
- If we're judging simply by athleticism, I imagine it's not as fun to watch women play soccer as it is to watch men play soccer. To be frank, as good as our women's professional soccer team is, and I don't wish to take anything away from them, nevertheless they look more like amateurs playing soccer in comparison to a low tier male professional soccer team let alone a world class team like Brazil, France, Germany, Italy, England, Portugal, etc. I imagine that's the case for most men's vs. women's sports, not only soccer.
- I presume sports like women's tennis and volleyball are popular at least as much (if not more so) for the female athletes' appearances as for their athleticism. That's not to suggest it's fair.
- I don't have a problem if women are paid equally or even more than men in the same sport. Perhaps women's soccer can bring in as much if not more viewership, sponsorship, and advertising than men's soccer in the US. Especially in light of this latest World Cup victory. If so, then women could very well be paid on par with or even more than men. I don't have a problem with that.
- My problem is if women are paid on par with men by dictum presumably due to political, social, or cultural pressure to pay women more simply because they're women. That seems sexist. And women shouldn't wish to get paid more simply because they're women any more than men should wish to get paid more simply because they're men. How is that empowering?
- Take men's soccer in the US vs. England. To my knowledge, the English Premier League (EPL) tends to pay their players more than the Major League Soccer (MLS) pays their players. I presume that's because the EPL has more viewers, sponsors, and advertisers involved than the MLS does. However it'd be laughable if someone argued men's soccer players in the MLS should get paid on par with men's soccer players in the EPL, not because the MLS is bringing in the same viewership and money and so on as the EPL, but simply because they're paid lower and deserve to be paid more, or perhaps because the "potential" for viewers in the MLS is greater than the "potential" in the EPL.
- I don't know if it would help or hurt if transgendered "women" make it onto the women's national soccer teams. I guess it'd improve the athleticism, but won't many viewers find that unfair or offputting in some way? At best, wouldn't it be like watching a low-rent men's soccer team? Who would want to watch that?
--If we're judging simply by athleticism, I imagine it's not as fun to watch women play soccer as it is to watch men play soccer. To be frank, as good as our women's professional soccer team is, and I don't wish to take anything away from them, nevertheless they look more like amateurs--
ReplyDeleteHawk, surely you'll have heard the meme by now???
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-4389760/USA-women-s-team-suffer-5-2-loss-FC-Dallas-U-15-boys.html
I hadn't seen that, but thanks for mentioning it! A great example. Thanks again, Scott. :)
DeleteYes, when I'm looking for athletic ability, I want to see the best. My favorite sport is hockey. I've attended games for both Colorado College, back when they were consistently in the NCAA tournaments (and even made it to the Frozen Four in 2005), and the Colorado Avalanche when they weren't even playoff caliber, and the Avs were ALWAYS better to watch. Why? Because no matter how good Colorado College was, their passes were more sloppy, their shots were less on target, and their skill just wasn't the same as the professionals.
DeleteThe best college team would get blown out of the water by the worst NHL team. That's the difference in skill level. (Note: individual college players are better than some of the pros, but you never have ALL the best players on the same college team that would make it competitive--as a team--against a pro team.)
In any case, the same thing happens with women in sports, as shown by the article Scott linked. Individual women are better than certain individual men, but as a team they'll never be able to get enough talent together to compete against even the worst men's team at the same level. But this is only when looking at something based on athletic capability. When looking at something that emphasizes, for example, graceful movements, like many gymnastic routines or figure skating, then I would much prefer to watch women than men. Again, there are individual men who are more graceful than the worst women, but as a collective women are going to be better at those types of dexterous activities.
If I want to see athletic endeavors, I want to see the BEST athletic endeavors. If I want to see graceful endeavors, I want to see the BEST graceful endeavors. Men and women have different skill sets and will naturally have different representation in the "best" categories across the board.
That's a good distinction - athletic and graceful.
DeleteU15 boys who defeated the US women’s national soccer team demand equal pay.
DeleteI've always thought sports is where the culture will finally start to push back. I used to follow professional tennis and this issue of equal pay has been bouncing around for years. I said years ago that pay should relate to money brought in. If women's tennis brought in more viewers they should get more money! But women's tennis pretty much never does. My aunt, who got me into tennis, told me as a child (when I asked why she didn't watch the women's games), the women's games are boring. But nowadays "Equal pay for equal work" goes the saying. But the problem is it isn't equal work. Serena Williams doesn't have to beat Federer to win. The logic of feminism should result in the abolishment of the female tour. Just let them all play together, everyone is equal! But that would never happen as no woman would make a living anymore as no woman can compete at anywhere near the top men's level. So radical feminism starts to break down when it's comes to our beloved sports.
ReplyDelete> But the problem is it isn't equal work. Serena Williams doesn't have to beat Federer to win.
DeleteYes. The whole premise of women's sport is that there's a level playing, for those allowed to take part, *because a whole other class of people have been excluded*.
Why are those other people excluded? Invariably (e.g. you must be under 21, you must be disabled, you must have only begun playing the sport in the last year, or you must be female) because, if they weren't, those who are allowed to play would be significantly inferior; they'd lose in a content so un-even that it wouldn't be entertaining to play in or watch.
i.e. Women's football is a "category" sport. People are excluded so that those who play don't lose in a landslide. I look forward to the captain of the USA football team remembering to clearly articulate that next time she asks for "equal pay". Equal pay with the people who aren't allowed in the competitions she plays in, so that it's not a wipe-out.
> there's a level playing
Delete"level playing field"
It would be interesting to see if a few trans men decided to play in the women's teams. Think of the controversy this would cause.
ReplyDeleteThanks, everyone! Several helpful points!
ReplyDeleteBy the way, Matt Walsh argues US men and women soccer players are more or less on par with one another in terms of pay and he also argues the US women's national soccer team players are overpaid compared to men. To be fair, I don't know if his stats are reliable.