I have a question for those who think it's sufficient to quote a passage like James 2:24, without any accompanying argument, against an Evangelical view of justification. Do you take the same approach toward passages in the church fathers that use the term "faith alone" positively? There are many places where the church fathers say that justification is through faith alone or something similar ("faith only", "bare faith", etc.). The typical response to such passages, among those who reject justification through faith alone, is to say that the fathers' language must be qualified by the surrounding context. We're told that it's not enough to just quote a passage where they use such language. Rather, we need to address the larger context as well. Isn't the same true of James 2:24 (and Philippians 2:12-13, etc.)?
Thursday, August 01, 2013
What Does A Quotation Of James 2:24 Prove?
Something I wrote in a thread at Justin Taylor's blog:
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John,
DeleteI haven't "assumed that the mere phrase itself is clear enough to reject those who say 'not by faith alone'". If you want us to believe otherwise, then give us an argument to that effect. Don't just assert it.
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John,
DeleteThere are a lot of problems with your response.
If I'm "bashing" by disagreeing with and criticizing people, then are you "bashing" when you disagree with and criticize people like me?
You've failed to demonstrate that I did what you accused me of in your original response. You said that I was judging what views people hold based solely on the phrase "faith alone". I asked you to prove that I was doing so. You still haven't proven it.
On the one hand, you claim that I expect people to know who I'm criticizing based merely on my reference to "those who reject justification through faith alone". On the other hand, you go on to acknowledge that there's a larger context involved, a context in which "anyone familiar with your blog knows who you are trying to bash". Since I'm writing in a context people are familiar with (e.g., my own background, the background of this blog, the Eastern Orthodox view promoted in the thread I linked to), I'm not expecting people to know what I'm referring to solely by a phrase like "those who reject justification through faith alone". Your accusation that I'm relying merely on that phrase or some equivalent is ridiculous and is refuted by your own post.
And I don't "assume that [my] categories, perhaps we might call them the Pauline categories, are the only legitimate categories worth talking about". Rather, I and other Evangelicals argue for our position and interact with opposing positions.
You suggest there's "not a lot" of emphasis on the themes of James in Protestant discussions of justification. Protestants have written thousands of pages on the subject over the years, like some recent books by John MacArthur (The Gospel According To Jesus) and John Piper (Finally Alive). It's a topic frequently addressed in Protestant confessions, Biblical commentaries, etc. We've often addressed the issue at this blog.
As far as some Protestants neglect the issue, that's primarily their problem, not ours. The extent to which I and other Protestants will address the topic depends on the context in which we're living. Since most people in the world believe in some form of justification through works, and professing Christians who hold such a view far outnumber those who don't, it makes sense to put a lot of emphasis on the exclusion of works from the gospel.
You conclude your post with a reference to Martin Luther. You give us no reference to where Luther said what you're attributing to him, and you give us no reason to think you're representing him accurately. I've seen the passage in Luther, and it doesn't say what you're implying. I've also seen some of the passages in Luther where he discourages sin and encourages good works.
Besides, Luther is one man, and he died a few centuries ago. I don't spend much time criticizing his errors for much the same reason I don't spend much time criticizing the errors of Origen, John Chrysostom, etc. Furthermore, the position that we should "Sin and sin boldly", with the sort of unqualified negative implications you're suggesting, is a position that's absurd enough to not warrant much response.
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John wrote:
Delete"No, I said that the post 'assumes a particular view of the phrase 'faith alone''."
That's not all you said. You went on to claim that I was judging by "the mere phrase itself". You need to explain that erroneous portion of your post. Instead, you keep ignoring it.
You wrote:
"In other words, it assumes that 'faith alone' always refers to an unbiblical viewpoint."
You keep attributing views to me that I don't hold, without explaining how you allegedly derive them from what I've said.
You wrote:
"But what I didn't know is that you are proud of the fact that your postings merely preach to the converted, the already indoctrinated androids who hear 'faith and works' and instinctively go into convulsions of revulsion without stopping to think that oh, its actually a phrase spoken of favourably by the bible."
That's just your tendentious characterization of my position, without any attempt to demonstrate that I actually hold it.
The fact that the Bible refers favorably to faith and works isn't new to me and other Evangelicals who post here, nor is it something we react to the way you're suggesting. You aren't showing much concern for accuracy.
You wrote:
"But Protestants are one trick ponies, railing without limit on Rome's publishing a document saying we are justified by faith and works, but never rightly taking up the cause as enunciated by James."
You're so incompetent. In my last post, I gave examples of Protestants doing what you claim they don't do. Instead of interacting with the examples, you ignore them and reiterate your error more forcefully.
It's now been a few days since this thread began. You still haven't offered any substantive interaction with the point I made in my original post. Instead, you keep misrepresenting my position and changing the subject.
As I said in one of the other threads, either improve the quality of your posts or stop posting. You're wasting everybody's time.