I found myself arguing with the atheist commenters, some of whom showed no better critical thinking skills then the ignorant believers I have encountered here time and again. Atheists do not, on the whole, have much better critical thinking skills than the general populace. We don't see it until there is a disagreement, for until then it looks like we agree because we are good thinkers.
http://debunkingchristianity.blogspot.com/2012/02/i-do-not-like-arguing-with-atheists.html
Now he knows how we feel when we talk to him.
ReplyDeleteThis guy can't utter one sentence without self-aggrandizement. I guess if you disagree with John Loftus, you are by definition a poor thinker.
ReplyDeleteI'm going to place an outside wager here: Loftus will drop atheism and convert to Christianity in the next few years.
ReplyDeleteI don't think this will be because he has some great and grand conversion experience. I think it will come from realizing that his dreams of achieving fame and success as an atheist apologist are in the toilet, and thinking his last, best chance at any kind of success is with a 'the atheist who returned to Christ' story.
Crude, I've been thinking that too, but I didn't want to say it because:
ReplyDelete1. saying it might give him that idea since he reads this blog on occasion
2. his desire for notoriety and money might lead him to consider it
3. I've prayed that he does return to Christianity, but that it would be a real conversion, not a false one. A fake conversion would end up with him either renouncing Christianity a second time (for various reasons), OR determining to remain a professing Christian contrary to his real beliefs. In which case, he'll end up still hurting the Christian cause (and the name of Christ) because of some serious sins he'll eventually commit.
4. I've prayed that if he doesn't turn to Christ in good health (which I prefer), that God would make him sick so that either a) he realizes his need for Christ and converts, or b) dies so that he doesn't lead any more people to hell. Death by disease doesn't make one a martyr. Look how Hitchens has been pretty much forgotten by the atheist community. However, there is a sense in which Loftus' deconversion has purified the church by weeding out false converts.
I think it comes down to whether his desire for money OR intellectual respect (his pride) motivates him the most.
He knows there's no guarantee that if he returns to Christianity that he'll make lots of money. It's a big risk to return, but if it pays, it'll pay big. But that's unlikely.
Ultimately, I think his intellectual pride and the esteem of (at least some) people will keep him from returning to Christianity.
Especially since no one likes or trusts a continual flip flopper. You can't make money if no one trusts you.
Also, the lifestyle of unbelief and skepticism is much easier and pleasurable. Involving little to no sacrifice. It's intellectually easier too. Atheism (whether intellectual or practical) is the lazy man's religion. Many professing "Christians" are atheists practically. If Loftus' returns (truly by God's grace, OR as a fake), for integrity's sake he'll have to intellectually dismantle all of his OWN past arguments against Christianity.
He's invested too much of himself into his atheism. Therefore, I think if he ever does convert, it'll be because Christ has actually transformed his heart. In which case, he'll be 1. willing to endure ridicule and scorn (from both sides) for returning 2. willing to do the hard work of dismantling his past arguments for atheism (or at least humbly admitting other apologists have been, and are more capable than himself) 3. willing to live in relative obscurity such that if necessary, getting an honest, but humble job.
Annoyed Pinoy,
ReplyDeleteEspecially since no one likes or trusts a continual flip flopper. You can't make money if no one trusts you.
...
He's invested too much of himself into his atheism.
There's one problem with all this: you're actually trying to think this through, seeing the potential pitfalls, etc. Not exactly something this guy is particularly good at. Your "bad idea" is his "genius masterstroke". To Loftus, a brilliant plan is "nag semi-obscure apologist for a live debate. Get completely destroyed. Blog that the debate at least shows how seriously people take you. Profit!"
Not to mention, there's a very real possibility that this guy is going to hit a point where he's got nothing left to lose. It's looking increasingly obvious that he's never going to be the next Dawkins, or even the next PZ Myers for that matter. Even atheists have little use for him and are starting to get actively disdainful. I can see his mental to-do list arranged something like this:
"1: Convert to Christianity, write a book about it, make a lot of noise. See if THAT finally gets me fame and wealth.
2: If 1 doesn't pan out, apply for that busboy job at Denny's on the turnpike. Look into DeVry, TV repair program."
I guess this sums it up briefly: it's not like I think Loftus is going to make this move because he's just so smart and crafty. Pretty much the opposite.
nag semi-obscure apologist for a live debate. Get completely destroyed. Blog that the debate at least shows how seriously people take you. Profit!
ReplyDeleteHahaha.
Which apologist are you talking about, BTW? D'Souza? Wood?
I've prayed that if he doesn't turn to Christ in good health (which I prefer), that God would make him sick so that either a) he realizes his need for Christ and converts, or b) dies so that he doesn't lead any more people to hell
ReplyDeleteMay your god have mercy on your soul.
Rhology,
ReplyDeleteWhich apologist are you talking about, BTW? D'Souza? Wood?
Possibly both. Didn't he get creamed at both of them?
D'Souza isn't really obscure now, but at the time I believe he was more 'up and coming' than anything. I do recall this was back when Loftus had the gimmick of 'Review my book or you're a coward!' -> 'See, they're reviewing my book, they're taking me seriously!' -> 'They say my book sucks, only to keep people from reading it because it's just that powerful!'
Pinoy,
BTW, I just saw the 'prayed he gets sick' line. Personally, that's a line I never cross. I pray that God take care of things, but I think one should make a habit of leaving things at that. At least for me, that's not something to even suggest.
The Atheist Missionary said...
ReplyDeleteMay your god have mercy on your soul.
Just to clarify what I meant, I would prefer and pray that John Loftus would return to Christianity without the need for him getting sick. But if getting John sick is what's needed for God to get his attention, then that would be for John's ultimate good. I wouldn't wish anyone to be sick just for the sake of being sick.
Crude said...
ReplyDeleteBTW, I just saw the 'prayed he gets sick' line. Personally, that's a line I never cross. I pray that God take care of things, but I think one should make a habit of leaving things at that. At least for me, that's not something to even suggest.
I always submit my prayers to God's wisdom and will, so it's understood that I'm not asking based on my limited understanding or wisdom. The essence of the prayer is for God to do *whatever* is necessary to turn John's heart to Him for John's eternal sake as well as all those whom he affects or could affect.
I forgot to end the chain with the coup de grace.
ReplyDelete-> 'Why are they wrong? I can't explain THAT, I wrote a whole book to explain that. You'll have to buy and read the book to see that I'm right and they're wrong.'
LOL, Crude!!!
ReplyDeleteI noticed John blogged about my comment.
ReplyDeleteJohn and (especially) the other atheists commentators respond in a way that would be problematic for Arminian-like theologies, but not for Calvinist-like ones.
Didn't he get creamed at both of them?
ReplyDeleteBadly, yes, but not as bad as when he called into Gene Cook's Narrow Mind show and Paul Manata also called in. I haven't heard a destruction that complete this side of the Craig-Atkins debate.