Marian prayer is central to Catholic piety. If it's God's will that Christians pray to Mary, why didn't God simply tell us to pray to Mary? Why not a single verse in Scripture commanding Christians to pray to Mary?
Since we don't have that, Catholic apologists cobble together a Jack-that-house-built argument for Marian prayer. A chain of inferences like:
i) Jesus is God
ii) Mary is his mother
iii) That makes Mary the Mother of God
iv) Jesus is the king
v) That makes Mary the Queen Mother
vi) Honor your father and mother
vii) King Solomon genuflected to Bathsheba
viii) Therefore, Mary has Jesus on a leash. He comes running whenever she yanks the leash.
That argument is full of holes, but more to the point, it would make things so much simpler if there was at least one verse in Scripture which said: "Pray to Mary!"
hahaha. what a joke for a christian to insult a catholic about mary.
ReplyDeleteit would make things so much simpler if there was at least one verse in Scripture which said: "Pray to God the Trinity or that three persons are one God essence.
Hahaha. Who cares if you dont post my comments. You're not pro-truth.
But you can read my comments and know that I am right, triune.
Peace
No offense.
Thanks for unwittingly illustrating my point. There's loads of material in the Bible supporting the Trinity as well as prayer to God. In the Gospel of John we're directly told both that Jesus is God Incarnate and that we should pray for him.
DeleteThere's nothing remotely similar regarding Mary in Scripture. So you're attempted comparison unwittingly proves my point Hahaha.
Scripture needn't use patristic or conciliar language to teach the Trinity, Incarnation, deity of Christ, two natures of Christ, &c.
DeleteLikewise, my argument wasn't premised on a dichotomy between implicit and explicit teaching. Marian dogmas aren't justified by logical inferences, but illogical inferences.
Nope, more prominent triune scholars than you have admitted that the triune claims are based on implicit teachings, hints, allusions, and so on.
DeleteCan you cite any explicit passages that teach those triune claims?
Besides, why would nobody in the Bible ask the prophets, Jesus, or even the apostles to explain those triune claims, if indeed they were what they were teaching?
Nope, illogical for triunes just mean the same thing as mysterious.
Answer me this then:
1. Can you cite a specific instance in the Bible of something only God the Trinity can do or has done without any of the three divine persons involved?
2. Can your God the Trinity speak and act like one of the three divine persons?
3. Where's God the Trinity when you see the three divine persons?
4. Does each of the three divine persons have their own throne in heaven?
5. Did the the OT personalities see or describe God as one person, three persons, or one being?
6. Why would Jehovah save the OT Jews who were not trinitarians but were just monotheists?
Loads of material dont mean explicit teachings, maestro.
7. Why did Jesus not explicitly speak or teach about God the Trinity and the three person is one God situation?
8. Why did nobody do that?
9. Are you sure that the triune church never taught heresies in its official teachings?
10. Do you agree that the mystery behind your triune God will never be explained because according to CS Lewis only the fake religions are the simple ones?
Good, I am satisfied for now. Let us see here how smart you are, triune.
No offense. Peace.
Gil Christ, are you Catholic? Unitarian? Atheist? Something else?
DeleteGil Christ,
DeleteYour objections are confused at multiple levels:
1. My post didn't take objection to implicit teach. If prayer to Mary was a logical implication of Scripture, then Catholic practice would be justified. Notice I said the Catholic argument for Marian prayer is full of holes.
2. The Trinity, Incarnation, deity of Christ, &c. are based on both implicit and explicit teaching. The Trinity is a theological construct based on combining both implicit and explicit biblical teaching.
3. Your comparison is flawed at another level. Scripture commands us to pray to God. If the Trinity is God, then we are praying to the Trinity when we pray to God. We don't need a separate command to pray to the Trinity.
A hypothetical comparison would go like this:
Scripture commands us to pray to Mary
Scripture doesn't teach that Mary is the Queen of Heaven
If, however, Mary is the Queen of Heaven, then we pray to the Queen of Heaven when we pray to Mary. We don't need a separate command to pray to the Queen of Heaven. We only need a command to pray to Mary, in combination with the fact that she's the Queen of Heaven.
But the parallel doesn't hold in comparison with pray to the Trinity because (i) we're never commanded to pray to Mary; (ii) Mary isn't the Queen of Heaven.
4. I've debated more prominent unitarians than you (scores of debates with Dale Tuggy), so I don't need to repeat myself for dime-a-dozen unitarian. I debated the best you got (many times).
@Gil Christ
ReplyDeleteYou make an offensive post and then you say "No offense" at the end and that's supposed to make what you said okay? Your attitude throughout the entire post was condescending and offensive. Laughing mockingly at Steve's argument. I wouldn't blame Steve for being offended and I'm glad that everyone can see that you enjoy mocking people rather than having a dialogue with them.
Hahaha. I laugh at you for your ignorance. Hahaha. Just like what your triune God wanted you to be.
DeleteIsn't ignorance about your God both bliss and a blessing?
I have had numerous conversations online and in twitter with your kind, triune apologist.
Nobody's honest except one who admitted that his theology was trash. Then he was silent no more.
When you are proven wrong about your triune arguments, have the moral courage to admit that you are wrong. Admit that you're mistaken.
The reason I ask for you and your kind not to be offended because I understand that God has decided that you and your kind would see Yahweh as a three person in one God joke.
"No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day.
If you defend your faith and you're proven wrong, do you have the integrity to admit your mistakes? Nope, they're just mysteries.
Hahaha.
No offense.
Peace.
I would argue 2 points.
ReplyDelete1) If Mary was essential to the life of the church, why is she absent from the epistles? Could you imagine letters to the church from a Roman Catholic perspective today which don't mention Mary at all?
2) We have an actual story in the gospel where someone heaps praise on His mother and Jesus downplays it.
Agree in both counts
DeleteThis probably the same guy who trolled my blog Here.
ReplyDeleteWhen he got frustrated, he deleted all his comments in a tantrum. Fortunately I saved and archived all his comments Here. Though, it can only be read once downloaded and opened with a browser.
At one point he even admitted, "That is why I buttered you up in my earliest posts so you would dialogue with me." I guess he skipped buttering up the Triabloggers.
--Besides, why would nobody in the Bible ask the prophets, Jesus, or even the apostles to explain those triune claims, if indeed they were what they were teaching?--
ReplyDeleteThe reason they don't do so is because it's not an issue, but NOT for the reason you're thinking (i.e. "They never taught the Trinity!")
It's actually because the concepts of divine embodiment and multiplurality were widely accepted by Jews in the Second Temple period. Read the work and research of Alan F Segal, Daniel Boyarin, Benjamin D Sommer, Jacob Neusner, Michael Heiser and Larry Hurtado. The first four are Jewish by the way!
You don't see the Apostles trying to explain, justify and prove the embodied YHWH and the Trinity because their main audience already accepted these things as a given. It's similar to why they never bother to argue that, for example, the Torah originates from Moses and NOT from a series of redactors.
Trinitarian Christianity is the true continuation and heir of the Old Testament with its embodied, multipersonal YHWH - who is also the Malak (angel of) YHWH, who is identified as YHWH, yet can engage in conversation with YHWH like a separate person... exactly what we see with Jesus and The Father. Not post-Second Temple Judaism, Islam, Unitarianism or what-have-you.