Weinergate plays into a familiar narrative. However, Weinergate draws attention, not only to the familiar narrative of the cad, but the equally familiar narrative of the woman who stands by her man.
Not only do many men need to reexamine their priorities, but a certain percentage of women (I can’t put a figure on it) need to reexamine their priorities as well.
For it’s not just a male problem. Yes, some men are creeps. But you also have decent men who are passed over because some women don’t value decent men.
There are variations on this formula. There’s the familiar narrative of moth-like women who are irresistibly drawn to the flickering flame of the bad boy:
On a related note, you have women who marry up. The babe who marries the aging tycoon.
But you also have the phenomenon of women who don’t need to marry up. Rather, they can’t bring themselves to marry down.
Why did Maria Callas or Jackie Kennedy throw themselves at Aristotle Onassis? What did Ann Counter see in Bob Guccione, Jr.? What did Laura Ingraham see in Robert Torricelli?
Why did Maria Callas or Jackie Kennedy throw themselves at Aristotle Onassis? W
There are also studies which indicate women (at least some women) can be just a shallow as the stereotypical man in sizing up the opposite sex:
What’s the average guy supposed to think of this? The ordinary, decent, devoted, hardworking, conscientious schlump who’s looking for a mate, but doesn’t have movie star good looks, a dangerous streak, or the seven-digit income?
What’s the average guy supposed to think of this? The ordinary, decent, devoted, hardworking, conscientious schlump who’s looking for a mate, but doesn’t have movie star good looks, a dangerous streak, or the seven-digit income?
ReplyDeleteTry plastic surgery and a new job.
Hey, some women may be shallow but I can't think of many women that ever reach the creepiness factor that some men do. But maybe I need to follow Pelosi on Twitter.
Seriously.
Are philosophy majors "bad boys"?
ReplyDeleteSteven,
ReplyDeleteDepends on your philosophical outlook. If your favorite philosopher is Nietzsche, that makes you a bad boy–but if your favorite philosopher is Plotinus, that makes you a nancy boy. :-)
Carrie said...
ReplyDelete"Hey, some women may be shallow but I can't think of many women that ever reach the creepiness factor that some men do."
Except that you often have a symbiotic relationship between creepy men and the willing women who service them.
Except that you often have a symbiotic relationship between creepy men and the willing women who service them.
ReplyDeleteMaybe in some cases, but I don't think it's fair to compare women to men on this one.
Men have a much higher tendency to suffer from sexual sins, to points that are beyond comprehension. I do wonder theologically why that is.
But maybe this post is just a call for sympathy for all the schlumps out there and I just need to snicker privately :)
Carrie said:
ReplyDeleteTry plastic surgery and a new job.
Not sure if this is a joke? If not, I'd say many average guys can't afford plastic surgery. Also, many average guys are tied to their current jobs for various reasons.
"Men have a much higher tendency to suffer from sexual sins, to points that are beyond comprehension."
ReplyDeleteThat's true to a point, yet it's conveniently overlooked that they (usually) commit those sins *with somebody.* Weiner *exchanges* photos with a woman, but only Weiner is judged creepy. Clinton and Lewinsky... only Clinton is the jerk. You sort of have to wonder why that is.
Not sure if this is a joke?
ReplyDeleteOf course it was a joke!!
yet it's conveniently overlooked that they (usually) commit those sins *with somebody.*
Not in the case of pedophilia or the like, at least not a willing participant. But yes, in a case like Clinton two are involved.
But I still would hold someone like Weiner to a higher standard as a public official and as the older adult in some of the cases. Old men praying on young women is an issue.
Really, I'm not trying to get down on men here. I just don't think it's fair to try and deflect onto women in this case.
Carrie said:
ReplyDeleteOf course it was a joke!!
Hm, in addition to my average-guy-ness, I apparently also have to battle the problem of credulity.
"Old men preying on young women is an issue."
ReplyDeleteAt what point does an adult woman, become accountable through complicity? Isn't a "younger woman" capable of fending off the advances of an older man?
Also, does the same hold for older women who prey on younger men?
"Old men praying on young women is an issue."
ReplyDeleteSee what I mean? Why isn't looked at as young women praying on older men? You think Monical Lewinsky wasn't after something?
People! Grease and Crybaby were just movies.
ReplyDeleteI apparently also have to battle the problem of credulity.
ReplyDeleteSorry, my sarcasm gets lost in written form :)
At what point does an adult woman, become accountable through complicity?
Everyone is accountable. But I expect more from a 46 year old Congressman than a 20-something student.
Isn't a "younger woman" capable of fending off the advances of an older man?
I guess it depends on the situation. But I'm not following the logic. This *almost* starts sounding like the rape victim being blamed for wearing a short skirt.
I'm not saying that women are exempt from stupid, sinful behaviors. But I hate to see the stupidity, irresponsibility, and disgracefulness of what Weiner did as a Congressman in any way reduced because he found women to indulge him. I suppose if Weiner had been simply caught in an extramarital affair (on his own time), I wouldn't have a problem with equalizing the "creepiness".
Also, does the same hold for older women who prey on younger men?
Sure.
I realize I am in WAY over my head on a male-dominated blog so I may bow out soon. Plus I am terrified of going against Steve who I see as the "bad boy" of internet apologetics so naturally I am drawn to him. And he bears a striking resemblance to Cary Grant.
Why isn't looked at as young women praying on older men?
ReplyDeleteLouis, from what I have read so far, Weiner seemed to do most if not all of the initiating.
But yes, even if a 19 yo girl sent Weiner a lewd photo I would expect more from him as a 46 yo married man.
CARRIE SAID:
ReplyDelete"Plus I am terrified of going against Steve who I see as the 'bad boy' of internet apologetics so naturally I am drawn to him. And he bears a striking resemblance to Cary Grant."
My Harley is idling in your driveway, waiting for you to ride off with me into the sunset, where I have my Montana ranch.
At least one of the women was over 30, and they are both obligated to honor his marriage.
ReplyDeleteBut hey, it's all in good fun... my comments I mean. :)
My Harley is idling in your driveway, waiting for you to ride off with me into the sunset, where I have my Montana ranch.
ReplyDeleteJust give me a few minutes to finish up my tweets to Beiber and I'll be out.
It is disgusting. I am disgusted.
ReplyDeleteI can't find my way out of Romans 7 on my own.
Thanks be to God for His Gifts, calling and election.
In the mean time, since this article is here, published for those who follow Triablogue, I'd offer some verses for reminder, if perchance you hadn't thought of these sorts of things in awhile or ever?
Psa 119:22 Take away from me scorn and contempt, for I have kept your testimonies.
Psa 119:23 Even though princes sit plotting against me, your servant will meditate on your statutes.
Psa 119:24 Your testimonies are my delight; they are my counselors.
Psa 119:25 My soul clings to the dust; give me life according to your word!
Psa 119:26 When I told of my ways, you answered me; teach me your statutes!
...
1Co 7:1 Now concerning the matters about which you wrote: "It is good for a man not to have sexual relations with a woman."
1Co 7:2 But because of the temptation to sexual immorality, each man should have his own wife and each woman her own husband.
1Co 7:3 The husband should give to his wife her conjugal rights, and likewise the wife to her husband.
1Co 7:4 For the wife does not have authority over her own body, but the husband does. Likewise the husband does not have authority over his own body, but the wife does.
1Co 7:5 Do not deprive one another, except perhaps by agreement for a limited time, that you may devote yourselves to prayer; but then come together again, so that Satan may not tempt you because of your lack of self-control.
Now, of course, those verses, as all the rest, are meaningless to those who have not received from Him Gifts, a calling or election!
1Pe 5:8 Be sober-minded; be watchful. Your adversary the devil prowls around like a roaring lion, seeking someone to devour.
1Pe 5:9 Resist him, firm in your faith, knowing that the same kinds of suffering are being experienced by your brotherhood throughout the world.
1Pe 5:10 And after you have suffered a little while, the God of all grace, who has called you to his eternal glory in Christ, will himself restore, confirm, strengthen, and establish you.
1Pe 5:11 To him be the dominion forever and ever. Amen.
natamllc
ReplyDeleteDo you have relationship issues?
The argument being put here that men are "more creepy than women" is amazingly naive, and strikes me as buried in sentiment.
ReplyDeleteAnyone who works with young women; anyone who works in dysfunctional, working-class suburbs; anyone who is familiar with the mores of the "modern girl", will attest that women are quite equal to their male counterparts in the sexual department. Indeed, some girls will offer their bodies for anything; it is like a credit card that never runs dry.
Other women will kick their own offspring out of their homes at the tender age of 14, so as to retain the sexual favours of their current boyfriend.
It seems to me that women are somehow exempted from their poor sexual behaviour because it is done to obtain pecuniary gain or other advantages. Somehow, it is equated to work, in some people's minds, and the buyer is made fully responsible. This then leads to the ridiculous idea that men have sex hyper-drive are live in obedience to it constantly.
In fact, neither gender is better than the other in the sexual department. If someone thinks that is the case, then it is tantamount to saying that God has set an un-level playing field and made it harder for men to walk with him in holiness and overcome their "sinful desires that war against the soul" than for women.
The argument being put here that men are "more creepy than women" is amazingly naive, and strikes me as buried in sentiment.
ReplyDeleteHey Jason, if you read through my comments again I think you will see that I tried to temper what I said so as not to bash men. However, if I were to try and make a case that men are the majority offenders in sexual crimes like pedophilia and incest (the truly creepy stuff), I think that statistics would be on my side.
BUT, I'm not looking to make that argument because it's beyond the scope of this post (and I apologize if I am responsible for bringing it up) and because there are many wonderful men on this blog who I respect and I wouldn't want to be misinterpreted.
then it is tantamount to saying that God has set an un-level playing field and made it harder for men to walk with him in holiness and overcome their "sinful desires that war against the soul" than for women.
Hardly. It would just say that men struggle more with sexual sin while women struggle more with some other sin. As far as sinning overall, the two sexes are on an equal playing field.
And I would like to say A LOT more about your comment Jason but I won't as it isn't productive.
This really plays into the liberal outlook on sin. Weiner did wrong. To try to "look behind" that and blame it on someone else is to downplay the seriousness of sin. It's a copout, like trying to say a hoodlum is not really that bad (I think Lewis says that somewhere in his book on psalms), just mistaken, or innocent because he had such a bad upbringing, or because it's "genetic" or similar bs. Let's not slip into inconsistent liberal deconstructionist nonsense.
ReplyDeleteHowever, if I were to try and make a case that men are the majority offenders in sexual crimes like pedophilia and incest (the truly creepy stuff), I think that statistics would be on my side.
ReplyDeleteAssuming for the moment that this is true (and agreeably is a bit beyond the scope of this post), Carrie, you're now revising what you said. Now you're saying that men commit more of a particular kind of sexual sin, not that they commit sexual sin more often than women- Women just commit sexual sin differently- which would lead you to agreeing with the jist of what Jason said.
By the way, incest and pedophilia are THE 'truly creepy' sexual sins? Everything else that is done that may fall into the female category of sinful sexual propensities isn't also 'truly creepy'?
Hardly. It would just say that men struggle more with sexual sin while women struggle more with some other sin. As far as sinning overall, the two sexes are on an equal playing field.
Again, assuming for the moment that it's true that women don't struggle with sexual sin as much as men, what is the female sinful propensity that is equivalent to the (supposed) male sinful propensity of pedophilia and incest?
Papal,
ReplyDeleteyou asked if I have relationship issues?
Yes.
Why are you asking?
Did you need to confess something?
Now you're saying that men commit more of a particular kind of sexual sin, not that they commit sexual sin more often than women- Women just commit sexual sin differently
ReplyDeleteNo, that is not what I am saying.
By the way, incest and pedophilia are THE 'truly creepy' sexual sins? Everything else that is done that may fall into the female category of sinful sexual propensities isn't also 'truly creepy'?
Nope, not saying that either.
Again, assuming for the moment that it's true that women don't struggle with sexual sin as much as men, what is the female sinful propensity that is equivalent to the (supposed) male sinful propensity of pedophilia and incest?
Don't know, don't care.
This was never a male versus female thing for me but it feels like it has turned into that. I am sorry for my part in that and I am moving on.