Thursday, June 14, 2018

I Want Consistency Too

In his condemning of Islamicize Me, James White said https://youtu.be/eUUDEZz0yiY?t=52m1s

It is the portrayal of obviously sinful action. 

Yet on Twitter, someone jokingly suggested that he show clips from Islamicize Me to the class at TMS, and White responded (source):

There are few of the episodes I could actually show in public. The adoption one possibly.
Because Dr. White has been so adamant that consistency is one of his primary goals, then we must conclude by this that he believes kicking your adopted son out of the house in the middle of the night with no shoes on his feet is not obviously sinful.  I mean, if it was obviously sinful then surely he would not have excluded it.

I wonder if his elders know he holds to that position?

12 comments:

  1. (Steve, if you're willing to post my response, I hope you will.)

    I find the "Islamasize Me" videos utterly repulsive, within its current context. I saw one video *before* I read the entries here or listened to White's responses. I have no stake in David Wood, or in James White. But here's what I think is being missed:

    1. There's no doubt a lot of us have some issues with White. He's very bright, but he's also boastful, sarcastic, and smug. I wish his behavior was different
    much of the time, especially on DL. There are, however, times when his behavior is very pleasant. All that to say, if you have a bone to pick with White, try to
    separate your issues with what he's trying to get across on this topic. Its important.

    2. I think White brought up issues that are secondary. He's got the right idea, but has missed out on targeting it well. Again, if we put our distaste for White aside, he's trying to get at a core issue that's getting missed.

    3. I work at a job with a Muslim theologian. I will not tell him about these videos. I'm completely aware of Islamic theological problems, but that's why I said I objected to the videos *in their present context.*

    4. So lets get to it. The core issue is how to discuss, reveal, and demonstrate the futility of the Islamic faith. As a Christian, I'm duty-bound to present the case for the Gospel *a certain way.* I'm responsible. That's the context that many of us are in when we talk about these videos. We are expecting that in the course of public dialogue about a volatile subject like this, there had better be some proper decorum.

    That's different than producing a stupid, useless, not-funny video under the radar, and posting it on, say, Babylon Bee. I thought David Wood was representing Christ in an honorable way in public discourse. So with expectations like that, I soundly reject the attempts made by the producers of those videos as being entirely inappropriate, highly offensive, juvenile, and I don't believe for a moment that the burden of proof is on me.

    Having said that, I'd laugh my head off if I watched a video at a party, or a private gathering where "ministry" is not the focus. In other words, at best,
    "Islamacize Me" is cheap, maudlin entertainment, and if you like that sort of thing, have at it, but make sure its not attached to witnessing for Christ.

    So lets get back to my Muslim co-worker. Do I think for a nano-second that somehow these videos might persuade him to re-think his religion? Nope.

    White was probably trying to get at the heart of how we portray 1 Cor. 13 to a
    highly violent and objectionable religion. Unfortunately, our personal take on White's character is getting mixed in to an otherwise critically important issue on how we communicate our disdain over the evils inherent to Islam. I submit there has to be a better way.

    Finally, there is a double-standard here. Apparently, White's smug, condescending attitude is put down, while David Wood and Robert Spencer can somehow get away with all sorts of pathetic attempts at wit, repartee, and sarcasm. I reject this kind of behavior in public discourse from *both* sides.

    At least White is attempting to bring civility here. He's not doing a good job arguing his case, and I'm sure I'm not either, but there it is. I really find myself more attracted and interested in men who are "gentlemen" all the time. Its much more classy than what I saw from David Wood and the others.

    Finally, there's a cultural assumption that we are free to create crass videos because, after all, we live in SoCal, or near Hollywood, or wherever. Hey, this is 2018, contemporary America. We're cool, and can express ourselves in cool, clever ways. That's fine if you're 12 or 13. I expected more from David Wood and I'm realizing now that I'll never get what I wanted from him. (And, I admit, I'm not getting what I want from James White either!) Such is life.

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    Replies
    1. I'll comment just on this part for now, since I've addressed most of the other comments in previous posts:

      "Apparently, White's smug, condescending attitude is put down, while David Wood and Robert Spencer can somehow get away with all sorts of pathetic attempts at wit, repartee, and sarcasm."

      To be clear, I couldn't care less about White's attitude, other than that it highlights some of the inconsistencies he pushing. In other words, I have no problem with White's wit, repartee, or sarcasm; just his double standards.

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    2. I don't have a stake in who is right or wrong either. I think it's possible both White and Wood could be in error when it comes to the issues.

      But keep in mind it was White who attacked Wood first. And White didn't only attack Wood on the issues. White attacked Wood personally too. And White continues to personally attack Wood.

      So yes it'd be really great to put aside "personalities" and focus on the issues. That's what many people are trying to do! But it's White who keeps interjecting personal issues into the debate. He's the main person doing this. He makes everything about himself in comparison to others. Making himself the white knight in shining armor for apologetics and everyone else snipers who are spitting on him etc. Did you see his latest FB and DL? White is the one saying how immature and rebellious people are. Maybe that is true, maybe not, but the point is White keeps turning the whole debate into a debate not just over the issues but over personalities too.

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    3. >>>So lets get back to my Muslim co-worker. Do I think for a nano-second that somehow these videos might persuade him to re-think his religion? Nope.

      You cannot know that for sure. But you are likely to ruin your relationship with him - which perhaps goes to show that this series is not for use in every circumstance. Or for every type of Muslim.

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    4. >>>Finally, there is a double-standard here. Apparently, White's smug, condescending attitude is put down, while David Wood and Robert Spencer can somehow get away with all sorts of pathetic attempts at wit, repartee, and sarcasm.

      I cannot speak for others but my main issues with White are his virtue signaling, and his inconsistencies. I dont have a problem with sarcasm, if it is founded on some fact.

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    5. James McCloud

      "I cannot speak for others but my main issues with White are his virtue signaling, and his inconsistencies."

      I agree with this!

      Also, can I say, I just appreciate good satire. I mean if someone is going to satirize, then best to do it right! :) Wood can do satire very well, he has the wit, humor, and charisma for it, whereas White isn't really adept at satire let alone good satire. He's more literal-minded.

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    6. Wood (and his wife, Mary) is/are gifted in satire. What is "good" satire and what is bad is a matter of personal opinion. I find Babylon Bee to be brilliant in what they do, but the original poster thinks they are stupid, useless, not-funny.

      For example: I find the following to be excellent satire-

      https://babylonbee.com/news/kim-jong-un-criticized-for-meeting-with-nation-that-has-killed-60-million-babies/

      David Wood would have been great at Babylon Bee. :)

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    7. I have a lot of admiration for the Babylon Bee too! :) I often find their stuff hilarious. Great satire.

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    8. Maybe the Babylon Bee is a litmus test for whether someone will appreciate Wood's humor in the Islamicize Me videos? :)

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    9. Corey - overall, that was very good.

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    11. >>>Maybe the Babylon Bee is a litmus test for whether someone will appreciate Wood's humor in the Islamicize Me videos? :)

      Indeed. You made me remember my Chem-lab days. We used the method of elimination alot. Speaking of tests, another positive test/variable could be being a regular audience and fan of White. (But I am just being cheeky now - for fun. lol)

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