Tuesday, October 08, 2024

Potential Objections To The Immediacy Of Justification

I've written before about the Biblical theme of the nearness of redemption, the concept that you can be justified at any moment through a means you always have access to. That theme is inconsistent with baptismal regeneration and every other form of justification through works.

But somebody could raise an objection along the lines that what these passages (2 Corinthians 6:2, etc.) are addressing is the nearness of starting the process of getting justified, not obtaining justification itself. There are some problems with that view.

The passages use language suggesting they're about obtaining justification, not just starting to head in the direction of obtaining it. 2 Corinthians 5:20 mentions being "reconciled to God". As I've said before, Paul isn't satisfied with "the time" and "the day" in the Old Testament passage he cites in 6:2, so he goes on to accompany those phrases with "now" two different times. And what is it that we can get now? Salvation, not just starting down the path toward salvation. Similarly, what Paul is addressing in Romans 10 is "salvation" (verse 1), "the end of the law for righteousness" (verse 4), being "saved" (verse 9), "resulting in righteousness" (verse 10). He's addressing the accomplishment of those things, not just beginning a multistep process that ends in obtaining them. Romans 10 is about reconciling people to God, bringing the gospel to them and how they can obtain redemption through it. It's unlikely that Paul would only discuss the beginning of a multistep process of receiving justification and leave out the rest. (For a response to the idea that the confessing with the mouth in Romans 10 is a means of justification or warrants including baptism, see here.) Likewise, Paul's comments in Acts 17:27 make more sense if they're about finding God (which includes soteriology, though it isn't limited to that), not just starting the process of finding him. That Acts passage illustrates how the theme of the nearness of redemption is about the nearness of reconciliation with God, not just the nearness of beginning a process that will eventually lead to reconciliation.

Any interpretation of any document is a matter or probability, not certainty. So, somebody could always appeal to a possible alternative interpretation. You can always argue that an author had one or more qualifiers in mind that he didn't spell out, that he was being hyperbolic, or whatever. But the possibility of such an alternative interpretation doesn't make it equally likely or more likely than the interpretation it's competing with. It could be that, in the context I'm addressing in this post, Paul only intended to address how we begin the process of being reconciled to God rather than addressing how the process is completed, even though he used the language of completion. People do that sort of thing sometimes. But the language of completion makes more sense in a context involving completion. And appealing to a less natural interpretation becomes increasingly problematic the more you do it. There's a cumulative effect, including within a single passage, as we see with the multiple aspects of Romans 10 that most naturally are interpreted in a way that's inconsistent with baptismal regeneration.

A larger point should be made here about the evidence pertaining to baptismal regeneration in general. There's only a small handful of passages that allegedly affirm baptismal regeneration, and there are a lot of problems with how advocates of the concept interpret those passages. See here regarding 1 Peter 3:21, for example. The evidence against baptismal regeneration is much weightier than the evidence for it.

In this post and elsewhere, I've discussed how problematic passages like these ones in Romans 10 and 2 Corinthians 6 are for baptismal regeneration. In closing, I want to summarize some of the points I've been making in response to three potential views an advocate of baptismal regeneration could take.

First, let's consider a scenario in which these passages are thought to be addressing how we begin the process of moving toward justification rather than addressing the completion of the process. That sort of interpretation has the advantage of getting around the evidence that baptism isn't included in these passages. But it creates other problems. Since completing the process of obtaining justification is a more significant issue than starting the process of moving toward justification, somebody like Paul is more likely to be addressing the former than the latter. Why would Paul want to approach justification in the latter way to begin with, especially at as much length as he does in Romans 10? Why give so much space to discussing how to start the process of getting justified, without going on to mention the rest of the process? Furthermore, if completing the process of obtaining justification isn't what's being addressed, why are multiple types of language suggesting completion used over and over again?

Second, what about a scenario that claims baptism is involved in these passage? That interpretation has the problems I've described elsewhere. In Romans 10 alone, there are a few different contexts (and a larger number of instances within those contexts) in which baptism is conspicuous by its absence. It's also absent in the other relevant passages. And, as I've discussed elsewhere, the exclusion of works at the end of Romans 9 and the beginning of chapter 10 is most naturally taken to exclude baptism. Additionally, the appeal to the nearness of redemption in Romans 10:8-11 doesn't just involve chronological nearness, but also nearness in the sense that the means of obtaining justification is always immediately available (faith in the heart). It would undermine Paul's argument if he was combining that inward means of justification with an outward work (or sacrament, rite, or whatever you want to call it), like baptism. Faith alone, faith apart from baptism, makes the most sense of what Paul says in that context. Even if you think adding baptism can be reconciled with what Paul says, that wouldn't change the fact that adding baptism is a weaker explanation of Paul's comments. (Remember what I said above about how we're looking for the best explanation, not just a possible one.) Then there's the fact that in 2 Corinthians 6, Paul's emphatic appeal to how now is the time of salvation likewise is undermined by adding baptism and makes the most sense if faith alone, apart from baptism, is in view.

Third, what if an advocate of baptismal regeneration were to appeal to a hyperbolic interpretation? Depending on whether he's not including baptism in these passages or is including it, his interpretation would be subject to what I said about one of those two scenarios above. And there has to be a warrant for taking something as hyperbole. We don't begin with a default assumption that hyperbole is being used. So, what's the reason for thinking hyperbole is being used in a relevant way in these passages? When Paul uses the emphatic "now" in 2 Corinthians 6, for example, a non-hyperbolic interpretation is consistent with how we see people being justified throughout the Old Testament era, during Jesus' public ministry, with Cornelius and his associates in Acts 10, with the Galatians in Galatians 3:2, etc. Since a non-hyperbolic interpretation makes so much sense in the abstract and fits so well with salvation history, why are we supposed to think we should resort to a hyperbolic interpretation? Furthermore, why would anybody use the sort of forceful language Paul uses in 2 Corinthians 6 (or Romans 10) to describe the immediacy of being justified through baptism? It's not a form of justification that has much to do with immediacy. Many of the modern advocates of baptismal regeneration wait weeks or months to baptize people after they came to faith. That doesn't really bring the language of 2 Corinthians 6 to mind. Baptisms did tend to occur closer to the time of coming to faith in the earliest years of Christianity, but even that shorter passing of time doesn't warrant the sort of strong language about immediacy that we see in passages like Romans 10 and 2 Corinthians 6 (both immediacy in terms of being justified through a means that's always available to us and immediacy in the sense of chronology). And, to repeat what I said earlier, what we're after here is the best explanation, not just a possible one. A hyperbolic interpretation of a passage like 2 Corinthians 6 would be a weaker explanation than seeing the passage as a reference to faith alone.

One of the reasons why the early Christians put so much emphasis on the immediacy of justification probably was that the immediacy component provides such a contrast to the alternatives that were offered by their opponents, such as their Jewish opponents and the Judaizers. Being justified immediately upon faith offers a strong contrast to being justified through a multistep process involving faith and one or more works, like circumcision or baptism.

15 comments:

  1. I suspect that a Roman Catholic would assimilate these to the "baptism of desire" theory--namely, the idea that anyone who seeks salvation sincerely will desire baptism, as soon as he knows about it and is able to obtain it, and that it is that desire that counts for his regeneration even if he can't obtain baptism immediately. To me that's always seemed ad hoc if one is *really* committed to baptismal regeneration.

    Though I would agree with the Catholics (and hopefully all Christians would agree) that if someone doesn't want to be baptized but claims to be a Christian believer there's something wrong. Sort of like a couple who say that they are really committed to each other but refuse to get married. I've even recently heard of some "churches" that refuse to perform water baptism and don't encourage converts to be baptized. That was a shock to me. Never heard of that till this past year.

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    1. An advocate of a baptism of desire view would have to argue for the existence of a baptism of desire and that all of the relevant passages are referring to it. There's no reason to conclude that any of the passages are referring to a baptism of desire, much less that all of them are doing so. When Catholics refer to a baptism of desire, they have an exception to the rule in mind, such as a person who dies while traveling to be baptized. As I mentioned in my original post, the Romans 10 context is about bringing the gospel to people in general, not an exceptional situation, much less the exception involved with a baptism of desire in particular. The contexts in Acts 17 and 2 Corinthians 6 are likewise not about the exceptional circumstances involved in a Catholic understanding of the baptism of desire. All three of these passages I've cited (and Hebrews 4, which I've discussed elsewhere, but not here) refer to broader groups than those involved in a baptism of desire. Somebody could argue that these passages were written with certain qualifiers in mind that would align the passages with a baptism of desire, but that sort of appeal to alleged qualifiers would have the problems described in my original post.

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    2. The modern RC church is, functionally, pretty strongly inclusivist. Because the theory is that God has granted to the Pope and to the Magisterium the power to interpret Scripture authoritatively, they can stretch concepts like the baptism of desire to the point that they become more a default position than an exception, even if they were originally spoken of as an exception. My guess is that they would say not that those passages about immediate justification are *referring* to the baptism of desire, but rather that the baptism of desire is tacitly *included* in the theological reach of such passages, so that it even can apply to people who haven't even been told (for whatever reason) that they should be baptized!

      To be fair, I myself have a somewhat non-reformed soteriology which doesn't make a *sharp* distinction between justification and sanctification, and I have some inclusivist leanings, though I'm definitely not a universalist. This means that I'm in somewhat of the same position as the RC here, even though I deny baptismal regeneration. I have to talk about the *normal* means of justification (hearing the word, accepting Jesus, believing creedal Christianity, committing oneself to Christ) while holding out hope for non-normal means for, e.g., those who have had no opportunity in this life to hear about Jesus. Because the latter situation is (even in 2024, with worldwide means of communication being so strong) still pretty widespread, I suppose I would have to admit that this "exceptional" scenario (God granting an opportunity to believe after death) may apply to millions of people.

      What I would say to that is simply that epistemologically, that's still a mere hope (as it's not taught at all clearly in Scripture) and that we shouldn't presume upon an abnormal means. Hence we should regard those who believe false religions as being in serious danger of condemnation and should seek to win them to Christ. And of course I could be wrong even in my partial inclusivism.
      I'm bringing up my own views here just to illustrate that one can treat an abnormal means as included in the broad ambit of a passage's *application* to real-world cases while not holding that the passage was intended to *refer* to that application (e.g., the RC baptism of desire).

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    3. I've been responding to advocates of baptismal regeneration in general, not just Catholics. And many proponents of baptismal regeneration haven't been inclusivists.

      You wrote:

      "I'm bringing up my own views here just to illustrate that one can treat an abnormal means as included in the broad ambit of a passage's *application* to real-world cases while not holding that the passage was intended to *refer* to that application (e.g., the RC baptism of desire)."

      If a passage like Romans 10 isn't referring to a baptism of desire, why are we supposed to think a baptism of desire is included in the passage's application? Remember, as I said above, the issue here is how we make the most sense of these passages, not merely a possible reading. And if the passages aren't referring to a baptism of desire, then what are they referring to under a Catholic interpretation or the interpretation of an advocate of baptismal regeneration more broadly?

      The Biblical passages I've cited are addressing explicit faith in Christ in response to an explicit presentation of the gospel, apparently without the involvement of baptism. (I explained earlier why I think baptism isn't involved.) I don't know of any reason to think the mainstream view in Roman Catholicism or among advocates of baptismal regeneration in general is that people are normally justified through faith, apart from baptism, under the circumstances addressed in the passages in question.

      You refer to being in "somewhat of the same position as the RC here", but then go on to refer to how you reject baptismal regeneration. If you consider it normative for people in the circumstances these passages describe to be justified apart from baptism, then you're in a significantly different position than a Catholic.

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    4. Yeah, I was making a possibly unclear analogy. So, take for example the passage that says that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you'll be saved. Aside from quibbles (and I do think they are quibbles) to the effect that this gives a sufficient but not a necessary condition for baptism, here would be an analogue to my own partial inclusivism: Suppose for the sake of the argument that God gives some people a chance to accept Jesus after death. And to make the example as sympathetic as possible, suppose that these are people who die as infants. So it's not even a matter of their being older heathens who have never heard, which raise a whole bunch of other questions. (E.g. Did they follow the light they were given as well as they could, per Romans 1?) Suppose that at death God gives these infant persons a more developed capacity, and informs them of the great truths of the gospel, and they accept Jesus then.

      Now, I doubt that Paul was *referring* to a post-mortem revelation to infants when he wrote that verse! But perhaps it could be a legitimate *application* of the verse to particular circumstances, because it would still amount to a case where everyone who has eternal union with God also explicitly confesses Jesus Christ. So there's nobody in heaven, or in the new heaven and the new earth, who is saying, "Jesus? Who is he? Never heard of him." That's an example of what I mean by an application that wasn't in the mind of the author when he wrote.

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  2. Oops, typo: I should have written "sufficient but not necessary condition for salvation."

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    1. I don't see how you're connecting your analogy in a relevant way to how an advocate of baptismal regeneration would explain these Biblical passages. Why don't you describe, without appealing to an analogy, how you think an advocate of baptismal regeneration would provide an explanation of these passages that's equal to or better than what I've offered? If you agree with me that the passages seem to be inconsistent with baptismal regeneration, and you're commenting on one or more subjects other than what I've been focused on in this thread, then it would be good to get that clarification.

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    2. Short version: Yes, I agree that your interpretation of those passages is correct and that shoehorning "baptism of desire" in there is ad hoc. *But*, if one is even a little bit inclusivist, the Catholic can try to run a tu quoque. He can say, "I count people as being baptized even when they aren't literally baptized in this life, so as to hold on to baptismal regeneration. You, inclusivist but anti-baptismal-regeneration person, count people as 'believing' even when they don't literally believe in this life, so as to hold on to the claim that belief is necessary for salvation. So you're just as ad hoc as I am as far as what's necessary for salvation."

      A way to avoid this is to reject both baptismal regeneration and any form of inclusivism. Then one is never counting people as doing things that they don't literally do in this life. The cost there is just being accused of having too harsh of a soteriology. I have a different way of answering the attempted tu quoque there, but I won't get into that to keep this comment short. (Apologies if this shows up in addition to a longer comment to the same effect, but I can't tell if that one posted.)

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  3. I think their approach is a poor use of those passages. I think (as you do) that on the face of it those passages are contrary to baptismal regeneration and that it is ad hoc to bring in the baptism of desire. My only point is that if one is any kind of inclusivist, even a hopeful inclusivist, one has to bring in some kind of ad hoc theorizing about passages that appear to be saying, "Such-and-such is both necessary and sufficient for salvation." So, belief in Jesus and confession with one's mouth is both necessary and sufficient for salvation. Well, oops, there are millions of people who don't get the chance to do that, through no fault of their own, so we have to add a theory for them in which they are "counted" as doing that, even tho' they haven't literally done it in this life.

    Baptismal regeneration guy thinks baptism (properly administered) is both necessary and sufficient for salvation. You, completely understandably and legitimately, bring up passages that seem to be saying that belief and confession are (at least) sufficient for salvation. Baptismal regeneration guy says, well, okay, but there are lots of people who don't have the opportunity to get baptized, so we're just going to dub/count people who believe and confess but aren't baptized as "having the baptism of desire" even if they haven't been told about baptism, even if they aren't baptized yet, as long as they aren't *opposing* baptism.

    And *unless* you take the hard line that belief and confession are also *necessary* for salvation (which maybe you do), baptismal regeneration guy can run a tu quoque if you reject *his* ad hoc theory by saying, "Look, for babies and/or people who have never heard of Jesus, you're *already* introducing an ad hoc theory that they can be counted as 'believing' even though they don't believe and confess in this life, because God gives them a postmortem chance to believe. So why can't I introduce an ad hoc theory that they count as having 'baptism' even though they don't get baptized in this life?"

    That tu quoque is the connection I'm suggesting. Now, a way around that would be to take a position against *both* baptismal regeneration *and* any kind of inclusivism whatsoever, thus avoiding the need for any ad hoc theories at all in which people are "counted" as doing something they haven't literally done while in this life. On that theological view, nobody gets counted as having been baptized if they haven't literally been baptized (but that's ok because you reject baptismal regeneration anyway) and also nobody gets counted as believing if they haven't literally believed while in this life. Babies who die go to hell (maybe a mild kind of hell or whatever, like the Catholic limbo); heathen who don't believe and confess go to hell. Etc.

    So then there would be no tu quoque the baptismal regeneration guy can use. He could only say that your soteriology is overly harsh/stringent or something like that.

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    1. I'm going to address your comments, Lydia, but also use the opportunity to address another approach an advocate of baptismal regeneration might take. I wanted to see if you were going to take that approach, but you didn't, so I'll address your view and the other one.

      One of the issues involved is what context is being addressed in the Biblical passages under consideration. All of them seem to be focused on this earthly life (e.g., the reference to where God has placed us on earth in Acts 17, the references to how Jewish people have been responding to the gospel in Romans 10, the references to sending people like evangelists and missionaries to reach the lost, the chronological immediacy in 2 Corinthians 6 and Hebrews 4). In Romans 10, Paul begins with a discussion of people who seem to be able to understand and respond to Divine revelation, such as understanding and following the Jewish law. He goes on to refer to bringing the gospel to people who are able to understand it and respond to it. He doesn't seem to be addressing infants, people who are mentally handicapped in some relevant way, any sort of postmortem justification scenario, etc. His focus seems to be on those who are able to understand and respond to the gospel in this life. What he says in a passage like Romans 10 can have implications for other scenarios to some extent, but that isn't his focus.

      Somebody can believe that justification occurs in other contexts, such as salvation for all those who die in infancy, while acknowledging that justification only occurs in the context Paul is addressing in Romans 10 (or wherever else) through the means Paul describes. An argument for justification in some other context wouldn't have to be ad hoc. There could be evidence for that sort of justification outside of passages like Romans 10 or through a combination of one or more of the passages I'm addressing and material elsewhere. I've argued in other posts for universal infant salvation through a combination of Biblical and patristic evidence, for example. The fact that Paul isn't addressing infant salvation in Romans 10 doesn't mean that my position is ad hoc.

      By contrast, in passages like Romans 10, Paul is addressing a context in which baptism is supposed to be necessary under baptismal regeneration. In other words, under my view, the lack of reference to infant salvation in Romans 10 makes sense in the context Paul is addressing. The lack of reference to baptism, along with multiple lines of evidence suggesting its exclusion, doesn't make sense if baptismal regeneration is true. You referred to "people who don't have the opportunity to get baptized" under a baptismal regeneration view of Romans 10, but the passage isn't about people who don't have an opportunity to be baptized. The context is broader, for reasons I've already discussed. The tu quoque you referred to depends on parallel circumstances between the position of the advocate of baptismal regeneration and the position of somebody who believes in something like universal infant salvation, but there isn't a relevant parallel.

      And I want to reiterate what I said above about the confession referred to in Romans 10. I don't think the passage is saying that we're justified through confession. Earlier, I linked a post in which I discussed the issue.

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    2. I want to move on now to another approach an advocate of baptismal regeneration might take. I thought you may have had this approach or something similar in mind, but it looks like you didn't.

      It could be argued that baptismal regeneration allows for people to be justified without baptism under enough circumstances as to result in a majority of the redeemed being justified apart from baptism. If you add up everybody justified apart from baptism who died in infancy, who was mentally handicapped in a relevant way, who experienced postmortem justification, etc., that number of people is higher than the number justified through baptism. Therefore, Paul and the other Biblical sources speak as if justification apart from baptism is normative because of the larger number of people who will have been justified in that manner.

      There are a few problems that come to mind with that sort of approach:

      - The advocate of baptismal regeneration would have to hold and argue for all of the beliefs involved (the other contexts in which justification occurs, that the justification occurs through faith alone in those other contexts, that the number justified through faith alone is larger than the number justified through baptism).

      - It's unlikely that the Biblical sources involved in these passages were expecting their audiences to have all of the relevant qualifiers in mind, without making further effort to move them in the direction of thinking that way. Paul, for example, was able and willing to add qualifiers and discuss issues in significant depth elsewhere, like all of the relational scenarios he refers to in 1 Corinthians 7. If Paul had things like infant salvation and postmortem justification in mind in a passage like Romans 10, he could have kept the context more ambiguous or could have specified that he had such issues in mind. It's doubtful that people like the Roman Christians or the Corinthian Christians would have been taking Paul's comments with the relevant qualifiers in mind or that Paul would have expected them to.

      - The kind of interpretation I'm criticizing here would involve a mismatch between the context of justification somebody like Paul is addressing and the means of justification being addressed. For reasons like the ones mentioned earlier, Paul seems to be focused on a particular earthly context. So, why would he take a means of justification primarily derived from other contexts (other contexts on earth and afterlife contexts) and place it in the context he's focused on? That sort of discontinuity is possible, but continuity is more likely. In other words, Paul isn't suggesting that justification apart from baptism is the norm only if you include other scenarios, like infant salvation and postmortem justification. It's the norm in the context he's describing, even though it shouldn't be the norm if baptismal regeneration is correct.

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    3. Regarding whether and when your posts show up, every post from a non-administrator goes into moderation automatically after a thread has been up for three days. The post has been registered, but it's in moderation status (in a sort of moderation folder, waiting to be approved) rather than being immediately available to see publicly.

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  4. " It's the norm in the context he's describing, even though it shouldn't be the norm if baptismal regeneration is correct." That's a very interesting point. Apologies if you've already addressed this, but would you take the context there, including "How will they hear without a preacher and how will they preach unless they be sent?" to suggest on the face of it that those who don't hear of Jesus will *not* be saved? I have to admit that that is the prima facie meaning, though not one I'm fond of!

    I wonder also to what extent some of this is moot, since the apostolic model seems to have been for very quick baptism, without even a several-week period of catechesis. E.g. Crowds on the day of Pentecost, Philippian jailor. So if Paul is assuming as shared background knowledge with his audience that everybody who believes and confesses will be urged to get baptized immediately, it might be very much like the case of marriage and taking vows before witnesses. There might be really unusual circumstances (a couple stranded on a desert island) who could get married metaphysically just by taking vows in the sight of God, but for the most part you aren't metaphysically married if you haven't taken vows before at least one witness other than the two of you and God.

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    1. Whatever we make of Paul's questions in Romans 10:14-15, they allow exceptions. Something can be generally true without being universally true. Paul knew there was a history of God working in people's lives through dreams, visions, etc., and there are reports of the same kind of thing happening in the world today (e.g., dreams about Jesus among Muslims). Sending evangelists, missionaries, and such can be the primary or intended primary means of reaching people without being the exclusive means. Paul surely wasn't ignorant that something like gospel proclamation can be accomplished by means other than what he's describing. His own conversion occurred through Divine intervention. Ananias wasn't sent to Paul by a church or some other Christian group or individual. He was sent directly by God, which departs from the structure referred to by Paul in Romans 10. Even without that sort of history to draw from, it would have been obvious to Paul, in the abstract, that God can act without using the process referred to in Romans 10. Paul can't be saying that it's somehow inconceivable that people would be converted by some other means. Rather, he's outlining what God has appointed as the usual means of accomplishing the end in question. The end can be accomplished by other means, but there would be a lot of disobedience, shame, lack of love shown to other people, etc. involved in our failing to follow the means God has given us to follow. God can supernaturally intervene to feed the family of a man who's too lazy to work a job he's capable of working to provide for his family, but that doesn't prevent us from asking, "How is your family going to eat if you don't work?". Even without supernatural intervention, the family could get food by natural means, despite the failure of the husband/father to do what he's supposed to do. Similarly, in the context Paul is addressing in Romans 10, the recipient of the gospel could desire salvation enough to seek it and come across it by some means other than what Paul describes (e.g., the comments of Theophilus of Antioch and other early Christians regarding how they were converted through reading scripture and thinking about the issues involved). Paul is addressing the primary means of reaching people appointed by God. It doesn't follow that it's inconceivable that the end in question could be accomplished in any other way, that nobody is ever justified in any other way, or anything like that.

      But there would be more urgency, and I think Paul's comments in Romans 10 and the rest of scripture would make more sense overall, if there's not any postmortem salvation. God is near to everybody (Acts 17:26-28), and I'd expect him to supernaturally intervene where needed if somebody is seeking him in a relevant way, but I'd place the timing of that intervention before death rather than after it. That seems to make more sense of what scripture says overall, such as in passages about the urgency of seeking reconciliation with God and the significance of death. We should keep in mind that we frequently don't have much evidence, if any, about what's going through people's minds in the closing moments of this life. God could intervene in many people's lives in that sort of context without our knowing it, and it could be accomplished in a small period of time. That sort of scenario seems more likely to me than something like a post-death presentation of the gospel.

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    2. Regarding how people tended to be baptized sooner in early Christianity, that does lessen baptism's violation of the immediacy theme, but a lessening isn't an elimination. Baptism doesn't have the immediacy of faith in the heart (Romans 10:8-11), in terms of immediacy of access or chronological immediacy. And since people already have justification through faith in the heart by the time they're baptized (Romans 10:10), there's no need for getting justification through baptism. Even a baptism conducted ten seconds after faith is ten seconds too late for bringing about justification.

      If what you were getting at with the marriage analogy is that there can be exceptions to a rule, including exceptions to Paul's rules in Romans 10, then I agree. However, baptismal regeneration is supposed to be the rule in the context Paul is addressing, and faith in the heart is described as the rule instead. I don't know that justification at the time of baptism even exists as an exception to the rule. If anybody has happened to be justified at the time of baptism at some point in history, it would just be a coincidence, like just happening to be justified at the time of hearing a sermon, reading a book, or taking a walk.

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