Assessing the Craig/Shapiro dialogue

Orthodox Jewish culture warrior Ben Shapiro recently interviewed William Lane Craig:

https://triablogue.blogspot.com/2019/05/shapiro-interviews-craig.html

Craig is pushing 70. Looks great for his age, and remains mentally sharp. Although the entire interview is worth viewing, I think the reason most of us tune in is to see their exchange about the messiahship of Jesus, so I'll focus on that. 

One brief point: Craig mentions the trial of Jesus before the Sanhedrin in Mk 15. He notes the reference to Dan 7. There is, however, a combined reference to Dan 7 and Ps 110. Now let's shift to the heart of the exchange: 

Shapiro: In the Gospels, Jesus's vision of himself is completely different from the prior vision of what the Jewish messiah is, and is actually outside the scope of how Jews described the messiah or really have ever described the messiah. The messiah in Judaism has always been a political figure who is destined to do certain things–restoring the kingdom of Israel, maintaining control of that kingdom, bringing more Jews back to Israel…but the idea of messiah as the embodiment of God is something foreign to Jewish religious philosophy, going all the way back to the beginning. So even the idea that the Sanhedrin would be questioning him in those terms and would get from that that what he means is "I am God"–which would a much more punishable offense, actual blasphemy–is an oddity. 

Craig: I think you're absolutely right in saying that Jesus's understanding of the messiah was radically different from the prevailing cultural understanding of the messiah among the chief priests and the common people, and he didn't meet their expectations. Indeed, that's what helped to get him crucified…Why should we believe Jesus's reinterpretation of the messiah rather than the one that the chief priests and the people held? And I think the answer to that is his resurrection from the dead. 

I don't think that's a good answer to Shapiro's challenge:

i) How do we determine "the prior vision of what the Jewish messiah is?" That can't be determined by Rabbinic Judaism inasmuch as Rabbinic Judaism isn't prior to Jesus, but developed in conscious reaction and opposition to Christianity. So the view of the messiah in Rabbic Judaism is, in some measure, reactionary and anachronistic. 

ii) In asserting that the Jewish messiah has always been a political figure, there's the danger of circular methodology. Are you beginning with the OT? Are you basing your concept of messiah on prophetic passages about a future figure who will do certain things? Or do you begin with a preconceived notion of messiahship, and use that as an a priori criterion to differentiate messianic passages from non-messianic passages? Christians/messianic Jews think the OT contains more messianic prophecies than Rabbinic Jews. Who do Rabbinic Jews think these allegedly non-messianic passages are referring to? 

iii) Did Second Temple Judaism have a monolithic conception of the messiah? Jacob Neuser talks about Judaisms (plural). 

iv) Are 1C chief priests good representatives of Jewish theology? From what I've read, the 1C chief priests, and Sadducees generally, were puppets of the Roman occupation force. They were chosen, not for their orthodoxy, but for their loyalty to their Roman overlords. So even if Jesus didn't conform to their conception of the messiah, what makes their conception the standard of comparison?  

v) And even that may be too idealistic. The trial of Jesus was just a pretext to get a public nuisance out of the way. They weren't operating from religious or theological motives. 

vi) There's a practical tension in Judaism. On the one hand, for a creature to claim to be Yahweh is the epitome of blasphemy. 

On the other hand, in OT narratives, Yahweh sometimes appears to people in a form that's phenomenologically indistinguishable from a human male. Although a theophanic angelophany is different from a divine Incarnation, my point is that in both cases, there's no empirically detectable difference between a man and God appearing in humanoid form. How could the Sandhedrin tell that Jesus isn't the Angel of the Lord? 

My point is that it's not automatically blasphemous in Judaism for someone who, to all appearances, seems to be human or merely human, to claim to be Yahweh. So that presents a certain conundrum when assessing whether the claim is true or blasphemously false. 

vii) One differential factor is whether the claimant not only says things only God is supposed to say, but also performs miracles. That at least shows a supernatural element is in play. 

viii) Craig seems unaware of the two-Yahwehs tradition in Second Temple Judaism. That's been documented by scholars like Alan Segal and Michael Heiser. 

Shapiro: One of the counterclaims is that the Gospels are written significantly after Jesus lives. The earliest Gospel is written 70 CE, somewhere 40 years after Jesus is crucified…especially when you're talking about events 2000 year ago.

i) Craig responds with his minimal facts trope.

ii) It's arguable that Mark's Gospel was written as earlier as the 40s (see John Wenham). It's arguable that Acts was written before Paul's execution. If so, then Luke's Gospel may be dated to the late 50s (give or take). Matthew's Gospel could be written in the 50s or 60s. I happen to think the epilogue to John (Jn 21) is best explained by the death of Peter. So I date John's Gospel to the 60s.

iii) But the key issue is whether the Gospels are based on living memory. 

iv) Shapiro's skepticism about the Gospels is inconsistent with his belief as an Orthodox Jew that the OT is a reliable record of events which transpired thousands of years ago. If the 2000 year gap is a problem for the Gospels, there's a much greater gap regarding OT history. 

In the same general connection, Shapiro mentions some disciples of the late Rabbi Schneerson. Although he died 20 years ago, some of them believe he's still alive. But that's a very loose comparison:

Is his tomb empty? Are there apparitions of Rabbi Schneerson? Even if there were, does he have conversations with the living? Can he be touched? Does he consume food?