Monday, January 26, 2009

The great silent majority

This Catholic commenter, over at Beggars All, corroborates a point I've often made:

john said...
I really gotta chuckle. Most Catholic Apologists are really out of touch with their own Biblical scholars, Theologians, and Historians. Haven't they read Yves Congar, Brian Tierny, Bernhard Hasler, etc. Before talking about unity they should study some more. As a Catholic most of these Catholic "Apologists" frighten me. Of course most of them will probably say that I am "not a real Catholic" or that I am a "heretic" or "Cafeteria Catholic".
7:26 AM, JANUARY 19, 2009

john said...
Matthew B. The "Church" is not the Magisterium, but the ENTIRE People of God. The other point is when someone is wrong they are wrong NO MATTER WHO THEY ARE. When the "Magisterium", a Bishop, or layperson tells me I MUST believe something that contradicts historical facts, the Scriptures, or the received Creeds of the Church then I cannot and will not. Period. The Church Fathers have stated that if ANYONE including Bishops teach anything against either then the Faithful are not obliged to believe it.
8:56 AM, JANUARY 19, 2009

john said...
MattB. Why do you bring up the Eucharist? I didn't mention it. As a matter of fact what you wrote is a non-issue for me, you are preaching to the Choir. I fully accept what the Church taught and currently teaches about it. If you want to dis me over Raymond Brown, who was on the Pontifical Biblical Commission, Yves Congar, who was made a Cardinal or a respected Catholic Biblical scholar like Joseph Fitzmyer, fine. But its those guys who are reflective of current Catholic Theology and Biblical studies, not Scott Hahn, Tim Staples, Steve Ray, Bob Sungenis, etc. I do put a wedge between them and the authentic Catholic Scholars. Most, though not all Catholics on the internet do not reflect the majority of Catholic Scholars or "real world" Catholic laity.
7:40 PM, JANUARY 19, 2009

john said...
As a regular listener to Catholic Answers Live, many questions about what a particular priest said or did come in. Often, the Catholic Answer given is that the priest is wrong, or one should go over their heads to a higher authority

James: Good point. I also listen to CA and I hear the same thing. Also do you "lurk" on the CA Forums? It would seem that there [are] a lot of "Magisterium" wannabes there also. The fact is Catholic Answers and EWTN have become a type of "Magisterium" for many conservative and "Traditionalist" Catholics. Sites like them foster an "US" (We the TRUE Catholics) against "THEM" (Protestants and even worse, those awful "Liberal" and "Cafeteria" Catholics.) At my Parish most if not all the Catholics involved in Parish work are not like the CA/EWTN Catholics. They would be called "Liberals" or "Cafeteria" Catholics by the CA/EWTN crowd. Catholics like them reflect the MAJORITY of American Catholics, not the CA/EWTN type of Catholics.

john said...
MattB. Well none of the Catholics I know at my Parish are "Pro-Choice" and several I know are involved in Pro-Life activities. But I do know that many, if not most do not believe in Papal Infallibility. Since I started going to that Parish there have been two Priests, Fr. L recently retired and Fr M replaced him, both have told me that if everyone who disagreed with one or more Church Dogmas were "not really Catholics" and were told that they weren't Catholic or Heretics and told to either leave or repent, most if not all would leave and the Church would be practically empty on Sat. and Sunday. For example the DRE (Religious Ed Director) and her assistant both say that the Church will change its mind about ordaining Women to the Priesthood. I told her no it won't, well we argued and she got mad and told "I'm the one who is charge here and the Parish authorised DRE, not you".
8:08 AM, JANUARY 20, 2009

john said...
Matt. I agree you can't simply "trash" Raymond Brown, the Pope put him on the Pontifical Biblical Commission. I am neither "liberal or "conservative" just someone who is a Catholic who tries to follow Jesus. As far as Vatican I goes many have called for a fresh look and re-assessment of Vatican I. I have read a good deal about that "council" and I simply cannot accept it as legitimate on numerous grounds. It was a rigged Council and the Fathers there were hamstrung at every point, it was not a free council with open debate and discussion like Vatican 2. The Bishops were threatened, and not free to confer with one another etc. The Historical evidence used to justify Papal Infallibility was flawed and contrary to actual reality, I could go on. When Theologians like Yves Congar say that Vatican 1 needs to be looked at again and re-assessed then you know something is wrong.

Yes it's true the type of Catholics on CA/EWTN want to beat people over the head with the Catechism and say "all or nothing" either you must believe EVERYTHING in here or else you are not a Catholic in good standing or a heretic, well that approach simply is unrealistic and out of touch of the Pastoral reality of day to day life of Catholics in the real world.
11:03 AM, JANUARY 20, 2009

john said...
I agree some of the laity are more conservative, but all of the Catholic Apologists certainly are. I mean they are still defending Trent's view on Justification and Catholic Biblical Scholars and theologians are saying "not so fast", maybe the reformers weren't that far off", also it was Official Rome which agreed to and signed the "Joint Catholic-Lutheran Statement on Justification" which is not what Trent said exactly.
12:23 PM, JANUARY 20, 2009


  1. Gosh, so much unity in the Catholic church, guess our bazillion Protestant denominations pale in comparison, and show how the Catholic Church is the true church.

  2. It's hard not to like that guy (John from the post not Sean).