The king's heart is a stream of water

steve hays November 30, 2011 at 9:24 am

Robert

“Now Hays is writing as if he is some sort of psychiatrist making his ‘diagnosis’ of some Arminians who supposedly suffer from this ‘syndrome’ which he has invented.”

Which Arminians constantly illustrate. Indeed, Robert’s response is a further confirmation.

“Besides his claim that some of us **fear** being totally controlled by God, a fear he apparently does not have being the good fatalist that he is.”

I’m not afraid of God controlling me, that’s true.

“First of all, Hays must believe that he himself is totally controlled by God or ***Holy Spirit possessed. That God completely controls him and thus everything that he does is exactly what God wants him to do. Second, note what underlies Hays’ claims here: he actually believes that God controls Him and everyone else. And that control if it is real would mean that God controls our thoughts, minds, wills, bodies, movements, every aspect of our being.”

Such as:

“The king’s heart is a stream of water in the hand of the Lord; he turns it wherever he will” (Prov 21:1).

 

“In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will” (Eph 1:11).

Back to Robert:

“Call that ‘Hays’ control principle’ for short.”

Better yet–why don’t we call that biblical predestination and providence.

“Third Hays says that I fear being controlled by God, that I fear HCP, that I hate the idea of HCP. He must be kidding! I would love to have God completely possess and control me. Why that would mean that as God controlled me in this way I would always be perfectly doing God’s will.

In fact, Robert is doing God’s bidding, just like Pharaoh.

“…but if Hays is correct not only were they controlled by God so are all of us, we just don’t all know it (if someone believes they are controlled by God and they are not we ordinarily say they are delusional, what should we say if they did not know they were controlled by God but in reality they are? ‘Unknowing puppets’? ‘Unknowing pawns’?)!”

As in:

“6Against a godless nation I send him, and against the people of my wrath I command him, to take spoil and seize plunder, and to tread them down like the mire of the streets. 7But he does not so intend, and his heart does not so think” (Isa 10:6-7).

Back to Robert:

“Why am I attacked by Him who is supposedly perfectly doing God’s will, for myself perfectly doing God’s will?”

God uses some people (e.g. Robert, Pharaoh) as a foil.

“The HCP leads to some very confusing and contradictory things.”

No, it’s just the difference between means and ends, normative characters and foil characters.

“I thought that God was frustrated with Israel in the Old Testament because they were freely choosing to sin against and rebel against Him (e.g. as it says of the time of Judges that everyone was doing what was right in their own eyes). But they were all controlled by God too. So God controlled them so that they sinned against God and then God got frustrated at their rebellion which he controlled them to do.”

Was God frustrated with Joseph’s brothers for selling him into slavery? No. That was part of God’s long-range plan. A way of fulfilling the prophetic dream he gave to Joseph.

“He is repeatedly contradicting himself by controlling people to rebel against his Word and disobey his commands.”

When people like Robert rebel against God’s word, that also serves God’s purpose. For instance, the Crucifixion was contingent on Jewish disobedience. Yet that was part of God’s plan (Acts 2:23; 4:28). So there’s no contradiction. It’s a means-ends relation.

“It is also confusing to me how HCP works when it comes to sin. God is controlling every one according to Hays, so all those inmates that I work with, their every crime is something God controlled them to do. In each case they could not help it, they had to do it, they had to do what God controlled them to do. And that includes some serious and heinous sin.”

Of course, the Arminian God empowers sinners to commit heinous sin. They couldn’t do it without divine assistance.