Excellently spoken. The man is good. Always love brother & Doctor James White. I think I needed that after all my debating about this Rob "make things up" Bell. Thanks. I shall share this on Facebook.
ps "But I guess he's biking a lot now." The man can do some biking can't he.
I've been meaning to ask you: I believe I recall that you have posted and are interested in the relation between math and theology. Is that right? I was hoping that you, Steve, or some others might comment on or even write a post regarding God's omniscience and the concept of infinity. Some, including myself, have been discussing the issue here, and while I know you guys and Sean do not exactly get along, it would be of real interest to me and perhaps some others if you could clarify how God can be meaningfully infinitely knowledgeable. I recall Steve posted a brief remark on Gordon Clark's view of this matter (he said God's knowledge can't be infinite) in which he basically said Clark failed to take into account Cantor and his theorems - as a math undergrad, I think I could follow what you guys might have to say and would appreciate it if you could expand.
Clark operates with the ancient Greek notion of the infinite as boundless, indefinite, or incomplete: a potential infinity.
However, Cantor established the notion of an actual (abstract) or definite infinity: a completed totality. So Clark’s objection doesn’t apply to the Cantorian definition of infinitude.
So if I understand you correctly, God's knowledge is or at least is analogous to a complete (bounded) infinite set? Do you have any book/article recommendations for the concept of actual infinities?
Would you all agree that God's "infinity" is qualitative rather than quantitative? If so, then does that mean that God doesn't know all possible numbers? Does God know pi? How much of pi does God know? Is there a limit to God's knowledge of pi?
Depends on what you mean. What theology speak of God's attribute of "infinity," I think that generally has reference, not to divine knowledge, but divine aseity. That God is not conditioned by time, space, or causality.
If pi is an actual infinite, then pi can be an object of knowledge (given an actual infinite mind).
This also bears on the ontology of numbers. In the divine ideas tradition, numbers are constituted by the mind of God.
Regarding pi, it also depends on how one defines what it means to "know" pi. Let me use a simpler example first.
We know that 2a = a + a. But a can be any number, so is knowing 2a = a + a the same thing as knowing an infinite number of truth propositions? For example, knowing 2a = a + a you automatically know that 2(1) = 1 + 1 and 2(2) = 2 + 2, etc.
Furthermore, what we do with arithmetic is really just pattern manipulation. We know that 1/3 = 0.3333... where the 3's continue forever. So do we know an infinite series of 0.3333... simply by expressing it as 1/3 (indeed, 1 in 3 seems to be a better way to think of what's happening than the decimal number anyway)?
Or consider that different fractions do not divide the same in different bases. For instance, 1/6 in base 10 = 0.16666.... In base 6, it's 0.1 with no repeating decimals after that.
So the question is, what does it mean to know all of pi? Does one have to calculate all the digits in a base-10 system to know it? But that's an arbitrary method of arranging numbers--one that could actually be limiting knowledge to express it that way.
But those are just my random thoughts for the moment. I haven't given this much consideration yet :-)
I must have been out of the DL loop for too long. Dr. White looks like he... lost some weight? Could hardly concentrate on the presentation :)
ReplyDeleteRyan,
ReplyDeleteI, too, have been out of the loop until just recently. But I guess he's biking a lot now.
BTW, if you haven't listened to the DL that Jason linked to earlier, you should. Good stuff there!
He kinda puts some polish on that issue! Makes it brighter and more visible!
ReplyDeleteI always get a tab bit distracted watching his presentation because of those lamps in the background! :)
Excellently spoken. The man is good. Always love brother & Doctor James White.
ReplyDeleteI think I needed that after all my debating about this Rob "make things up" Bell.
Thanks.
I shall share this on Facebook.
ps "But I guess he's biking a lot now." The man can do some biking can't he.
Wow I hardly recognised him!
ReplyDeleteHe really has lost a lot of weight!
Thanks Peter,
ReplyDeleteI've been meaning to ask you: I believe I recall that you have posted and are interested in the relation between math and theology. Is that right? I was hoping that you, Steve, or some others might comment on or even write a post regarding God's omniscience and the concept of infinity. Some, including myself, have been discussing the issue here, and while I know you guys and Sean do not exactly get along, it would be of real interest to me and perhaps some others if you could clarify how God can be meaningfully infinitely knowledgeable. I recall Steve posted a brief remark on Gordon Clark's view of this matter (he said God's knowledge can't be infinite) in which he basically said Clark failed to take into account Cantor and his theorems - as a math undergrad, I think I could follow what you guys might have to say and would appreciate it if you could expand.
Clark operates with the ancient Greek notion of the infinite as boundless, indefinite, or incomplete: a potential infinity.
ReplyDeleteHowever, Cantor established the notion of an actual (abstract) or definite infinity: a completed totality. So Clark’s objection doesn’t apply to the Cantorian definition of infinitude.
Thanks Steve.
ReplyDeleteSo if I understand you correctly, God's knowledge is or at least is analogous to a complete (bounded) infinite set? Do you have any book/article recommendations for the concept of actual infinities?
http://tinyurl.com/5ur7fae
ReplyDeleteWould you all agree that God's "infinity" is qualitative rather than quantitative? If so, then does that mean that God doesn't know all possible numbers? Does God know pi? How much of pi does God know? Is there a limit to God's knowledge of pi?
ReplyDeleteDepends on what you mean. What theology speak of God's attribute of "infinity," I think that generally has reference, not to divine knowledge, but divine aseity. That God is not conditioned by time, space, or causality.
ReplyDeleteIf pi is an actual infinite, then pi can be an object of knowledge (given an actual infinite mind).
This also bears on the ontology of numbers. In the divine ideas tradition, numbers are constituted by the mind of God.
The sum total of Bellism is crap theologically. We just lose sight of it when we focus on a publishers blitz designed to stir up the pot.
ReplyDeleteA good example is "your the good news". Really? Reality check Bell, that's a path to hell.
Regarding pi, it also depends on how one defines what it means to "know" pi. Let me use a simpler example first.
ReplyDeleteWe know that 2a = a + a. But a can be any number, so is knowing 2a = a + a the same thing as knowing an infinite number of truth propositions? For example, knowing 2a = a + a you automatically know that 2(1) = 1 + 1 and 2(2) = 2 + 2, etc.
Furthermore, what we do with arithmetic is really just pattern manipulation. We know that 1/3 = 0.3333... where the 3's continue forever. So do we know an infinite series of 0.3333... simply by expressing it as 1/3 (indeed, 1 in 3 seems to be a better way to think of what's happening than the decimal number anyway)?
Or consider that different fractions do not divide the same in different bases. For instance, 1/6 in base 10 = 0.16666.... In base 6, it's 0.1 with no repeating decimals after that.
So the question is, what does it mean to know all of pi? Does one have to calculate all the digits in a base-10 system to know it? But that's an arbitrary method of arranging numbers--one that could actually be limiting knowledge to express it that way.
But those are just my random thoughts for the moment. I haven't given this much consideration yet :-)
/pi/=1
ReplyDelete/pi/=1Father+1Son+1Holy Spirit=1God!
ReplyDelete