Traditionally, fire is the element most commonly associated with hell–especially in the popular imagination. Fire is such a memorable metaphor. But what does hellfire signify?
Universalists think it stands for purification while annihilationists think it stands for destruction. Of course, these two interpretations tend to cancel each other out.
I think it’s safe to say that traditionally, hellfire is associated with pain. Fire burns. And it’s quite possible hellfire in the Bible plays on that connotation.
However, there’s another possibility which I haven’t seen explored. Those of us who live in the Frost Belt associate fire with warmth. Nothing like curling up beside a crackling fireplace on a chilly night.
But, of course, the Bible is set in a hot, arid part of the world. A place where drought and wildfire results in famine. Hunger and thirst. Starvation and dehydration.
It’s not coincidental that figures of eschatological judgment depict God drying up rivers and streams. Especially in the Mideast, these were sources of freshwater and drinking water. Or take the famous lake of fire in Revelation. A lake is normally a freshwater body. Consider the “Sea” of Galilee, the Nile, and the Jordan River.
Fish, game, livestock, and vegetation were dependent on lakes, rivers and streams. Conversely, figures of eschatological salvation depict God turning the desert into an oasis.
The relationship between fire and water is paradoxical. We normally think of water dousing fire. But fire is a drying agent. Eschatological fire can evaporate bodies of water. Fire represents searing heat (among other things).
So it’s possible that the metaphor of fire is associated with the related metaphors of hunger and especially thirst. Unquenchable fire signifies unquenchable hunger and thirst. And these, in turn, are figures of yearning. The damned forever long for what they shall never have. Dying of thirst, but cursed with immortality.
The notion of using fire as simply a literal form of eternal punishment is abhorrent and repugnant to any thinking person.
ReplyDeleteThat being said, everything can be a matter of perspective. Have you read "River of Fire"? It does make metaphysical sense out of the notion of God being a "consuming fire".
"Paradise and hell are one and the same River of God, a loving fire which embraces and covers all with the same beneficial will, without any difference or discrimination. The same vivifying water is life eternal for the faithful and death eternal for the infidels; for the first it is their element of life, for the second it is the instrument of their eternal suffocation; paradise for the one is hell for the other. Do not consider this strange. The son who loves his father will feel happy in his father's arms, but if he does not love him, his father's loving embrace will be a torment to him. This also is why when we love the man who hates us, it is likened to pouring lighted coals and hot embers on his head."
And then there's also the rather unpopular, offensive, and plain-sense Biblical witness that hell is a literal place with literal fire where the lost are literally burned forever and ever a la Luke 16:19-31; Matt. 25:41; Rev. 14:11.
ReplyDeleteSee also:
Hell Is Necessary - Pastor Tim Conway GCC
Hell by Pastor Don Kistler
In Christ,
CD
Word Verification: lavegate
I assume that includes the "plain sense" Biblical witness to the damnation of literal sheep and literal goats (a la Mt 25:32-33).
ReplyDeleteHeaven (the heavenly barnyard) is full of literal sheep while hell is full of literal goats. (Don't know where that leaves human beings.)
I assume that also includes the "plain sense" Biblical witness to the devil as a literal dragon, bound by a literal chain, cast into a literal bottomless pit, &c.
Hellfire scared me into the loving arms of my Savior and Lord, Jesus Christ.
ReplyDeleteSteve,
ReplyDeleteDo you deny or affirm that hell is a literal place of neverending torment in flames for the devil and his angels, and all those who reject Christ?
In Him,
CD
Hell is a literal place–at least in reference to the final state (in distinction to the intermediate state of the damned). Literal flames? No.
ReplyDeletesteve said: Hell is a literal place–at least in reference to the final state (in distinction to the intermediate state of the damned). Literal flames? No.
ReplyDeleteSo you accept the infallible witness of Scripture as to the literal existence of hell, but reject that same witness as to the nature of the place.
That's an interesting hermeneutic.
Do you apply the same methodology to the eternal state of the redeemed?
In Him,
CD
Let us please understand something. The infallible witness of Scripture uses metaphors at times to describe an eternal unchanging truth.
ReplyDeleteThe eternal unchanging truth is .. hell is a place where the lost are forever aware they are separated from God.
So, to hunger and thirst after what you shall never have is indeed a torment.
So let us not appear to be questioning someone's faith because they do not accept a literal lake of fire but do accept the reality it signifies.
CORAM DEO SAID:
ReplyDelete"So you accept the infallible witness of Scripture as to the literal existence of hell, but reject that same witness as to the nature of the place."
Which begs the question of whether the Bible bears witness to literal flames. You're not going anywhere with your argument (such as it is).
BTW, do you accept the infallible witness of Scripture to literal sheep and goats–not to mention a literal dragon with a literal chain?
"That's an interesting hermeneutic."
Not at all. We also have doctrine of the general resurrection in Scripture. That's expressed in literal terms as well as figurative terms. Therefore, that implies a literal locality for the final state.
"Do you apply the same methodology to the eternal state of the redeemed?"
See above.
And what hermeneutic do you use for sheep and dragons and goats, &c.?
Funny how the bit about hell fire being repugnant and abhorrent and all that.
ReplyDeleteAs always, we like to forget that metaphors argue from the lesser to the greater, not the other way around.
So, if fire is abhorrent to you, and if hell fire is only a metaphor, well then whatever the real thing is, it must be far more abhorrent and cruel and repugnant and whatever, than any fire.
So if that's really your argument, James and others, then your issue must be with God punishing sin, not with the fire.
But CD is right. The Bible is plain. "They (speaking of people) were thrown into the lake of fire reserved for the devil and his angels."
Try this. Let's say it is real fire (of course it is...), how could it be better described than what Scripture already says?
DARYL SAID:
ReplyDeleteBut CD is right. The Bible is plain. "They (speaking of people) were thrown into the lake of fire reserved for the devil and his angels."
Try this. Let's say it is real fire (of course it is...), how could it be better described than what Scripture already says?
*****************************
But CD is right. The Bible is plain. "And he will place the sheep on his right, but the goats on the left."
Try this. Let's say these are real sheep and goats (of course they are...), how could it be better described than what Scripture already says?
But CD is right. The Bible is plain. "Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, holding in his hand the key to the bottomless pit and a great chain. And he seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years."
Try this. Let's say it's a real key to a real bottomless pit, with a real dragon bound by a real chain (of course it is...), how could it be better described than what Scripture already says?
The same place is called in Scripture both the lake of fire and outer darkness.
ReplyDelete(Matthew 8:12) But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
(Matthew 22:13) Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness; there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
(Matthew 25:30) And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
That may mean that it will be literally dark, but it would seem to be hard to reconcile that with the "lake of fire" description:
(Revelation 19:20) And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
(Revelation 20:10) And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
(Revelation 20:14) And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
(Revelation 20:15) And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
(Revelation 21:8) But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
I do think both images point to unimaginable suffering in a literal place where the damned will literally remain for eternity.
There is also the picture of the worm:
(Mark 9:44) Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
(Mark 9:46) Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
(Mark 9:48) Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
I suppose it is possible that hell will literally be a lake of invisible flames in which people are burnt by the flames while being consumed by an undying worm.
I don't find that too hard to believe, but I am not sure it's the right way to interpret it. I rarely (if ever) get dogmatic about eschatology, however.
-TurretinFan
In response to an email correspondent, I said:
ReplyDeleteEternal punishment has two phases, involving the intermediate state and final state respectively.
The intermediate state is a disembodied state. But like a nightmare, that could simulate sensory experience. And a "dreamer" (to continue the analogy) can be tormented in a nightmare.
As you know, there are inspired dreams in Scripture where God "sends" a dream. The psychological experience of the dream is not a figment of the dreamer's imagination. Rather, God is directly responsible for all of the details.
I expect that's what the intermediate state of the damned is like. That's a state of being rather than a place.
Then there's the final state, which involves the general resurrection. Since that's a reembodied state, that involves a place–as well as a state. As such, the damned could suffer in mind and body alike.
Steve, touche. I take your point.
ReplyDeleteAlthough I still believe hell to be fire.
But that's neither here nor there I suppose. My real question was the first one.
Why do those who think real hell fire to be horribly repugnant and evil of God, not consider that if fire is a metaphor, then the reality is far far worse, not better?
Beyond flames I couldn't think of a worse fate than Dom Cobb's memory/dream reconstruction in 'Inception'. In a dream state he creates a building with a set of floors all corresponding to certain memories. He moves from floor to floor, memory to memory. No matter how hard he tries reliving each memory in order to affect a different result, he cannot. It always ends in the same way. So he perpetually lives each one over and over and over again. Each reliving begins with some hope, some expectation which is then always dashed.
ReplyDeleteImagine reliving each memory of rejecting the one salvation, the only Lord and Savior over and over and over again, each time trying to affect a change but each time ending up at the same hopeless conclusion. That would be hell.
Daryl writes: "So if that's really your argument, James and others, then your issue must be with God punishing sin, not with the fire."
ReplyDeleteIt depends. If God indeed rigged the game so that He would punish people eternally for things He Himself decreed would happen and for which He provided no other alternative, then yes, that's a problem.
To provide an analogy: it would be like a father gouging out the eyes of his child and then whipping them for spilling their drinks on the floor.
Can someone do such a thing? Sure. It's not possible to really love such a being, however: you can only obey them out of fear.
That simply disregards the arguments of compatibilism, semicompatibilism, and hard determinism.
ReplyDeleteAnother Biblical way of thinking about it, looking at it like a cow looks at her new gate and wonders, "what's that?", that's if you believe cows wonder?
ReplyDeleteMat 10:24 "A disciple is not above his teacher, nor a servant above his master.
Mat 10:25 It is enough for the disciple to be like his teacher, and the servant like his master. If they have called the master of the house Beelzebul, how much more will they malign those of his household.
Mat 10:26 "So have no fear of them, for nothing is covered that will not be revealed, or hidden that will not be known.
Mat 10:27 What I tell you in the dark, say in the light, and what you hear whispered, proclaim on the housetops.
Mat 10:28 And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell.
Mat 10:29 Are not two sparrows sold for a penny? And not one of them will fall to the ground apart from your Father.
Mat 10:30 But even the hairs of your head are all numbered.
Mat 10:31 Fear not, therefore; you are of more value than many sparrows.
Mat 10:32 So everyone who acknowledges me before men, I also will acknowledge before my Father who is in heaven,
Mat 10:33 but whoever denies me before men, I also will deny before my Father who is in heaven.
Mat 10:34 "Do not think that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I have not come to bring peace, but a sword.
For me, I'm going to stick it out with Eternal Life, thank you very much; I plead His mercies everyday just like the Bible says:
Lam 3:22 The steadfast love of the LORD never ceases; his mercies never come to an end;
Lam 3:23 they are new every morning; great is your faithfulness.
Lam 3:24 "The LORD is my portion," says my soul, "therefore I will hope in him."
Lam 3:25 The LORD is good to those who wait for him, to the soul who seeks him.
Now, I don't know what all the fuss is all about seeing without God's Love no one, and I mean no one would be able to Love God with all their heart, soul, mind and strength and love their neighbor as themselves!
1Jn 4:8 Anyone who does not love does not know God, because God is love.
1Jn 4:9 In this the love of God was made manifest among us, that God sent his only Son into the world, so that we might live through him.
1Jn 4:10 In this is love, not that we have loved God but that he loved us and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins.
1Jn 4:11 Beloved, if God so loved us, we also ought to love one another.
1Jn 4:12 No one has ever seen God; if we love one another, God abides in us and his love is perfected in us.
1Jn 4:13 By this we know that we abide in him and he in us, because he has given us of his Spirit.
1Jn 4:14 And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of the world.
1Jn 4:15 Whoever confesses that Jesus is the Son of God, God abides in him, and he in God.
1Jn 4:16 So we have come to know and to believe the love that God has for us. God is love, and whoever abides in love abides in God, and God abides in him.
1Jn 4:17 By this is love perfected with us, so that we may have confidence for the day of judgment, because as he is so also are we in this world.
1Jn 4:18 There is no fear in love, but perfect love casts out fear. For fear has to do with punishment, and whoever fears has not been perfected in love.
1Jn 4:19 We love because he first loved us.
Steve,
ReplyDeleteGiven your responses would it be fair to conclude that you believe:
a) hell is a literal and eternal place of conscious torment and/or suffering and/or punishment for the devil and his angels and all those who reject Christ [i.e. the "damned"];
and
b) that we can't draw any true sound conclusions from Scripture about the actual nature of hell [other than it's a really bad place to spend eternity] because all the references therein are metaphors which signify incomprehensible spiritual truths;
yet
c) we can conclude with confidence that it is not an actual place of burning in flames, of darkness, and of worms that don't die;
because
d) the Bible uses sheep, goats, dragons, and angels with chains as metaphors which necessitates that Scriptural descriptions of hell must also be taken metaphorically.
Is this a fairly accurate [albeit overly simplistic] summary of your position?
In Christ,
CD
CD,
ReplyDeleteIt seems that c) should be better worded thus:
"we can conclude with confidence that it is an actual place but may not contain burning flames, darkness, and worms that don't die."
I don't hear Steve saying it definitively does not contain these things, just that it may not be these actual items as we know them, but the descriptions given so we can understand what is there.
Congratulations, Hays, for arriving at the same conclusions as the Orthodox! :-)
ReplyDeleteCD:
ReplyDeletea) Correct
b) Incorrect
i) You tried to prooftext your belief in literal hellfire by citing passages from Matthew and Revelation. I pointed out that similar passages in Matthew and Revelation contain indubitable metaphors.
Hence, you shoulder the burden of showing that while the sheep, goats, keys, chain, dragon, &c., are figurative, the flames are literal.
ii) I already indicated one way in which we can distinguish the two. While some Biblical statements concerning the afterlife use picture language, the Biblical revealtion of the afterlife isn’t limited to picture language. For instance, not all of the terminology that Paul uses in 1 Cor 15 is picture language. Therefore, we begin with literal statements, which in some measure supply a frame of reference for decrypting the figurative statements.
iii) I don’t think there’s anything inherently incomprehensible about the nature of the afterlife, although God has left much undisclosed.
c) You’ve bundled several questions into one:
i) I don’t think hell literally contains immortal, fireproof maggots.
ii) For all I know, hell may have a varied landscape.
d) *Metaphorical* descriptions of hell must be taken metaphorically, which doesn’t mean that all Scriptural statements about hell (or the damned) are metaphorical.
Thanks for the instruction, Steve.
ReplyDeleteWith your well defined position in mind may I ask what you meant in this comment over at TF's place?
Were you speaking metaphorically of the atheist being burned by the God of the Word in the next life for literally smoking [burning] the Word of God in this life?
In Christ,
CD
That was a figurative pun.
ReplyDeleteFascinating discussion guys!
ReplyDeleteI liked the variety of opinions.
Though you left out the opinion found in some ancient Hebrew Scriptures (whose authors certainly appeared to agree) that when you're dead you're dead--a position held by some Jews even right up till Jesus' day.
You also didn't discuss the opinion that many Christians held for centuries (including some early Church Fathers and, over a thousand years later, Jonathan Edwards) that the saints in heaven will rejoice at seeing those in hell suffer forever.
And of course sadly, the Bible doesn't say whether or young children are capable of damnation. Lacking such information has stressed out some Christian mothers (including some Christian women who have had miscarriages) because they firmly believe in eternal punishment yet are left not knowing whether their child is in heaven or hell.
Some Reformed theological defenders of eternal damnation might enjoy bits of my response to Christian philosopher Victor Reppert below, in which I discuss God and hell:
ReplyDeleteVR: According to Christianity, this earth and everything in it, including all the human suffering we find there, lasts only a finite length of time, while human character lasts forever. Something that alleviates our suffering at the cost of harming our character is not a bargain if Christians are right.
ED: “Forever” is a long time during which free-willed beings might experience a change in character, if that is what you propose God’s main concern is. But based on various Bible passages it seems to me like God’s main concern is not “character development” so much as retribution, wrath, holy jealousy, casting people into lakes of fire, locking people out of wedding parties who arrive late, warning people about the God who can cast both body and soul into hell.
Some Christians, C. S. Lewis included, argue that hell is a “loving provision,” a place where non-Christian souls are safe from the pain they would feel if they were exposed to God’s presence. Such an argument fails to convince because Christianity teaches Jesus was God, yet Jesus mingled with “sinners and wine-bibbers” without any mention of his presence causing them pain. Jesus also allegedly preached to “souls in hell,” so I guess God can tone down his “presence” enough to avoid causing sinners pain. God can even put His “presence” in communion wafers (if Catholics and Lutherans are right) without it burning the tongues of sinners (unless the person happens to have a strong allergic reaction to wheat).
Those Christians willing to question the notion of a firey retributive hell lit by God’s jealousy and anger, and who favor instead a “lighter” less “tortuous” version of “eternal punishment” (perhaps being cast into a lake of sour jello instead of a lake of fire), should take their questioning to the NEXT level and ask why “hell” needs to be any worse than this world? We have pain and sickness here, we suffer here, but there is also room for healing, growth and education. (Indeed, what better teachers could there be than God and time, especially if God is most concerned about the development of one’s character thoughout eternity rather than being concerned about vengeance, wrath and retribution?)
As for those who argue that eternal hell should be viewed as “God’s great compliment,” I say, if hell is such a great “compliment,” what does God do when he wants to “insult” someone? (Maybe I should simply respond, “Then please take your gleefully and playfully worded defense of hell with you to hell? There, have I complimented you enough?”)
CONTINUED FROM ABOVE
ReplyDeleteLastly, why do you assume that this world is the best place in which to develop character? We start out ignorant babes, picking up the ignorance and prejudices of those who raise us. Then once our hormones kick in during adolescence we’re tossed on a sea of emotions. And “communication” itself is a difficult art that can cause confusion, pain and suffering, or lead to it. While simple stupidity cripples some people, cities, nations, etc. Throughout life we also have to concentrate on basic needs first and foremost, from food and clothing and shelter to basic education to hopefully advanced education (which much of the world lacks), and even then there’s little time left for most people on earth to compare and contrast religions, philosophies, wise teachers and sayings, or even to self-examine themselves and what they truly do believe, or to retrace and study the courses of their own inner journeys--that often leads to new insights and beliefs. Some people also suffer so much in life either psychologically or physically that it doesn’t build character but dismantles it, and/or scrambles a person’s brain/mind. Even a mere deficiency in a vitamin or mineral can scramble a person’s brain/mind, and/or hinder their ability to think clearly. A tiny microscopic tear in brain tissue or pressure from a benign tumor can also change a person’s behavior. It turned one happily married man into a porn addict and molester of his own daughter, and then once the tumor was removed, he was fine.
All I have to say is this...
Given headaches, backaches, toothaches, strains, scrapes, breaks, cuts, rashes, burns, bruises, PMS, fatigue, hunger, odors, molds, colds, yeast, parasites, viruses, cancers, genetic defects, blindness, deafness, paralysis, mental illness, ugliness, ignorance, miscommunications, embarrassments, unrequited love, dashed hopes, boredom, hard labor, repetitious labor, accidents, old age, senility, fires, floods, earthquakes, typhoons, tornadoes, hurricanes and volcanoes, I can not see how anyone, after they are dead, deserves “eternal punishment” as well.
EDWARD T. BABINSKI SAID:
ReplyDelete"Though you left out the opinion found in some ancient Hebrew Scriptures (whose authors certainly appeared to agree) that when you're dead you're dead--a position held by some Jews even right up till Jesus' day."
I've already discussed that. Try again.
"You also didn't discuss the opinion that many Christians held for centuries (including some early Church Fathers and, over a thousand years later, Jonathan Edwards) that the saints in heaven will rejoice at seeing those in hell suffer forever."
I've already discussed that. Try again.
"And of course sadly, the Bible doesn't say whether or young children are capable of damnation. Lacking such information has stressed out some Christian mothers (including some Christian women who have had miscarriages) because they firmly believe in eternal punishment yet are left not knowing whether their child is in heaven or hell."
I've already discussed that. Try again.