Rhology
I don't see it that way.Rather, you live as if the Word of God is sufficient to tell you how to have eternal life and tell you how to live, and you can be open to God being unpredictable, but you don't think that God gives out those gifts anymore such that people could routinely perform them.One could do a heckuvalot worse than thinking the Word of God is sufficient, and that is the farthest thing from being an atheist.
I respect that position, and
I think there’s a lot of truth to it. (Keep in mind that I think the position
of semicessationists like Poythress and even full-blown continuationists like
Sam Storms and Wayne Grudem is consistent with the sufficiency of Scripture.)
I think Christians should be
prepared to lead utterly uneventful, unremarkable lives. Lives in which nothing
out of the ordinary ever happens to them. No miracles. No premonitions.
I think every Christian
should be content to live like that. Be resigned to a cessationist experience
(if you will). That’s a trusting, godly attitude. That's the life God has called many Christians to.
I interpret Joel’s prophecy
has having reference, not to all Christians, but all classes of Christians.
In addition, one of the
dangers of Pentecostalism is to miss the mediated presence of God in providence
and Scripture by seeking God’s presence in special or spectacular
manifestations. That neglects how much we can and do experience God in the
mundanities of daily life.
That said, it concerns me
that hardline cessationists, in their reactionary zeal, become the mirror image
of James Randi, Susan Blackmore, Martin Gardner, Bill Nye, Paul Kurtz, Paul
Edwards, Michael Shermer, et al.
The general outlook is
alarmingly similar. A hostile, knee-jerk scepticism to modern supernatural
reports. That’s not an attitude which Christians should cultivate. And I think
it can be spiritually harmful. Doctrinaire doubt is corrosive to Christian faith
and piety.
I think Christians should be prepared to lead utterly uneventful, unremarkable lives. Lives in which nothing out of the ordinary ever happens to them. No miracles. No premonitions.
ReplyDeleteI think every Christian should be content to live like that. Be resigned to a cessationist experience (if you will). That’s a trusting, godly attitude. That's the life God has called many Christians to.
AMEN!!!
I also think that that godly attitude is not inconsistent with what charismatics believe to be a binding Scriptural command:
Pursue love, and earnestly desire the spiritual gifts, especially that you may prophesy. (1 Cor. 14:1)
I agree with the following sentiments of William Law:
If, therefore, you live in murmurings and complaints, accusing all the accidents of life, it is not because you are a weak, infirm creature, but it is because you want [i.e. lack] the first principle of religion, -- a right belief in God. For as thankfulness is an express acknowledgment of the goodness of God towards you, so repinings and complaints are as plain accusations of God's want of goodness towards you.
On the other hand, would you know who is the greatest saint in the world? It is not he who prays most or fasts most; it is not he who gives most alms, or is most eminent for temperance, chastity, or justice; but it is he who is always thankful to God, who wills everything that God willeth, who receives everything as an instance of God's goodness, and has a heart always ready to praise God for it.
All prayer and devotion, fastings and repentance, meditation and retirement, all Sacraments and ordinances, are but so many means to render the soul thus Divine, and conformable to the will of God, and to fill it with thankfulness and praise for everything that comes from God. This is the perfection of all virtues; and all virtues that do not tend to it, or proceed from it, are but so many false ornaments of a soul not converted unto God.
Steve, have you ever experienced the gift of prophecy?
ReplyDeleteI've had one or two dreams that seem to be paranormal.
DeleteThanks for the reply. Was it clear to you what the dreams meant? Have you ever experienced the gift of tongues?
ReplyDeleteThe two dreams were intriguing rather than informative. And, no, I've never spoken in tongues. I'm not a Pentecostal Christian.
DeleteI used to "pray" in "tongues". Been "slain in the Spirit" and "holy laughter" in the past as well.
ReplyDeleteSounds like Pentecostalism inoculated you against...Pentecostalism!
DeletePray in tongues. You mean, like French?
DeleteNo, he means like a so-called "heavenly language." Gibberish, basically.
DeleteWell yes, I have prayed many times in French too. :-) It was actually quite helpful in improving my facility with the language.
DeleteI remember one time I went to a church that is still going strong in the London area; the pastor guy got up right at the tail end of the praise and worship time and said "I want everyone in here to pray in tongues. Just pray in your prayer language right now. Come on, everyone."
I, newly de-charismaticised, and my Swiss-German friend exchanged a glance and began praying in French.
Another time I was praying with a pastor at the campus ministry where I was involved. It was Pentecostal; I just wasn't making a big deal out of the fact I wasn't charismatic anymore. I started praying in French b/c I felt like it.
After that time, we were talking and he asked me if I was "Spirit-filled", to which I was of course going to answer "yes" even though my meaning wasn't the same as his, but before I could say anything he stopped himself and said "Oh yeah, never mind, I heard you praying in tongues."
I'd been praying in French. Heh.
Rhology, In hindsight, how do account for your experience of praying in tongues, being "slain in the Spirit," and "holy laughter"?
ReplyDeleteIt's a bit mysterious, really, but given the ease with which a cynical person like myself was induced to follow the crowd in doing stuff like that, I believe probably most people are subject to that sort of influence and suggestion. If you're open to it and really think it could be legit, then you sort of think why not? and then as your friends encourage you and model the behavior, eventually you only partly intentionally join in.
DeleteThe first time I "prayed in tongues" was the 2nd of many prayer meetings where I'd get together with some friends in a dorm room (at ORU no less, LOL) and we'd spend hours singing, praising God, praying (often in tongues) and "letting the Spirit move". It was unorganised, sometimes chaotic (though not violent or anything), and a great environment for that sort of suggestivity to take hold.
Being slain in the Spirit is 100% a result of watching others do it, and then you know, you're in the middle of reverently worshiping God and a guy comes over to pray for you, then eases you back and there's someone there to catch you. I'd obviously never do that again, but my intentions were to worship God. I can't deny that I did worship the Lord intensely while doing it. (But of course I can worship and have worshiped intensely without such.)
The holy laughter, I've experienced twice. First time it was after my friends started laughing hysterically, and for a long time. The 2nd time was some months later at least and I was always looking out for the onset of some mystical experience, so in both of those cases it was the power of suggestion. And the 2nd time, I'd started laughing as a pastor was speaking to the gathering and he looked at me and said "Keep laughing". That was at the sort of famous GUTS church in Tulsa.
Rhology, Thanks for the reply. If you don't mind my asking, to what extent are you now a cessationist, i.e. what spiritual gifts do you believe ceased with the death of the last apostle?
DeleteI call myself a soft cessationist.
DeleteThe spectacular sign gifts - I see no evidence they are being exercised biblically these days. Prophecy of the future, tongues, miracles, healings.
God still does them, but doesn't give the spiritual gifts thereof.