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Tuesday, July 19, 2011

Predator


Let’s deal first with the simple question. “If Christianity were proven false, and Islam true, would you simply drop your current moral convictions and adopt those of Islam because you found you ‘had the wrong God’?” This question is, I think, misphrased. The important question is not what I would do under the envisioned circumstances, but what I should do. What I would do is an autobiographical fact about my personal psychology, which is of little philosophical interest. Moreover, it would be presumptuous for me to make predictions about what I would do under different circumstances (remember the apostle Peter on the night of Jesus’ betrayal?). What is of interest rather is what I should do under the envisioned circumstances. So stated, the question’s answer is clear: if Islam were proven true and Christianity false, then Islam would be true, and so of course I should believe in it. The same answer would present itself to the atheist: if atheism were proven false and Islam true, then should you obey the commands of Allah? Of course, for then Islam is the truth, and you really do have those moral obligations, however difficult it might be for you to stomach them.


i) Craig is half-right. If Christianity were false, that should make a difference in how we view Christianity. It’s not like Don Cupitt, DZ Phillips, and John Spong–who continue to practice a Christian creed they no longer believe.

ii) However, Craig takes too much for granted. He seems to view epistemic duties as worldview-invariant. That we have a moral obligation to believe the truth and abide by the truth in whatever possible world we find ourselves. But that doesn’t make much sense.

Does every possible world have objective moral norms? Aren’t some possible worlds amoral?

iii) Take another example: suppose human beings were created by a race of evil aliens. The evil aliens created us to be prey in a game where we are hunted down by hunters whom the evil aliens also created for that purpose. The aliens enjoy the vicarious spectacle of watching the game play out.

The aliens really exist. This is a true state of affairs. But does that mean the aliens are in a position to obligate us to do their bidding? I don’t see how.

The aliens are unworthy of our allegiance. How can immoral beings impose moral obligations on other beings? They don’t deserve our obedience.

iv) Rather, compliance would be a pragmatic consideration. If Allah were the true God, then it would be foolhardy to defy Allah. You’d lose. You’d suffer. So you go along to get along.

It’s like citizens who live under oppressive, despotic regimes. They don’t believe in the regime. They hate the regime. But they keep their true feelings to themselves. They make expedient moral compromises just to survive. 

12 comments:

  1. But does that [they being our creators] mean the aliens are in a position to obligate us to do their bidding? I don’t see how.

    and...

    The aliens are unworthy of our allegiance.

    These are questions I've often been asked by atheists about God in light of my Calvinistic and supralapsarian theology. Steve how would you answer these same questions with respect to God other than to say that we are indebted to God for our "being and well-being"? In your hypothetical, humans would also be indebted to the aliens who both created them and provide for them (at least enough provision that they can attempt to escape or withstand the hunters).

    How is the Christian God [specifically supralapsarianly Calvinistic conception] "worthy of our allegiance."?

    How can immoral beings impose moral obligations on other beings? They don’t deserve our obedience.

    Earlier you called them "evil aliens" and here "immoral beings". Given the hypothetical, if human beings were created by these aliens, then Christianity would be false. In which case, on what basis could they be called "evil" since in the hypothetical there's no stated moral standard (theistic or non-theistic)?

    I suppose you could tweak the hypothetical so that the Christian God does exist, but change the "humans" to some other sentient species on another planet or universe.


    Rather, compliance would be a pragmatic consideration. If Allah were the true God, then it would be foolhardy to defy Allah. You’d lose. You’d suffer. So you go along to get along.

    Here is how some atheists have posed the question to me:

    How can the Calvinistic supralapsarian God be worthy of and deserve our obedience and compliance? I've often been accused of worshipping God for prudential and pragmatic reasons (because I happen to believe in this God's existence), rather than for his actual worth. They ask for rational reasons why we should obey Him. Steve, What would you say? I confess this is a harder question to answer now than when I was a new Christian over 20 years ago when I feed my mind and soul on books like A.W. Tozer's "The Knowledge of the Holy" et al.



    ********

    BTW, if anyone is interested, here are links to logs of IRC chats I've had with an atheist that I've been dialoguing with for years. My usual nick is "Be`Strong" or "BibleLosophR" and my interlocutor's nick is "Ozymandias" ( or sometimes "QED")

    For the sake of the argument I took the voluntaristic "Divine Command Theory" position instead of my current view of "Divine Command Essentialism"

    part 1
    http://n.1asphost.com/bestrong/God%20and%20Ultimate%20Moral%20Authority.html

    part 2
    http://n.1asphost.com/bestrong/God%20and%20Ultimate%20Moral%20Authority%20part%202.html

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  2. "...when I was a new Christian over 20 years ago when I feed my mind and soul on books like A.W. Tozer's "The Knowledge of the Holy" et al.

    My point being that back then I read non-Calvinistic books and had more Arminian-like views.

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  3. ANNOYED PINOY SAID:

    These are questions I've often been asked by atheists about God in light of my Calvinistic and supralapsarian theology. Steve how would you answer these same questions with respect to God other than to say that we are indebted to God for our ‘being and well-being’? In your hypothetical, humans would also be indebted to the aliens who both created them and provide for them (at least enough provision that they can attempt to escape or withstand the hunters).

    In my hypothetical, they cannot escape or withstand the hunters. They exist purely to be hunted down and killed, in various ways, for the voyeuristic recreation of the aliens who made them for vicarious entertainment.

    “Earlier you called them ‘evil aliens’ and here ‘immoral beings’. Given the hypothetical, if human beings were created by these aliens, then Christianity would be false. In which case, on what basis could they be called ‘evil’ since in the hypothetical there's no stated moral standard (theistic or non-theistic)?”

    If you want to take it that far, sure. Remember that I’m bouncing off of Craig’s answer to the questioners. I’m considering the issue from one aspect, not every aspect.

    “How can the Calvinistic supralapsarian God be worthy of and deserve our obedience and compliance? I've often been accused of worshipping God for prudential and pragmatic reasons (because I happen to believe in this God's existence), rather than for his actual worth.”

    There’s a difference between serving someone hateful because you fear him, and serving someone admirable–even if your service has an element of self-interest.

    There’s nothing wrong with a degree of self-interested motivation. We’re needy, dependent creatures.

    It’s like asking–do I love my wife for herself, or do I love my wife because I love to be around her? It’s an artificial dichotomy.

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  4. They exist purely to be hunted down and killed, in various ways, for the voyeuristic recreation of the aliens who made them for vicarious entertainment.

    And atheists would say the same thing about the Calvinistic God. Moreover, if the Christian God didn't exist in that hypothetical, then on what basis can they complain? Shouldn't they be grateful to their makers since they did create them? They wouldn't have existed otherwise. If I recall, you've made similar statements in the past defending God when people (atheists or non-Calvinistic Christians) complain about Calvinism's doctrine of reprobation.

    Wouldn't you agree that the reprobate should be thankful to God for their creation and momentary enjoyment of this current world even if one of the reasons He creates them is to fulfill His decree to damn them?

    Of course, another reason for creating them is in order to directly/indirectly benefit the elect because they are a necessary component (both collectively and individually) in the causal nexus of God's providence. Along with bringing God glory by manifesting God's justice and highlighting God's mercy by contrast.

    There’s a difference between serving someone hateful because you fear him, and serving someone admirable–even if your service has an element of self-interest.

    I agree. Erasmus asked Luther, "How can anyone bring themselves to love such a God [who elects and reprobates like you, Luther believe] (paraphrase)?"

    Luther misquoted Erasmus' question and said, "You [Erasmus] ask, 'Who could believe that God loves him?' Nobody, nobody can. But the elect shall believe it. The rest will perish not believing it, raging and blaspheming. (paraphrase)".

    How would you answer Erasmus' original question? I'm sure my answer would be similar to yours, but not as full-orbed as you could express it. I guess what I'm asking is how would you go about trying to convince non-Calvinists (eg. atheists, Arminians et al.) of God's deservedness and worthiness of worship. I've been told that "worship" means "WORTH-ship".

    There’s nothing wrong with a degree of self-interested motivation. We’re needy, dependent creatures.

    I agree. That's why I hold to "Christian Hedonism" as outlined by John Piper in his book "Desiring God: Meditations of a Christian Hedonist"
    Which is freely downloadable here:

    http://www.desiringgod.org/resource-library/online-books/desiring-god

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  5. I won't be able to respond again till tomorrow morning. :)

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  6. I guess there are two issues:

    1. How would you defend God's worthiness

    2. How can God obligate us? Or, what rational reasons are there to acknowledge and submit to God's moral rule over us that does not appeal to prudential/mercenary reasons?

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  7. I said...

    Wouldn't you agree that the reprobate should be thankful to God for their creation and momentary enjoyment of this current world even if one of the reasons He creates them is to fulfill His decree to damn them?

    Of course no one living on earth can know with absolute apodictic certainty that he/she is non-elect. Nor should anyone asssume he is non-elect. Rather, he should seek and strive to be reconciled to God by believing in the Gospel and trusting in Christ. So, So, I guess the analogy I used doesn't work since on your hypothetical the sentient species (presumably) know they were created by the aliens for the sole purpose of being hunted for entertainment's sake.

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  8. On the lighter side...

    How the movie "Predator" Should Have Ended:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fp9DHzgr758


    To Serve Man:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NIufLRpJYnI

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  9. ANNOYED PINOY SAID:

    “And atheists would say the same thing about the Calvinistic God.”

    That’s an argument from analogy minus the argument. You need to spell out the alleged point-by-point correspondence.

    For instance, the Calvinist God isn’t doing this for recreation. He has need of nothing. This isn’t for his own entertainment or sadistic pleasure.

    You also need to explain what you think is analogous to being hunted down for sport.

    “Shouldn't they be grateful to their makers since they did create them? They wouldn't have existed otherwise.”

    To be created for no other purpose than to be the prey in a bloodsport to alleviate the boredom of hitech aliens is not something that commends the gratitude of the hapless prey.

    “If I recall, you've made similar statements in the past defending God when people (atheists or non-Calvinistic Christians) complain about Calvinism's doctrine of reprobation.”

    You alleged a similarity, yet you failed to specify the similarity.

    “Wouldn't you agree that the reprobate should be thankful to God for their creation and momentary enjoyment of this current world even if one of the reasons He creates them is to fulfill His decree to damn them?”

    Once again, how is that analogous to my illustration?

    “How would you answer Erasmus' original question?”

    The elect have every reason to love a God who loves the elect. A God who loves them when they were his sworn enemies.

    As for the reprobate–they hate God, not because God is evil, but because God is good and they are evil. They hate God’s virtues. They hate God’s holiness, righteousness, justice, and truthfulness. Most of all, they hate God because he is God and they are not.

    They resent and envy the good fortune of others.

    “How can God obligate us?”

    Because he is better than us. Because he made us for a good reason.

    “Or, what rational reasons are there to acknowledge and submit to God's moral rule over us that does not appeal to prudential/mercenary reasons?”

    I already answered that question in a previous comment.

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  10. I'm not sure how this demonstrates your objection to Craig. 'Evil aliens' presupposes an objective moral order. Why wouldn't this order also apply to your alien-created humanity? What is it about their being created by evil-aliens that removes their responsibility to act in a morally responsible manner (e.g. truth seeking)?

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  11. Do they have a moral obligation to obey the aliens?

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  12. "Do they have a moral obligation to obey the aliens?"

    I don't see how, these particular aliens are evil (I take 'evil' be understand along Judeo-Christian lines, which presents something of a problem for the question...). But what I don't understand is how this 'fact' demonstrates an amoral 'possible world,' or relieves this particular version of humanity from their duty to act morally (here I am presupposing that you haven't actually posited an amoral world).

    For instance, if your hypothetical humanity were to oppose their evil creators, would they not be according morally, in accordance with the good?

    I suppose I am also assuming that your evil aliens are not deity, and therefore not 'determiners' of morality...

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