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Sunday, April 25, 2010

Disturbing possible side-effects of conditional security

Posted on April 6, 2010 by kangaroodort

This article by Jeff Patton is truly disturbing. It reminds me of a tape I listened to once of a young woman who called the Bible Answer Man show and said she was contemplating suicide. She had concerns about Scriptures like Hebrews 6 and 10. It seemed that those passages were the only things keeping her from following through with her plan to kill herself. She wanted to get thoughts on those passages stating plainly that if she knew she would go to heaven, she would commit suicide. To their credit, the radio hosts counseled her not to go through with it. However, when pressed, they admitted that they firmly believed that if she ever trusted Christ as Savior she would go straight to heaven after committing suicide. Who knows if that girl was talked out of her decision to commit suicide, and who knows how many others who were suicidal may have taken their lives after listening to that program.

http://arminianperspectives.wordpress.com/2010/04/06/a-disturbing-article-on-the-possible-effects-of-some-versions-of-eternal-security-doctrine/


kangaroodort, on April 9, 2010 at 2:36 pm Said:

...it is still accurate to say we can lose our salvation. It simply reflects the truth that we had something previously that we no longer have. Just as you mentioned “losing” faith. It expresses the same thing. You no longer have something you previously had.

I actually prefer to speak of forfeiting salvation or abandoning faith. But I don’t have a problem with the language of losing salvation either...“As long as one has Christ (through faith), that one will also have salvation.”


http://arminianperspectives.wordpress.com/2010/04/06/a-disturbing-article-on-the-possible-effects-of-some-versions-of-eternal-security-doctrine/#comment-4282

It's true that the antinomian version of eternal security is dangerous. However, the Arminian version of conditional security could be equally dangerous.

After all, an Arminian could say to himself, I know today that I'm saved today, but I don't know that I will still be saved tomorrow. And if I lose my salvation tomorrow, then I'm damned for sure, since apostasy is irrevocable (Heb 6:4-6).

So isn't it prudent for me to quit while I'm ahead? Why not kill myself while I know I'm saved? On a cost/benefit analysis, isn't it riskier to stay alive, day after day and week after week when I could forfeit my salvation at any time? The fact that I'm saved today creates no presumption that I will still be saved tomorrow.

Even if suicide is a sin, it is not as bad as apostasy. It is not an unforgivable sin, is it? All apostates go to hell. Do all suicides go to hell?

After all, I'm taking my life to ensure my fidelity to God–not abandon the faith.

11 comments:

  1. Interesting post. Killing oneself to the Catholics is an unforgivable sin, I think. So they discourage suicides that way. Yet, in the liberal Catholic Church everybody goes to heaven, really.

    I would think suicide comes from some deep deep trauma in a person's life and heart. And whether they are Reformed, or not reformed it wouldn't matter. Theology is out the window at this point.

    And I always think of those Jews who killed themselves on Masada, so the Romans wouldn't take them. There we have a tragic reluctant suicide, but an almost righteous one.

    And I also think of the Jonestown mass suicide, and how we humans can be so incredibly naive. I know I have been, and have to saty close to the Word, and the Cross, so I'm grounded spiritually. And nothing can take me out of my Savior's hand, and nothing can ever , whatsoever pull me from my Father's hand, and His arm that is bared to the universe.

    "The Lord has bared his holy arm
    before the eyes of all the nations,
    and all the ends of the earth shall see
    the salvation of our God." Isaiah 52:10

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  2. Do self murderers inherit the kingdom based on Revelation 21:8? Just wondering.

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  3. The Seeking Disciple said...

    "Do self murderers inherit the kingdom based on Revelation 21:8? Just wondering."

    Which assumes that Revelation defines suicide as self-murder.

    And keep in mind that even murder isn't an unforgivable sin, viz. King David.

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  4. I will put forth a "Biblical" Suicide where the one committing it goes to Heaven.

    1Sa 28:10 But Saul swore to her by the LORD, "As the LORD lives, no punishment shall come upon you for this thing."
    1Sa 28:11 Then the woman said, "Whom shall I bring up for you?" He said, "Bring up Samuel for me."
    1Sa 28:12 When the woman saw Samuel, she cried out with a loud voice. And the woman said to Saul, "Why have you deceived me? You are Saul."
    1Sa 28:13 The king said to her, "Do not be afraid. What do you see?" And the woman said to Saul, "I see a god coming up out of the earth."
    1Sa 28:14 He said to her, "What is his appearance?" And she said, "An old man is coming up, and he is wrapped in a robe." And Saul knew that it was Samuel, and he bowed with his face to the ground and paid homage.
    1Sa 28:15 Then Samuel said to Saul, "Why have you disturbed me by bringing me up?" Saul answered, "I am in great distress, for the Philistines are warring against me, and God has turned away from me and answers me no more, either by prophets or by dreams. Therefore I have summoned you to tell me what I shall do."
    1Sa 28:16 And Samuel said, "Why then do you ask me, since the LORD has turned from you and become your enemy?
    1Sa 28:17 The LORD has done to you as he spoke by me, for the LORD has torn the kingdom out of your hand and given it to your neighbor, David.
    1Sa 28:18 Because you did not obey the voice of the LORD and did not carry out his fierce wrath against Amalek, therefore the LORD has done this thing to you this day.
    1Sa 28:19 Moreover, the LORD will give Israel also with you into the hand of the Philistines, and tomorrow you and your sons shall be with me. The LORD will give the army of Israel also into the hand of the Philistines."
    1Sa 28:20 Then Saul fell at once full length on the ground, filled with fear because of the words of Samuel. And there was no strength in him, for he had eaten nothing all day and all night.

    concluding with:::>

    1Sa 31:1 Now the Philistines fought against Israel, and the men of Israel fled before the Philistines and fell slain on Mount Gilboa.
    1Sa 31:2 And the Philistines overtook Saul and his sons, and the Philistines struck down Jonathan and Abinadab and Malchi-shua, the sons of Saul.
    1Sa 31:3 The battle pressed hard against Saul, and the archers found him, and he was badly wounded by the archers.
    1Sa 31:4 Then Saul said to his armor-bearer, "Draw your sword, and thrust me through with it, lest these uncircumcised come and thrust me through, and mistreat me." But his armor-bearer would not, for he feared greatly. Therefore Saul took his own sword and fell upon it.
    1Sa 31:5 And when his armor-bearer saw that Saul was dead, he also fell upon his sword and died with him.
    1Sa 31:6 Thus Saul died, and his three sons, and his armor-bearer, and all his men, on the same day together.

    Just to highlight two verses from those above:

    1Sa 28:19 Moreover, the LORD will give Israel also with you into the hand of the Philistines, and tomorrow you and your sons shall be with me. The LORD will give the army of Israel also into the hand of the Philistines."

    and

    1Sa 31:4 Then Saul said to his armor-bearer, "Draw your sword, and thrust me through with it, lest these uncircumcised come and thrust me through, and mistreat me." But his armor-bearer would not, for he feared greatly. Therefore Saul took his own sword and fell upon it.

    Let me be clear. I am not promoting suicide!

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  5. natamllc,

    While I personally suspect that the apparition was really Samuel (with some commentaries agreeing), some commentaries think that it wasn't really Samuel but an evil spirit.

    If it was a demon, then we can't trust any inference we can make from the partially true statements.

    If it really was Samuel, then just because he says that Saul would be with him tomorrow doesn't necessarily mean that Saul died in a state of salvation. Yes, it does say that (the apparently godly) Jonathan would be included. But the nature of the intermediate state before the time of Cross isn't clear. Some theologians believe that prior to the Cross all the dead consciously "reside" in Sheol where there might be two compartments for 1. the righteous and 2. the unrighteous.

    Samuel could merely be saying that Saul and his sons will be with him in sheol (the abode of the dead) without being specific about which compartment of the dead each will individually go to. It's possible that Saul and some of his other sons could go to the compartment for the ungodly, while Jonathan (and if there were any, godly brothers) to the compartment for the godly with Samuel. Yet, all of them be "with" Samuel in sheol.

    For the other people who commented, we must also remember that commiting suicide doesn't always happen quickly. One can commit suicide by blowing himself up (without time for repentance), or one can (e.g.) slash his wrists and so slowly bleed to death in (guessing) 40 minutes. Yet, in the last 10 minutes realise the great evil in his action and then truly repent before he dies.

    Do I believe that a person can commit suicide and still have been saved (or get saved)? Yes, since demonic deception, oppression or confusion can possibly lead a Christian to commmit such a foolish and sinful act. It is likely or common? No, since murder is such a serious sin and despite the reality of demonically inspired despair, a Christian will knows how serious a sin it is to commit and so will tend not to commit it if tempted to do so.

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  6. I agree with the argument in this post, but is apostasy really unforgivable? I know apostates who now seek God again.

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  7. In Reformed theology, there's a distinction between apostates and backsliders.

    The notion that apostasy is unforgivable (because it is irreversible) comes from a traditional interpretation of Heb 6:4-6. Whether that's a correct interpretation is subject to debate, but many Arminians agree.

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  8. how are we to understand heb 6:4 and heb 10:26 in light of 1 john 1:9? if an apostate confesses his sin, will the lord take him back?

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  9. A backslider can undergo spiritual restoration. David, Peter, and Manasseh are paradigm-cases.

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  10. ah, i see. if a person actually denied the lord and told god he intends to stop being christian, is that an apostate or backslider?

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  11. Only time will tell. By definition, one returns to the faith, and the other does not.

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