I've been listening to Amity Shlaes a lot lately and growing in my appreciation for "Silent Cal." Coolidge's remarks about how we can only go backward if we dismiss the Declaration reminds me of a conundrum I've been facing recently: What should we call groups that are clearly mislabeled? Progressives aren't progressing toward anything desirable--tyranny or anarchy or mob rule--so they're not really progressing, Catholics aren't catholic, and the Orthodox aren't orthodox. To be polite, I still tend to address them by their own self identification, but it feels a bit off.
I thought it was a nice touch to term Frederick Douglas as a "second Founding Father." He truly was a towering historical figure.
Yeah, I like her. She has three main books she's known for. One on Coolidge. Another on the Great Depression/New Deal. And yet another on the Great Society under LBJ. So she lends insight to pivotal 20th-Century eras, showing how we got into the mess we're in.
There are a number of conference talks and interviews online that'll give you a good idea where she's coming from.
4th of July doesn't matter to me. Why? Christianity supersedes ANY political and national affiliation. Why I can *appreciate* it, I do NOT worship the United States of America. America is not a Christian nation no matter how you want to frame it. Many were Deists and denied the deity of Christ. And God doesn't "bless America". That's not BIBLICAL!
"4th of July doesn't matter to me. Why? Christianity supersedes ANY political and national affiliation."
I'd say Christianity is more important than political or national affiliation, but I wouldn't say Christianity "supersedes" political or national affiliation. The word "supersedes" signifies replacement or displacement, but Christianity doesn't necessarily replace or displace being (say) American.
"Why I can *appreciate* it, I do NOT worship the United States of America."
No one claimed appreciating the 4th of July is equivalent to "worship[ing] the United States of America".
"America is not a Christian nation no matter how you want to frame it."
No one claimed America is a Christian nation.
"Many were Deists and denied the deity of Christ."
1. Yes, many of the Founding Fathers were deists. Thomas Paine is sometimes said to have been an atheist, but he was no atheist, but a deist. That was quite common among the intelligentsia at the time.
2. However, many would have said they were "Christian" deists. For example, Thomas Jefferson publicly said he was a Christian, though privately he held deistic beliefs, even if his critics called him an atheist (e.g. the Federalists). And the Jefferson Bible - in which Jefferson removed miracles, the supernatural, and the like - was not something Jefferson ever wanted to be published. He only shared it with his friends.
3. Others weren't orthodox Christians, but they were strongly influenced by orthodox Christianity. John Adams was heavily influenced by his Christian upbringing. Benjamin Franklin enjoyed listening to George Whitefield preach. James Madison was a faithful Anglican until his 20s, then he moved away from it and toward a kind of Christian deism or perhaps unitarianism.
4. At the same time, there were orthodox Christians among the Founding Fathers. For example, Samuel Adams was a Calvinist or Puritan. Patrick Henry was a devout Anglican. Likewise John Jay was a devout Anglican.
5. All that said, few of the Founding Fathers would have had a problem with the public expression of Christianity. Few of the Founding Fathers would have discouraged public church attendance, public prayer, and so on, even if they privately disagreed with or even disliked Christianity.
"And God doesn't 'bless America'. That's not BIBLICAL!"
Why couldn't God bless a nation if God wanted to? For example, as Americans, "we the people" are the government. Popular sovereignty via elected representatives. If enough Christians constitute a local or state government, then God could bless the local government by way of blessing his people.
I would say God *can* bless a nation, but saying "God Bless America" is very weird to someone outside of America and oddly enough the association with the GOP has caused huge hypocrisy within the church (nationalism, cult following of Trump, etc).
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VlTvR6vokw8 <- this guy's an atheist and one of the big reasons he points out (well the RCC for one which we can agree has TONS of issues especially with the abuse) opposing say climate change simply isn't the hill I'm willing to die on. It's actually rather annoying that to be "liberal" is to not be Christian. And people moving to the Catholic church because they associate Protestantism with "liberal" is sad as well.
"saying "God Bless America" is very weird to someone outside of America"
1. You don't say why it's "weird" to "someone outside America". You just assume it's "weird".
2. Also, "someone outside America" is every non-American. That includes Europeans, Latin Americans, Asians, Africans, Muslims, Buddhists, Hindus, Jews, and so on. That's a huge group with hugely different beliefs and values.
3. You don't speak for every non-American. In fact, it's presumptuous (if not arrogant) of you to speak for every non-American like you've done above.
4. In any case, God blessing America doesn't preclude God blessing other nations if God wishes to bless other nations.
"and oddly enough the association with the GOP has caused huge hypocrisy within the church (nationalism, cult following of Trump, etc)."
1. I don't think conservative evangelicals are nationalistic if by nationalistic you have in mind something like pre-WW2 Germany. Some individuals may be nationalistic, but I wouldn't say that's true in general.
2. I think most conservative evangelicals are simply proud of their country. There's nothing wrong with being proud of being American. Just like there's nothing wrong with being proud of being Canadian, British, Brazilian, Indian, or whatever else.
3. I don't think there's a "cult following of Trump" among conservative evangelicals. We're not all brainwashed into Trumpism, though again some individuals might be (just like some liberals are brainwashed by leftism). I suspect this "cult" idea is closer to mainstream media caricatures of conservative evangelicals rather than borne out of what most conservative evangelicals honestly believe about Trump.
4. I think there's a case to be made for a "cult following of Bernie" among college students as well as other groups.
"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VlTvR6vokw8 <- this guy's an atheist and one of the big reasons he points out...opposing say climate change simply isn't the hill I'm willing to die on."
I doubt most conservative evangelicals think climate change is a hill to die on.
"It's actually rather annoying that to be "liberal" is to not be Christian."
I take it by liberal you mean political liberal, not theological liberal. If so, I think it's possible to be a political liberal but a genuine Christian. Of course, I'd say their politics are seriously misguided, but that doesn't necessarily mean they're not genuine Christians. Genuine Christians can be unwise, foolish, sinful, and so on.
"And people moving to the Catholic church because they associate Protestantism with "liberal" is sad as well."
I think you're talking about the mainline Protestant denominations, which are indeed dying. However, that's not necessarily the case with conservative evangelical churches which appear to be growing. And certainly conservative evangelicals are growing around the world, even if not in the US or other developed nations.
The Catholic church is hardly a safe harbor. It also seems to be liberalizing under Pope Francis.
"There's nothing wrong with being proud of being American. Just like there's nothing wrong with being proud of being Canadian, British, Brazilian, Indian, or whatever else."
In fairness, there are some horrific nations. For example, I wouldn't be proud of being North Korean if I was Korean.
I realize leftists often say America is evil or even more evil than many other nations, but I think that's largely based on their prejudicial ideology rather than truth.
I don't think I've ever met an Evangelical who even liked Trump, let alone worshiped the ground he walked on. The man is not particularly likeable! Most I knew did not vote for him in the primaries and "held their nose" if they voted for him in the general. (I live in a thoroughly red state. Trump didn't need my vote to win, and so he didn't get it.)
I think most were voting against Hillary, rather than for Trump. It has become crystal clear that she and her ilk are far more dangerous to the future of the country than Trump could ever dream of being. Trump is a businessman. A pragmatist. He loves those who help him get what he wants and hates those who get in the way of accomplishment. I tend to think many of his intemperate comments are little more than this sort of hostility.
This country went through a radical change during the Obama administration. Evangelicals just want a return to a modicum of reasonableness.
There is nothing about liberalism, per se, that precludes an Evangelical from espousing it. But there are all sorts of accoutrements that come along for the ride that are simply perverse from a biblical standpoint. Pro-choice. Same-sex marriage. Attacks on freedom of speech and freedom of religion. The needless stirring of racial animosity. Identity politics. Intersectionality. These are all illiberal concepts. There is absolutely nothing progressive or compassionate about them. They are dark. They are wicked. They are undeniably unchristian. They are sin.
There's nothing inherently wrong with social welfare or universal health...though they are usually run badly. And the latter can seriously curtail progress in the research and development of new medicines. (But the libertarian retort that taxes are theft--thus denying any sort of communitarian responsibilities--is also pretty unchristian.)
I've been poor all my life. In view of all my years of work, my average salary would place me well below the poverty line. When I take political tests online, I always come out a little left of center. But to vote for the Democratic Party these days is a bridge too far. (I might end up joining the American Solidarity Party, a Christian Democrat organization.)
So, be an all-warm-and-fuzzy bleeding-heart liberal to your heart's content. Just don't vote for tyrannical parties out to shred the fabric of the country. This coming election is indeed a fight for the "soul of the nation." Which is why Joe Biden must be defeated.
As far as Protestants becoming Catholic, this isn't a major trend. Far more Catholics are becoming Protestant (or leaving the faith entirely) than vice-versa. There are a couple of areas of exception to this. Among Protestant academics and intellectuals you see some movement towards Rome. Almost all of the popular Catholic apologists, for example, are converts. The other place you see it is among Anglo-Catholics and ultra-high-church Lutherans. Many Anglo-Catholic priests from the mainstream denomination The Episcopal Church defected after the TEC started ordaining practicing homosexuals to bishoprics. Rome welcomed them with open arms, establishing an Anglican ordinariate, allowing married clergy to remain practicing priests.
I've been listening to Amity Shlaes a lot lately and growing in my appreciation for "Silent Cal." Coolidge's remarks about how we can only go backward if we dismiss the Declaration reminds me of a conundrum I've been facing recently: What should we call groups that are clearly mislabeled? Progressives aren't progressing toward anything desirable--tyranny or anarchy or mob rule--so they're not really progressing, Catholics aren't catholic, and the Orthodox aren't orthodox. To be polite, I still tend to address them by their own self identification, but it feels a bit off.
ReplyDeleteI thought it was a nice touch to term Frederick Douglas as a "second Founding Father." He truly was a towering historical figure.
Thanks, Eric. I've never listened to or read Amity Shlaes. Is she worth listening to or reading?
DeleteYeah, I like her. She has three main books she's known for. One on Coolidge. Another on the Great Depression/New Deal. And yet another on the Great Society under LBJ. So she lends insight to pivotal 20th-Century eras, showing how we got into the mess we're in.
ReplyDeleteThere are a number of conference talks and interviews online that'll give you a good idea where she's coming from.
4th of July doesn't matter to me. Why? Christianity supersedes ANY political and national affiliation. Why I can *appreciate* it, I do NOT worship the United States of America. America is not a Christian nation no matter how you want to frame it. Many were Deists and denied the deity of Christ. And God doesn't "bless America". That's not BIBLICAL!
ReplyDeleteWilson
Delete"4th of July doesn't matter to me. Why? Christianity supersedes ANY political and national affiliation."
I'd say Christianity is more important than political or national affiliation, but I wouldn't say Christianity "supersedes" political or national affiliation. The word "supersedes" signifies replacement or displacement, but Christianity doesn't necessarily replace or displace being (say) American.
"Why I can *appreciate* it, I do NOT worship the United States of America."
No one claimed appreciating the 4th of July is equivalent to "worship[ing] the United States of America".
"America is not a Christian nation no matter how you want to frame it."
No one claimed America is a Christian nation.
"Many were Deists and denied the deity of Christ."
1. Yes, many of the Founding Fathers were deists. Thomas Paine is sometimes said to have been an atheist, but he was no atheist, but a deist. That was quite common among the intelligentsia at the time.
2. However, many would have said they were "Christian" deists. For example, Thomas Jefferson publicly said he was a Christian, though privately he held deistic beliefs, even if his critics called him an atheist (e.g. the Federalists). And the Jefferson Bible - in which Jefferson removed miracles, the supernatural, and the like - was not something Jefferson ever wanted to be published. He only shared it with his friends.
3. Others weren't orthodox Christians, but they were strongly influenced by orthodox Christianity. John Adams was heavily influenced by his Christian upbringing. Benjamin Franklin enjoyed listening to George Whitefield preach. James Madison was a faithful Anglican until his 20s, then he moved away from it and toward a kind of Christian deism or perhaps unitarianism.
4. At the same time, there were orthodox Christians among the Founding Fathers. For example, Samuel Adams was a Calvinist or Puritan. Patrick Henry was a devout Anglican. Likewise John Jay was a devout Anglican.
5. All that said, few of the Founding Fathers would have had a problem with the public expression of Christianity. Few of the Founding Fathers would have discouraged public church attendance, public prayer, and so on, even if they privately disagreed with or even disliked Christianity.
"And God doesn't 'bless America'. That's not BIBLICAL!"
Why couldn't God bless a nation if God wanted to? For example, as Americans, "we the people" are the government. Popular sovereignty via elected representatives. If enough Christians constitute a local or state government, then God could bless the local government by way of blessing his people.
I would say God *can* bless a nation, but saying "God Bless America" is very weird to someone outside of America and oddly enough the association with the GOP has caused huge hypocrisy within the church (nationalism, cult following of Trump, etc).
ReplyDeletehttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VlTvR6vokw8 <- this guy's an atheist and one of the big reasons he points out (well the RCC for one which we can agree has TONS of issues especially with the abuse) opposing say climate change simply isn't the hill I'm willing to die on. It's actually rather annoying that to be "liberal" is to not be Christian. And people moving to the Catholic church because they associate Protestantism with "liberal" is sad as well.
"saying "God Bless America" is very weird to someone outside of America"
Delete1. You don't say why it's "weird" to "someone outside America". You just assume it's "weird".
2. Also, "someone outside America" is every non-American. That includes Europeans, Latin Americans, Asians, Africans, Muslims, Buddhists, Hindus, Jews, and so on. That's a huge group with hugely different beliefs and values.
3. You don't speak for every non-American. In fact, it's presumptuous (if not arrogant) of you to speak for every non-American like you've done above.
4. In any case, God blessing America doesn't preclude God blessing other nations if God wishes to bless other nations.
"and oddly enough the association with the GOP has caused huge hypocrisy within the church (nationalism, cult following of Trump, etc)."
1. I don't think conservative evangelicals are nationalistic if by nationalistic you have in mind something like pre-WW2 Germany. Some individuals may be nationalistic, but I wouldn't say that's true in general.
2. I think most conservative evangelicals are simply proud of their country. There's nothing wrong with being proud of being American. Just like there's nothing wrong with being proud of being Canadian, British, Brazilian, Indian, or whatever else.
3. I don't think there's a "cult following of Trump" among conservative evangelicals. We're not all brainwashed into Trumpism, though again some individuals might be (just like some liberals are brainwashed by leftism). I suspect this "cult" idea is closer to mainstream media caricatures of conservative evangelicals rather than borne out of what most conservative evangelicals honestly believe about Trump.
4. I think there's a case to be made for a "cult following of Bernie" among college students as well as other groups.
"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VlTvR6vokw8 <- this guy's an atheist and one of the big reasons he points out...opposing say climate change simply isn't the hill I'm willing to die on."
I doubt most conservative evangelicals think climate change is a hill to die on.
"It's actually rather annoying that to be "liberal" is to not be Christian."
I take it by liberal you mean political liberal, not theological liberal. If so, I think it's possible to be a political liberal but a genuine Christian. Of course, I'd say their politics are seriously misguided, but that doesn't necessarily mean they're not genuine Christians. Genuine Christians can be unwise, foolish, sinful, and so on.
"And people moving to the Catholic church because they associate Protestantism with "liberal" is sad as well."
I think you're talking about the mainline Protestant denominations, which are indeed dying. However, that's not necessarily the case with conservative evangelical churches which appear to be growing. And certainly conservative evangelicals are growing around the world, even if not in the US or other developed nations.
The Catholic church is hardly a safe harbor. It also seems to be liberalizing under Pope Francis.
"There's nothing wrong with being proud of being American. Just like there's nothing wrong with being proud of being Canadian, British, Brazilian, Indian, or whatever else."
DeleteIn fairness, there are some horrific nations. For example, I wouldn't be proud of being North Korean if I was Korean.
I realize leftists often say America is evil or even more evil than many other nations, but I think that's largely based on their prejudicial ideology rather than truth.
Wilson--
ReplyDeleteI don't think I've ever met an Evangelical who even liked Trump, let alone worshiped the ground he walked on. The man is not particularly likeable! Most I knew did not vote for him in the primaries and "held their nose" if they voted for him in the general. (I live in a thoroughly red state. Trump didn't need my vote to win, and so he didn't get it.)
I think most were voting against Hillary, rather than for Trump. It has become crystal clear that she and her ilk are far more dangerous to the future of the country than Trump could ever dream of being. Trump is a businessman. A pragmatist. He loves those who help him get what he wants and hates those who get in the way of accomplishment. I tend to think many of his intemperate comments are little more than this sort of hostility.
This country went through a radical change during the Obama administration. Evangelicals just want a return to a modicum of reasonableness.
There is nothing about liberalism, per se, that precludes an Evangelical from espousing it. But there are all sorts of accoutrements that come along for the ride that are simply perverse from a biblical standpoint. Pro-choice. Same-sex marriage. Attacks on freedom of speech and freedom of religion. The needless stirring of racial animosity. Identity politics. Intersectionality. These are all illiberal concepts. There is absolutely nothing progressive or compassionate about them. They are dark. They are wicked. They are undeniably unchristian. They are sin.
There's nothing inherently wrong with social welfare or universal health...though they are usually run badly. And the latter can seriously curtail progress in the research and development of new medicines. (But the libertarian retort that taxes are theft--thus denying any sort of communitarian responsibilities--is also pretty unchristian.)
I've been poor all my life. In view of all my years of work, my average salary would place me well below the poverty line. When I take political tests online, I always come out a little left of center. But to vote for the Democratic Party these days is a bridge too far. (I might end up joining the American Solidarity Party, a Christian Democrat organization.)
So, be an all-warm-and-fuzzy bleeding-heart liberal to your heart's content. Just don't vote for tyrannical parties out to shred the fabric of the country. This coming election is indeed a fight for the "soul of the nation." Which is why Joe Biden must be defeated.
As far as Protestants becoming Catholic, this isn't a major trend. Far more Catholics are becoming Protestant (or leaving the faith entirely) than vice-versa. There are a couple of areas of exception to this. Among Protestant academics and intellectuals you see some movement towards Rome. Almost all of the popular Catholic apologists, for example, are converts. The other place you see it is among Anglo-Catholics and ultra-high-church Lutherans. Many Anglo-Catholic priests from the mainstream denomination The Episcopal Church defected after the TEC started ordaining practicing homosexuals to bishoprics. Rome welcomed them with open arms, establishing an Anglican ordinariate, allowing married clergy to remain practicing priests.