Have they explicitly affirmed this, or are you making an inference? I haven't gone deep into reading the Arminian literature, but I thought libertarian freedom was the one thing those types would never give up, Scripture notwithstanding. I'd be very surprised to find that they admit the regenerate are not libertarian free.
Indeed. On a libertarian freedom paradigm, 'eternal security' is incoherent. That's the point. This is an inconsistency for proponents of libertarian freedom. An *internal critique* of such a position finds it wanting.
I get that it doesn't make sense, but I'm asking if they (Olson et al.) have themselves admitted that explicitly. Most of the lay Arminians I debate try to hold onto both "eternal security" and libertarian freedom. Do Olson and Co. make the same blunder, or are they clear-sighted enough to say, "yeah, the two don't mix."
I take John's point to be that Arminians who hold to 'eternal security' by definition cannot *really* or *consistently* believe in libertarian freedom for the regenerate believer. I don't take John to be claiming that Olson and other Arminians have *conceded* that they are inconsistent at this point, though he can correct me if I'm wrong.
Does God know what the elect will do in heaven/new heavens and new earth for all eternity? That seems paradoxical since "eternity" doesn't have an "end". Is it possible that God decrees our actions to a certain point and once this point arrives then He decrees again? I'm sorry if the question is not related to the post, but I cannot stop thinking about it.
You seem to be assuming that the only kind of infinite is a potential infinite rather than an actual infinite. Although eternity is endless, that doesn't mean it can't be a complete totality. Moreover, the future unfolds according to how God predestined future events to unfold.
To expand on my answer: as Cantor demonstrated, an actual infinite is possible. With respect to your question, God's decree of the timeline is an actual abstract infinite.
If the B-theory of time is true, then the real timeline is an actual concrete infinite. If the A-theory of time is true, then the real timeline is a potential concrete infinite.
In either case, real events pair off with their decretal counterparts. Even if the A-theory is true, and the future isn't real (as of yet), each and every future event will correspond to what God decreed.
Olson and other Arminians who affirm "eternal security" don't even believe in libertarian freedom for the regenerate believer.
ReplyDeleteHave they explicitly affirmed this, or are you making an inference? I haven't gone deep into reading the Arminian literature, but I thought libertarian freedom was the one thing those types would never give up, Scripture notwithstanding. I'd be very surprised to find that they admit the regenerate are not libertarian free.
DeleteBlake, if they affirm eternal security then, by default, they are not free in a libertarian sense to reject the gospel after they are saved.
DeleteIndeed. On a libertarian freedom paradigm, 'eternal security' is incoherent. That's the point. This is an inconsistency for proponents of libertarian freedom. An *internal critique* of such a position finds it wanting.
DeleteI get that it doesn't make sense, but I'm asking if they (Olson et al.) have themselves admitted that explicitly. Most of the lay Arminians I debate try to hold onto both "eternal security" and libertarian freedom. Do Olson and Co. make the same blunder, or are they clear-sighted enough to say, "yeah, the two don't mix."
DeleteBlake,
DeleteI take John's point to be that Arminians who hold to 'eternal security' by definition cannot *really* or *consistently* believe in libertarian freedom for the regenerate believer. I don't take John to be claiming that Olson and other Arminians have *conceded* that they are inconsistent at this point, though he can correct me if I'm wrong.
Does God know what the elect will do in heaven/new heavens and new earth for all eternity? That seems paradoxical since "eternity" doesn't have an "end". Is it possible that God decrees our actions to a certain point and once this point arrives then He decrees again? I'm sorry if the question is not related to the post, but I cannot stop thinking about it.
ReplyDeleteYou seem to be assuming that the only kind of infinite is a potential infinite rather than an actual infinite. Although eternity is endless, that doesn't mean it can't be a complete totality. Moreover, the future unfolds according to how God predestined future events to unfold.
DeleteTo expand on my answer: as Cantor demonstrated, an actual infinite is possible. With respect to your question, God's decree of the timeline is an actual abstract infinite.
DeleteIf the B-theory of time is true, then the real timeline is an actual concrete infinite. If the A-theory of time is true, then the real timeline is a potential concrete infinite.
In either case, real events pair off with their decretal counterparts. Even if the A-theory is true, and the future isn't real (as of yet), each and every future event will correspond to what God decreed.