Apostate Dale Tuggy attempted to critique Bnonn's argument (comment #'s 3, 5) on:
Naturally, Dale tries to formulate a dilemma using his standard tactics. Recasting the issue in terms favorable to his anti-Trinitarianism.
However, for purposes of Bnonn's syllogism, it isn't necessary to get technical. Rather, it's sufficient to say that:
i) Muslims don't view Jesus as divine in the same sense that Scripture views Jesus as divine
ii) Muslims don't worship Jesus in the same way that Scripture commends worship of Jesus
Indeed, (i) & (ii) are understated.
Of course, Tuggy rejects the Christian interpretation of Biblical Christology, but Tuggy's interpretation was never the standard of comparison for Bnonn's syllogism.
"Recasting the issue in terms favorable to his anti-Trinitarianism."
ReplyDeleteHow so, Steve? This is an empty charge, unless you say how. And the charge of "obfuscation" - that's hilarious, if someone actually reads my comments there. It's telling, how quick you are to turn to personal attack.
Your i) and ii) are surely true. But how exactly does this difference in christology relate to the matter of his post, which was: do Christians and Muslims worship the same god?
I'm guessing that you just want to ignore my comments there about how Jesus and God, on *your* views, can't be numerically identical. (This is why you want to switch to conveniently ambiguous "divine".) But, let's suppose they are, that Jesus just is God and vice-versa. But then, in your view, Muslims may worship God (e.g. as the Creator, the god of Abraham, etc) and disapprove of worshiping Jesus, and refuse to worship him, not realizing that they are one and the same. This is not a coherent position. But note that they would be worshiping God.
On the other hand, suppose you grant, like most evangelical philosophers, that Jesus and the one God are somehow closely related, but are not identical, not numerically one. Well, your i) and ii) just aren't relevant to the question, right? If the one God is someone else, then it might be that Muslims worship him while failing to properly worship God's Son. Of course, this may amount to failing to fully or properly worship God, given what he's done through his Son. But it would still stand that they were worshiping God, to some degree.
"How so, Steve? This is an empty charge, unless you say how."
DeleteI've written 72 posts in response to you. I don't need to rehearse the supporting material every time I do a new post on your latest shenanigans.
"I'm guessing that you just want to ignore my comments there about how Jesus and God, on *your* views, can't be numerically identical. (This is why you want to switch to conveniently ambiguous 'divine'.)"
I appreciate how frustrating it is for you when I step around your trap rather than stepping into your trap.
And I didn't just say "divine," but divine in the same sense that the Bible views Jesus as divine. I've gone over the exegetical data in great detail in past posts.
Jesus is "divine" in the same sense that Yahweh is divine. Jesus is "divine" in the same sense that the Father is divine. That's the only specification I need.
"But then, in your view, Muslims may worship God (e.g. as the Creator, the god of Abraham, etc) and disapprove of worshiping Jesus, and refuse to worship him, not realizing that they are one and the same. This is not a coherent position. But note that they would be worshiping God."
This is not a failure of realization on their part, but deliberate rejection of the Biblical witness.
They don't worship the God of the historical Abraham. They worship the God of the Koranic Abraham. The Koran is pious fiction.
I find it amazing that you're so fixated on my alleged shortcomings that you're literally unable to talk about the issue.
ReplyDeleteIn the end all you have is an assertion: "I *say* (ex blogedra) that they worship a fiction." Well, maybe that's true, but people who want actual thoughtful consideration of the issue should go here instead: http://maverickphilosopher.typepad.com/maverick_philosopher/2015/02/the-god-of-christianity-and-the-god-of-islam-same-god-2015.html
Well, I'm off to setting traps, engaging in shenanigans, and twirling my mustache like Snidely Whiplash.
That's because I don't need to reinvent the wheel. Take D. S. Margoliouth's classic The Early Development of Mohammedanism.
Delete