Gagnon v. Vines

Robert A. J. Gagnon

2 hrs · Pittsburgh, PA · Edited · 

I am copying here the conversation between Matthew Vines and me at Preston Sprinkle's website:https://www.facebook.com/preston.sprinkle.7/posts/10152838151004859?notif_t=comment_mention . Preston is a professor of New Testament at Eternity Bible College, currently working on a book about homosexuality. Matthew Vines, as doubtless you know, is a young (24 year-old) same-sex attracted Harvard guy (not graduated, though; quit after 2 years to pursue his objective to convert Christians to his view) who is heading up a "Reformation Project" to convince the church that Jesus and the writers of Scripture were not opposed to committed homosexual unions entered into by homosexually oriented people. Here it is (for now at least):

1. Matthew Vines:

I disagree about Brownson. Gagnon's interpretation of Genesis 1-2 lies at the heart of all of his other exegesis of Scripture re: same-sex relations. That is the very foundation of his scriptural argument, and Brownson quite thoroughly dismantled it. Notably, Gagnon has not responded at all to that core challenge -- in fact, he's completely ignored it. Personally, I think that's because his reading of Genesis 1-2 can't be put back together again after Brownson's response. And that is not a good sign for the rest of Gagnon's case.

2. Preston Sprinkle:

Matthew, .... I'll let Robert chime in if he wants, but I don't see his arguments resting on Gen 1-2 at all. In fact, his book is nearly 500 pages and he only devotes 6 pages to Gen 1-3. Anyway, no need for me to defend Gagnon. It's just my impression.

I actually agree with Brownson's view of "one flesh" and several other points he made in Gen 1-2. I just think he stretches some of their implications. And he didn't deal with other issues in Gen 1-2 (e.g. the use of kenagdo in 2:18, 20; the underlying emphasis on creational complimentarity, etc.) in that passage. Of course, you can't do it all. But I would hardly say that Brownson's reading of Gen 1-2 ends up dismantling Gagnon's 494 other pages of exegesis.

3. Robert A. J. Gagnon:

Hey Matthew Vines, where do you think Brownson dismantled my argument on Gen 1-2? I don't see it. Be specific, right here. What is his argument that you find convincing and what is the evidence? I will be responding to Brownson in due course. Other more pressing obligations have taken up my time. There is so much that is wrong in Brownson's work that it will take a significant chunk of my time to point it all out and resupply the evidence that I have already supplied but which he (and you) have ignored.

If Brownson has dismantled my work, and you believe this to be the case, why won't you debate or dialogue with me in a public forum. Brownson has repeatedly refused such requests. What are you guys afraid of? I should be easy pickings, based on your comments above. The fact that you two (or anyone else) won't engage me in a real-time public debate, filmed, and available for others to watch, is self-evident, isn't it? If I were as worried or stumped as you say that I am, I would be terrified at the prospect of folding like a house of cards in public debate or dialogue. But that seems rather to characterize the actions of Brownson and yourself in ducking a debate.

Don't worry. It will be a friendly discussion. No name calling. Just lay out the evidence and let the audience decide. Nobody has anything to fear insofar as neither you nor I (nor Brownson) should be making false representations of Scripture, right? I mean, we would want to be corrected if we were misrepresenting God, wouldn't we? A problem would only come if we deep down know that we are misrepresenting Scripture and the hermeneutical application of it to others but feel compelled to misrepresent it in order to maintain an ideological objective more important to us than speaking truthfully about what Scripture says and what it means.

4. Robert A. J. Gagnon:

I've already addressed the "one flesh" thing in my Scottish Journal of Theology article rebutting Prof. Stacy Johnson of Princeton Seminary. I have a copy of the article on my website:http://www.robgagnon.net/arti.../homosexStacyJohnsonSJT2.pdf. See pp. 10-11:

"Johnson argues that ‘one flesh’ in Gen 2:24 has the asexual meaning ‘the same family’ since the formula ‘you are my bone and my flesh’ is ‘more about kinship than sexuality’ (Gen 29:14; et al.; 145-47). In response:

"First, introducing a sexual dimension in some covenantal relationships violates the covenant. An obvious case in point is the very example that Johnson uses to validate homosexual unions, Ruth and Naomi. Had Ruth and Naomi engaged in sexual intercourse they would have committed a capital offense of incest between parent and daughter-in-law, irrespective of their loving commitment (Lev 18:15; 20:12). Sexual bonds have their own distinct set of requirements.

"Second, context dictates meaning. When we use the comparable phrase ‘you are my flesh and blood,’ it means something different when spoken by a husband to his wife (a sexual context) than when spoken by a parent to a child, a brother to a sister, or a friend to a friend.

"Third, the specific expression ‘one flesh’ does not appear anywhere else in the OT or in early Jewish or early rabbinic texts apart from a reference to Gen 2:24. This makes it unlikely to have been an expression for denoting covenant bonds outside a context of man-woman marriage.

"Fourth, it takes a determined effort to ignore the fivefold reference in 2:21-23 to forming woman by taking from the ’ādām a part of him. The ’ādām declares not merely that the woman ‘is my bone and my flesh’ but, more, that the woman ‘is bone from my bones and flesh from my flesh … for from man this one was taken’ (2:23). What is missing from the ’ādām (human), who is now an ’îš (man), is the part that God has built into a woman. In this context ‘one flesh’ clearly implies the restoration of the two divisible parts into an indivisible whole, not just ‘the same family.’

This is certainly how Jesus and Paul understood Gen 2:24. The meaning ‘same family’ would not restrict the number of participants to two, since families are not limited to two members. Yet both Jesus and Paul (1 Cor 6:16) understood ‘one flesh’ unions as properly restricted to two. Having additional sexual partners violates the principle that a man-woman sexual bond creates a self-contained whole that ought to admit of no third parties. In this context talk of ‘cleaving’ must have its deepest sense of reuniting through a committed sexual bond what was once a single entity: the two, ‘male and female’ or ‘a man’ and ‘his woman/wife.’

Jesus himself clearly understood ‘two becoming one flesh’ in the sense of an exclusive sexual bond between two and only two people. If the meaning of ‘one flesh’ were merely ‘the same family’ as Johnson thinks, there would be no reason to restrict the number of participants in the sexual union to two, since there is no criterion that families can only have two members. The sexual act is obviously part of, and emblematic or symbolic of, two persons merging into a single, exclusive entity that admits of no third parties in the sexual relationship. In this context talk of ‘cleaving’ (i.e., sticking, joining, uniting) must have its deepest sense of bringing back together through a committed sexual bond what was once a single entity: the two, ‘male and female’ or ‘a man’ and ‘his woman/wife,’ remerging as one.

What is your next point, Matthew Vines?

5. Matthew Vines:

Hi, Dr. Gagnon-- thank you for your comment. First, Brownson offers an extended critique of your reading of the creation texts in chapter two of "Bible, Gender, Sexuality." In particular, he argues against your view that the Yahwist treats marriage as a "reunion of the sexual unity of the original adam," pointing out that your evidence for interpreting the text that way rests largely on the third-century AD rabbi Samuel bar Nahman rather than any commentary within Scripture itself. His chapter obviously goes into considerably more detail than I can recap here, and I think it deserves a response.

Moreover, he makes what I believe is a compelling case against your view that Paul invokes same-sex relations in Romans 1:26-27 in part because of that which is "plainly" or "visibly" wrong about such relationships -- i.e., the alleged anatomical discomplementarity of same-sex relations. As Brownson writes on p. 241, "Gagnon argues that this text focuses on what is visible, or 'plain.' Therefore, what is contrary to nature about same-sex eroticism must focus on plain or visible differences between men and women. But this reading confuses Paul's meaning. What Paul actually says in these two verses is that what can be known about God is plain or visible in the creation, specifically God's eternal power and divine nature. The focus here is not on knowledge of human things, but on the knowledge of God. The text goes on to say that when this knowledge of God is suppressed through idolatry, the consequences are that God 'hands over' idolatrous humans to lust and the degrading of their bodies (Rom. 1:24). Gagnon confuses the initial revelation about God suppressed by idolatrous humans (which focuses on visible things) with the later 'handing over' of humans into depravity (which focuses on lust, shame, and the violation of what is 'natural'). Romans 1 says nothing particular at all about the 'visible' quality of nature...."

Another example is what Brownson writes on p. 200 about your argument that "Scripture avoids the twin extremes of too much structural identity between sex partners and too little." He says, "Gagnon attempts to make this case by appealing to Lev. 18:6, where prohibited incestuous relationships are characterized as relations with the 'flesh of one's flesh.'... But this argument is unsustainable when we bring forward analogous texts. The man in Gen. 2:23 speaks of the newly created woman as 'flesh of my flesh.' How can 'flesh of my flesh' denote appropriate gender complementarity in Gen. 2:23, but an almost identical phrase connote 'too much structural identity' in Lev. 18:6? These problems suggest that this entire line of reasoning ('too much' or 'too little' difference) is foreign to the logic of Scripture itself. In both cases, the issue is not the ratio of similarity and difference, but the recognition of kinship bonds."

These are just several examples. To my knowledge, Brownson was invited to a debate with you prior to his book's publication, but declined then as he wanted his work to be published before doing a debate. I am not aware of any invitations you or other organizations have issued to him since the publication of his book for you both to debate. I know that is a conversation he would be open to considering. But I also think it would make the most sense for you to publish a detailed written response (as you often do) to his specific exegetical and academic contentions prior to a debate in order to have a potential event be as productive as possible. And while I am open to doing public dialogues, debates, etc., in this situation, I think it would be more appropriate for Brownson to do that instead, as he has important scholarly credentials I do not have, and as he is the one who has most extensively critiqued your work. In fact, given that his book is increasingly regarded as perhaps the most thorough academic rebuttal to your own, it surprises me that you have not published a detailed written response yet, as you do in so many other cases. I know I and many others would appreciate seeing such a response.

6. Robert A. J. Gagnon:

Matthew, I will deal with your other points later today. But, regarding debates with Jim Brownson, he declined that debate (to which you refer) on the grounds that he didn't want this to turn into a debate but rather wanted to bring unity to the church. But since I wasn't asking for us to come to blows but simply respond to each other's arguments, he gave nothing more than an excuse. Since that time there have been a couple of occasions when people have approached me about a debate and I immediately suggest Brownson and then they come back and tell me that he doesn't want to debate Gagnon. So I will say again publicly, as I have said on many occasions, that I will be delighted to debate or dialogue with Dr. Brownson at any occasion where we have equal time to present our positions, and preferably adequate time for rebuttal arguments. You know Jim, Matthew. Ask him yourself if he is willing to debate or dialogue with me in a public forum. If Jim is willing to do it, I'm sure some theological institution would love to sponsor this kind of event.

And let me also take up your statement, Matthew: "I am open to doing public dialogues, debates, etc." Are you willing then to engage me in a church, college, or seminary forum? If so, I'm sure we can make that happen. This is not to the exclusion of debating Jim Brownson. I would love to debate him too, separately from you, though again you will find that Jim doesn't want to do it.

7. Preston Sprinkle: Whoa...and here we go

8. Matthew Vines:

I am open to considering that, yes. But I think Brownson would be a better debate partner than I. I will see him next week and gauge his interest level. That said, I still think a written response from you would be quite helpful prior to the arranging of any formal event.

9. Robert A. J. Gagnon:

I'll start with your 2nd paragraph, Matthew. Brownson's argument is flawed because the fact that Rom 1:24-27 speaks about desires is not antithetical to the argument about visible structures in creation. On the contrary, Paul's point is precisely that these desires are opposed to the visible structures observable in nature. "Nature" in context is simply the well-working processes set in motion at creation. The nature argument in 1:24-27 clearly coordinates with the creation argument in 1:29-23. The desires for "use (intercourse) contrary to nature." The reason why Paul selects homosexual practice among all other sexual offences in this particular context is precisely because it affords the best parallel on the horizontal level to the deliberate "suppressing of the truth" (1:18) laid out in the vertical dimension of idolatry in 1:19-23.

In other words, those who had suppressed the truth about God visible in creation went on to suppress the truth about themselves visible in nature. It is not just a matter of dishonoring but of dishonoring that comes about by suppressing foundational knowledge of the truth that is clearly accessible through a proper perception of the still-intact material structures of creation (i.e., seen in nature). The key parallel is the absurd denial of natural revelation in one’s worship of God and intercourse with other humans.

The case for nature in Rom 1:26-27 referring to male-female embodied complementarity is cinched by the use of just such arguments by Greco-Roman philosophers, moralists, and physicians. According to the classicist Thomas K. Hubbard, “basic to the heterosexual position [against homosexual practice in the Greco-Roman world of the first few centuries C.E.] is the characteristic Stoic appeal to the providence of Nature, which has matched and fitted the sexes to each other.” Similarly, classicist Craig Williams, who has written what many regard as the premiere book on Roman homosexuality, concedes: “Some kind of argument from ‘design’ seems to lurk in the background of Cicero’s, Seneca’s, and Musonius’ claims [against homosexual practice].” Also classicist William Schoedel, emeritus of the University of Illinois, acknowledges that ancient writers “who appeal to nature against same-sex eros find it convenient to concentrate on the more or less obvious uses of the orifices of the body to suggest the proper channel for the more diffused sexual impulses of the body.”

The second-century physician Soranus (or his later “translator” Caelius Aurelianus) referred to molles, “soft men” eager for penetration (the Latin equivalent for the term malakoi in 1 Cor 6:9), as those who “subjugated to obscene uses parts not so intended” and disregarded “the places of our body which divine providence destined for definite functions” (On Chronic Diseases 4.9.131). Part of Charicles’ attack on all homosexual practice in the pseudo-Lucianic text Affairs of the Heart, a work that contains a debate about the respective merits of heterosexual love and homosexual love, is the assertion that male-male love is an erotic attraction for what one already is as a sexual being: “Then wantonness, daring all, transgressed the laws of nature. . . . And who then first looked with the eyes at the male as at a female . . . ? One nature came together in one bed. But seeing themselves in one another they were ashamed neither of what they were doing nor of what they were having done to them” (19-20; my translation).

Appealing to the material structures obvious to view is a common trope of Stoic moral discourse. Jews and Christians appropriated this trope in their own discussions of nature. It is hardly surprising that Paul does so here.

Care to respond, Matthew? If not, let's bring James Brownson in, if he is on FB.

10. Robert A. J. Gagnon:

Matthew, in your third paragraph above you say:

'Another example is what Brownson writes on p. 200 about your argument that "Scripture avoids the twin extremes of too much structural identity between sex partners and too little." He says, "Gagnon attempts to make this case by appealing to Lev. 18:6, where prohibited incestuous relationships are characterized as relations with the 'flesh of one's flesh.'... But this argument is unsustainable when we bring forward analogous texts. The man in Gen. 2:23 speaks of the newly created woman as 'flesh of my flesh.' How can 'flesh of my flesh' denote appropriate gender complementarity in Gen. 2:23, but an almost identical phrase connote 'too much structural identity' in Lev. 18:6? These problems suggest that this entire line of reasoning ('too much' or 'too little' difference) is foreign to the logic of Scripture itself. In both cases, the issue is not the ratio of similarity and difference, but the recognition of kinship bonds."'

Unfortunately, Brownson seems to think that I've written nothing about the Bible and homosexual practice since the 2001 book. Prof. Stacy Johnson made the same argument that Brownson made and my response to Johnson in the Scottish Journal of Theology article (all cited above) remains the same:

"As regards Gen 2:18-24, Johnson argues that the 'adam’s exclamation at the creation of woman (2:23) ‘does not celebrate her otherness but her sameness’ (120): ‘This one at last is bone from my bones and flesh from my flesh! To this one shall be given the name “woman” ('isshah) for from man ('ish) this one was taken.’

"Johnson’s argument makes an either-or out of a both-and. The first half of Gen 2:23 does stress, in part, human sameness in contrast to the animals, among which God had not found ‘a helper as [the 'adam's] counterpart.’ Yet Johnson ignores the repeated references in 2:21-23 to woman being formed by a ‘taking from’ 'adam. As a ‘counterpart’ or ‘complement’ to man (kenegdo), woman is both similar as human (‘corresponding to him’) and different as a distinct sex extracted from him (‘opposite him’). There is also some basis for translating Hebrew tsela‘ as ‘side’ rather than ‘rib’ or at least as an indeterminate amount of bone and flesh on one of adam’s sides, from which is formed man’s sacred side or complement, woman. The principle of two sexes becoming one flesh is correlated with the picture of two sexes being formed from one flesh. It is not another man that is the missing part or sexual complement of a man but rather a woman, a point reflected in several early Jewish texts (Philo of Alexandria, Allegorical Interpretation 2.19-21 and Creation 152; 4 Macc 18:7; Apocalypse of Moses 29:9-10)."

The fact that 4 times in the short space of Gen 2:21-23 the text emphasizes that something was extracted from the human surely indicates that man and woman are complementary parts of the same sexual whole.

-God ‘took one of [literally: one from] the 'adam’s sides/ribs’ (2:21).
-God ‘built the side/rib that he took from the 'adam into a woman (2:22).
-The 'adam declares not merely that the woman ‘is my bone and my flesh’ but something more, namely, that the woman ‘is bone from my bones and flesh from my flesh … for from man this one was taken’ (2:23).

This idea of woman being made from an original human/man is important because it diverges from the traditional Mesopotamian story of the creation of woman, written a few generations after Hammurabi. In Atra-hasīs seven human males and seven human females are formed separately from a mixture of clay and the flesh/blood of a slaughtered god. Woman is not molded from material extracted from man and so there isn’t anything missing from man.

It is probably not mere coincidence that the gender specific word 'ish, ‘man,’ does not appear until after material is taken from the 'adam, ‘human’ or ‘ground creature.’ True, Gen 2:23 states that woman was taken ‘from man’ (me'ish). Yet this appears to be a statement formulated in retrospect. ‘Thus he discovers his own manhood and fulfillment only when he faces the woman, the human being who is to be his partner in life’ (Nahum Sarna, Genesis, 23).

Woman relates to man “as his counterpart” or “complement” (Gen 2:18, 20). The Hebrew term here is kenegdo, which consists of ke- meaning "as, like"; suffix -o meaning "(of) him, his"; and neged connoting both "corresponding to" (i.e., similarity as humans) and "opposite" (i.e. difference as regards a distinct sex extracted from him). Translations that correctly capture this sense of difference within sameness are “counterpart” and “complement.” A woman is man’s sexual counterpart or complement. A man is not another man’s sexual complement or counterpart, nor a woman a woman’s—anatomically, physiologically, and psychologically—no matter how hard the same-sex partner may try to simulate that role.

Context indicates that Lev 18:6 identifies as the key problem of incest that of attempting a sexual union with "the flesh of one's flesh," someone who is too much of a formal same as regards kinship. Brownson's translation of Gen 2:23 ("flesh of my flesh") obscures a key difference in the Hebrew text with Lev 18:6 ("flesh of one's flesh," in addition to Lev 18:6 using 2 different words for "flesh"). In Gen 2:23 the preposition min is used: "flesh from my flesh." Lev 18:6 simply uses a construct chain denoting possession. Flesh is extracted from the human ('adam) to form woman and thereafter the human is also designated an 'ish, a gender-specific man. As with the term kenegdo (see paragraph above), that image conveys not just sameness but difference because it denotes a now missing part. There is an appropriate sameness so far as a fellow human is concerned; but there is equally appropriate difference so far as sex or gender is concerned.

The problematic dimension of sex-sameness is conveyed both in the Levitical prohibitions and in Paul's treatments in Rom 1:26-27 and 1 Cor 6:9. The Levitical prohibitions forbid a man from lying with another male as though lying with a sexual counterpart, a woman. Inferred in the prohibition is a structural compatibility between man and woman and thus a structural incompatibility with another male. The term arsenokoitai in 1 Cor 6:9 makes the same point: "men who lie with a male," someone who in terms of sex/gender is a same rather than a complementary other. Romans 1:27 refers to "males (having sex) with males," an obvious allusion to much gender sameness, especially given the explicit contrast with "the natural use of the female." So Brownson thinks the concept of uber-sameness is "foreign to the logic of Scripture"? Really? "Males with males" as opposed to "males with females"? That's not connoting too much gender sameness?

The point of too much embodied sameness, not enough structural otherness, is confirmed in the complementarity arguments from the Greco-Roman milieu that I cite in the previous comment, including Charicles’ attack on all homosexual practice in the pseudo-Lucianic text Affairs of the Heart: “Then wantonness, daring all, transgressed the laws of nature. . . . One nature came together in one bed. But seeing themselves in one another they were ashamed neither of what they were doing nor of what they were having done to them” (19-20; my translation).

As by now this discussion, along with my "one flesh" discussion in a previous comment here, should provide a clear answer to your first paragraph. You say: Brownson "argues against your view that the Yahwist treats marriage as a 'reunion of the sexual unity of the original adam,' pointing out that your evidence for interpreting the text that way rests largely on the third-century AD rabbi Samuel bar Nahman rather than any commentary within Scripture itself." I've cited other Jewish texts above from the first century above, but all of these simply reinforce a point that is self-evident in the narrative of Genesis 2:21-24. Something is extracted from the human. That's now missing from what can appropriately be called a man. That something missing is formed into a woman who is referred to as a "counterpart" or "complement" to the man, a person both like (as a human) and different (in terms of sex/gender). It is clear from this that the sexual bonding of the two reunites the sexual whole. The two halves of the sexual spectrum join into a single sexual whole, "one flesh."

11. Robert A. J. Gagnon:

Okay, Matthew, I've now dealt with what you apparently regard as the salient arguments in Brownson's arsenal. To me it doesn't seem like Brownson's arguments are at all persuasive. As Preston has noted, this only begins to unload the evidence on a host of other missteps on Jim Brownson's part. I really hope we can work out an occasion where you and I and also Jim and I can publicly discuss this issue in videotaped forums. You or Jim present for 40 minutes, I present for 40, break, each of us have a rebuttal for 20 minutes, perhaps a short 5-minute rejoinder from each to wrap up, short break, then open to questions from an audience. Should be lots of fun. Civility will of course rule the time together. I think this will help people decide whether the case from Scripture (including Jesus) really does decisively rule out every and any form of same-sex relations.

12. David Nash:
If this were to happen Robert A. J. Gagnon, please make time for cross examination. In the debates that I've watched, this is really where the rubber meets the road.

13. Robert A. J. Gagnon:

I fully agree. In fact that is the whole point in having a real-time interaction. James Brownson and Matthew Vines can say when I'm not standing next to them that Gagnon does not address so and so, or Gagnon overlooked this or that point, or Gagnon claims this (when that is exactly what I claim), or (the more usual route) just plain ignore a truckload of evidence that I do provide. Jim and Matt can likewise do the same for me, though be assured that I will not be overlooking their best arguments. The conversation can be done constructively (what does Scripture say with clarity and where shall we go from here?), respectfully (no yelling, name-calling, personal attacks), and even hopefully to build relationships (Matt and Jim are not enemies, even though they promote views that I think are harmful, as doubtless they think the same about me).

Once debated David Bartlett (NT, homiletics) of Yale, where he claimed (as Jim and Matt do) that Jesus and the authors of Scripture are not opposed to committed homosexual relationships. After he and I had made our initial presentations, the opportunity came for 15-minute rebuttals. Bartlett got up and said, "Well, it is not really about Scripture for me anyways," and after another 2 minutes of comments sat down. That is helpful for people to know in making their decision about which direction they want to go in.

William Loader, NT scholar from Australian who has written 9 or so books on sexual ethics in early Judaism and Christianity (the only biblical scholar who has written more on sex than I have, though not about homosexuality), who, though an advocate for gay marriage, already agreed with me that the indictments of homosexual practice in Scripture include committed same-sex unions, said after my critique of his orientation and misogyny "new knowledge" arguments, "Well, we are not that far apart after all." He even agreed that Jesus believed strongly in a male-female requirement for sexual relations but added, "I disagree with Jesus because I can't share his acceptance of the creation myth in Genesis." That too is helpful for people to know in deciding which direction to go in.

As it now stands, Jim and Matt make the public case that Jesus and the writers of Scripture were not (and would not be) opposed to committed homosexual unions entered into by homosexually oriented persons. That is a thesis that can be tested and evaluated. If their thesis is true, it has significant implications for the church. I contend that a male-female requirement for sexual relations is viewed by Jesus and the writers of Scripture generally as foundational. If true, that has significant implications for the church. Either way an evening of this sort can be a constructive enterprise in having people think through these crucial concerns.

Beyond all that, it would be good to meet young Matt and renew acquaintances with old Jim (who was a couple of years ahead of me in the doctoral program at Princeton Theological Seminary; we overlapped for a time).

14. Preston Sprinkle:

Robert, I really like your proposal for a dialogue between you and Jim. My only request is that we all go for beers afterwards, which, as a Lutheran, I'm sure you would gladly accept. Matthew Vines and I will buy. He doesn't know it yet, but I'm sure he would concur.

Salting our "debates" with a bit of relational flesh could actually further the discussion and put flesh on the "issue."

As we banter around with Greek words and verses, we all need to keep in mind that we're talking about real people with a myriad of joys and pains, fears and struggles. Like Maddie, who was chained to a toilet for 3 months by her father when she was 9, then raped for the next 4 years, by her father, and then told she would be killed if she told anyone. Maddie isn't attracted to women, but she's a self-professed Lesbian because "no man will ever touch me again."

This doesn't change my theological position. But it does temper my rhetoric and sharpen my pastoral heart. I now read Romans 1 with tears and an anxious heart.

So let's make sure we go for beers after the debate.

15. Robert A. J. Gagnon:

Agreed, Preston. Only (and don't hate me for this) I don't drink beer. Never developed a taste for it. (Root beer, yes.) I'll drink a little wine now and then, but not too much. To me it is more tempting to have a root beer float, a banana split with all the toppings, or a nice big chocolate cake (and when I say chocolate, I mean chocolate). Oh, and I'm Presbyterian, not Lutheran, with a Baptist and Charismatic streak.

16. Robert A. J. Gagnon:

Just saw this posted on the Wikipedia page for Matthew: "Requests for public debates with Vines have tended to be declined or ignored." Shouldn't that rather be posted about me?

https://www.facebook.com/robert.a.gagnon.56/posts/10154879070245045