I see Drake Shelton made it official last summer by formally renouncing the Christian faith. I don't keep up with his blog, so I hadn't noticed until now. Drake used to be a prominent undistinguished Scripturalist.
His apostasy was facilitated by hobnobbing with Dale Tuggy (anti-Trinitarian) and David Waltz (former[?] Jehovah's Witness, religious pluralist, Islamic sympathizer). When you swim with sharks you may wind up on the menu.
Intellectual pride was always Drake's Achilles heel. He feels the need to stake out eccentric positions to make himself stand out. He can't bear the thought of being average, ordinary. Plays into his white supremacist complex. But he's certainly a poor candidate for the Master Race.
Sean Gerety finds it polemically useful to lump Ryan Hedrich (winner of the Trinity Foundation's Clark Prizes) with Drake Shelton, but Ryan is quite level-headed. I don't anticipate him going down the same path.
Daniel Chew is one of the more intelligent and stable Scripturalists. I think he's still a Scripturalist. He's currently a student at WSC. Chew has an interesting background.
During the Clark Controversy, I think Gordon Clark generally had the better of the argument. Of course, that was early Clark. Late Clark became increasingly erratic.
A collection of links on Scripturalism
ReplyDeleteCritiques of Clarkianism and Scripturalism
I remember Drake when he came into GPTS (we came in the same year). I got the impression from Drake that he wanted to teach the professors, instead of learning from them. While tuition to GPTS is less than any other seminary, I'm not sure why someone would spend money to "teach" professors. Drake lasted, if I'm not mistaken, two semesters.
ReplyDeleteI just caught a video of Drake saying that he has spent thousands of hours in a room by himself studying. Not a good thing.
I've kinda been monitoring Drake's blog I remember THIS blog where he wrote:
DeleteQUOTE
I am going to leave my blog up but I am not going to be writing much anymore. The journey to reach the conclusions I have come to reach has been one of intense mental and emotional anguish. I work out 5 days a week. I rarely drink alcohol. I don’t smoke tobacco. I rarely take caffeine and my blood pressure flirts with 165/90 on a regular basis. For the sake of my health, I can’t do this anymore. Life turned out to be more f-d up than I ever imagined. If I continue to travel down this rabbit hole I might just have a heart attack and/or loose my mind. I have spent the last 14 years trying to obey and figure out what the Bible means and it has cost me my woman, every friend I have had since I was a child, my scholarship for college, my back, and any chance to have a family and a career. I have written about 13 books and I don’t get paid to do this. I have a complete theory on just about every issue that pertains to human philosophy. I think that is a sufficient search for the truth and I believe I have found the organization that I belong in. I hope the best for you my readers.
END QUOTE
I commend him for his diligence in seeking after the truth. Unfortunately, in many areas and topics I think he's got it wrong or even went backwards theologically (e.g. the sabbath issue). On other issues, I think he might be on to something (though often going overboard). He needs prayer just like we all do.
He casts himself in the flattering role of the brave, lonely martyr for truth. Unlike all those cowardly Christians, he's prepared to courageously follow the evidence wherever it leads, regardless of the personal cost to himself.
DeleteA more plausible interpretation is that he plays the iconoclast because that makes him feel special. Christians are a dime a dozen.
Wow that's very insightful Jeff...
DeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
DeleteJeff,
DeleteThe only reason I am saying this is your pathetic attempt to personally shame me to the world while barely knowing me. Yeah I remember you too, in Greek class literally crying weeks into the first semester of Greek because you couldn't grasp basic concepts of language...Sorry, coming from you I don't take your criticisms very seriously.
Anyway, if you want to put your money where your mouth is then debate me on this issue right here or wherever you want it dude. Man up!
Drake,
DeleteReally? Is there something wrong with struggling with Greek, English, etc. To be honest Drake, prior coming to GPTS, I hardly had any background in English (I was too busy getting stoned during middle and high school years). I struggled in 2007, I struggle now (although I certainly know more at this point). Your point is? BTW: I wasn't literally crying - there is no reason to lie Drake.
I'm not trying to shame you. I'd be very happy to delete my comment (I've certainly thought about it). The point of mentioning what I did, was to confirm the attitude you seem to carry, was the same attitude you came into seminary with seven years ago. If I were trying to shame you, I'd find audio of you from the classes I recorded, and post them online. I have no interest in doing so.
I don't see how Jeff said anything wrong about Drake.
DeleteHowever, Drake can't bear scorn, for he is a proud spirit.
Since I'm not a Scripturalist I wouldn't have known Drake Shelton fully apostated until I read this; but then if I was a Scripturalist I wouldn't have known about Drake Shelton at all, since his name doesn't appear in the Bible.
ReplyDeleteThanks. Unfortunately, Sean has managed to convince several people I reject Trinitarianism, including the current editor of The Trinity Foundation and administrator of the Gordon H. Clark Discussions Group.
ReplyDeleteI crossed virtual pens with Drake a few years ago, and at that time he struck me as an extreme obscurantist. Too bad he's committed apostasy, but I'd rather have folks like him publicly pronounce their faithlessness and leave the professing church than remain inside acting as so much spiritual gangrene.
ReplyDeleteHey, it's not just Drake. What about all those other Calvinist, Nicene Monarchist, White Supremacist Natsarim Messianic Jews out there?
ReplyDeleteIf "hobnobbing" with me means ranting on my blog until being permanently banned after about a day (or less?), then I suppose he did that. You've done a lot more hobnobbing with me Steve... uh oh!
ReplyDeleteMe, I've hobnobbed with various anti-unitarians, but it hasn't damaged my faith, thankfully.
Why are you so defensive? Drake is one of your success stories? Maybe you should run an "Apostate of the Month" feature at your blog. Perhaps have prizes.
ReplyDeleteYou know Steve, it still counts as hobnobbing if we do it here. You've clearly out-nobbed the Drake-meister.
ReplyDeleteAh, but unlike Drake, I wore a garlic necklace under my shirt which enabled me to resist the blandishments of the dark side.
DeleteSteve,
ReplyDelete"I see Drake Shelton made it official last summer by formally renouncing the Christian faith. I don't keep up with his blog, so I hadn't noticed until now. Drake used to be a prominent Scripturalist."
>>>Prominent Scripturalist? I was never published by the T Foundation or won any awards. Not sure where you are getting that idea.
"His apostasy was facilitated by hobnobbing with Dale Tuggy (anti-Trinitarian)"
>>>I have had one conversation with Dale Tuggy and it came across pretty clear to me that he despised me. Don't know where that came from.
"and David Waltz (former[?] Jehovah's Witness, religious pluralist, Islamic sympathizer). When you swim with sharks you may wind up on the menu."
>>>Now I will admit this one. David is a brilliant man and I have learned a great deal reading his work. Good man.
"Intellectual pride was always Drake's Achilles heel."
>>>The pot, no the color black itself, calling the kettle black.
"He feels the need to stake out eccentric positions to make himself stand out."
>>>Is that what happened Steve? What is your proof of it? You know nothing about me or the family issues that I experienced that spurred the racial stuff if that is what you were referring to.
"He can't bear the thought of being average, ordinary. Plays into his white supremacist complex."
>>> PROJECTION
"But he's certainly a poor candidate for the Master Race."
>>>I never said the white race is the master race. I have made very clear that I think the Jewish people are the apple of Yahuwah's eye.
"Sean Gerety finds it polemically useful to lump Ryan Hedrich (winner of the Trinity Foundation's Clark Prizes) with Drake Shelton, but Ryan is quite level-headed."
>>>Ryan is also a brilliant man. Sean got his head handed to him by Ryan and only intimidation has kept his small flock in tact.
"I don't anticipate him going down the same path."
>>>Ryan followed me pretty close on the Trinitarian issue. If you aren't a Trinitarian you can't be a Christian. I know Ryan has not connected those dots yet but I pray he does.
"Daniel Chew is one of the more intelligent and stable Scripturalists."
>>>Oh how cute Steve! You're trying to make rifts in the Scripturalists by flirting with their hubris.
"During the Clark Controversy, I think Gordon Clark generally had the better of the argument. Of course, that was early Clark. Late Clark became increasingly erratic. "
>>>Again the pot calling the kettle......
Anyway Steve why don't you stop this little personal diatribe against me and just step in the ring man to man and let's debate this whole issue. Christianity vs. The Hebrew Roots movement. Right here.
Drake Shelton
Delete"I was never published by the T Foundation or won any awards. Not sure where you are getting that idea."
I never said you won any awards.
"I have had one conversation with Dale Tuggy and it came across pretty clear to me that he despised me. Don't know where that came from."
My comment wasn't based on your having a conversation with Tuggy. Rather, you were reading his blog and finding material sympathetic to your doubts about the Trinity.
"David is a brilliant man and I have learned a great deal reading his work. Good man."
One of Satan's little helpers.
"You know nothing about me or the family issues that I experienced that spurred the racial stuff if that is what you were referring to."
I know people who know you. And your crackpottery isn't confined to white supremacy.
"If you aren't a Trinitarian you can't be a Christian."
True.
"I know Ryan has not connected those dots yet but I pray he does."
Who do you pray to these days? Thor? The Raëlian Elohim? Your reflection in the mirror?
"You're trying to make rifts in the Scripturalists by flirting with their hubris."
So you're envious that I said something nice about Chew.
"Christianity vs. The Hebrew Roots movement."
You lurch from one fad to another, with the same absolute confidence in your current fad that you exhibited in your former fad du jour.
Steve,
Delete"I never said you won any awards."
>>>You are deliberately changing the subject. You baselessly stated I was a prominent scripturalist.
"My comment wasn't based on your having a conversation with Tuggy. Rather, you were reading his blog and finding material sympathetic to your doubts about the Trinity."
>>>I read his debate with you which I used to eviscerate your theology proper. You still have not even dared touch these issues as you know very well.
http://drakeshelton.com/2012/07/25/a-full-refutation-of-steve-hays-van-tillian/
"I know people who know you. And your crackpottery isn't confined to white supremacy."
>>>You are just making shit up now. You know no one who knows me. You are using the word crackpot to really mean, "I don't like what you're saying so I'm going to throw some word out that makes it sound like I have examined what you are saying when in fact I haven't scratched the surface. I just want to comfort myself in dismissing you and that word makes me feel better."
"Who do you pray to these days? Thor? The Raëlian Elohim? Your reflection in the mirror?"
>>>Yahuwah.
"So you're envious that I said something nice about Chew."
>>>All Christian people are grossly deceived. There are some better than others, you being the scum of the earth, and people like Ryan and David, confused and deceived but men with good intentions.
"You lurch from one fad to another, with the same absolute confidence in your current fad that you exhibited in your former fad du jour."
>>>I notice you offer nothing to prove this statement. If you don't want to debate Steve then keep my name out of your mouth you fawning coward.
Drake Shelton
Delete"You are deliberately changing the subject."
I'm responding to you on your own terms. That's hardly changing the subject.
"You baselessly stated I was a prominent scripturalist."
If you prefer, I could amend that to say you were an undistinguished scripturalist. Would that make you feel better?
"I read his debate with you which I used to eviscerate your theology proper. You still have not even dared touch these issues as you know very well."
You look so cute in your tights and costume sword.
"You know no one who knows me."
Oh, you'd be surprised.
"I'm going to throw some word out that makes it sound like I have examined what you are saying when in fact I haven't scratched the surface."
When I scratch the surface of a shallow thinker, I hit bedrock.
"All Christian people are grossly deceived."
But you used to be a Christian. So were you grossly deceived back then, or are you grossly deceived right now? Perhaps you're grossly deceived in thinking all Christians are growly deceived.
"If you don't want to debate Steve then keep my name out of your mouth you fawning coward."
The spray paint is wearing off your cardboard sword. Better give it another coat.
Steve,
ReplyDelete“I'm responding to you on your own terms. That's hardly changing the subject.”
>>>No you are not. Until you provide a basis for saying that I was a prominent scripturalist this is just another game you are playing to protect your hubris.
“If you prefer, I could amend that to say you were an undistinguished scripturalist. Would that make you feel better?”
>>>Or you? You mis-spoke, I pointed it out and you are trying everything you can to protect you seething hubris.
“You look so cute in your tights and costume sword.”
>>>Another diversion.
“Oh, you'd be surprised.”
>>>No an answer. Another diversion.
“When I scratch the surface of a shallow thinker, I hit bedrock. “
>>>You are using another word, shallow, to make it sound like you have dealt with my work which we both know you haven’t.
“But you used to be a Christian. So were you grossly deceived back then, or are you grossly deceived right now? Perhaps you're grossly deceived in thinking all Christians are growly deceived.”
>>>You are an insolent child. Man up on the debate Steve or keep my name out of your mouth.
And if I don't keep your name out of my mouth, will lightning strike me dead? You need to resist your empty posturing. It just makes you look impotent.
DeleteI notice both Steve and Jeff, refuse to debate the issue at hand.
ReplyDeleteWhat issue would that be? The Hebrew Roots movement? If I wanted to critique that movement, I hardly need to debate a hack like you to do so.
DeleteThe fact that the Hebrew Roots movement is your current toy, after you got bored with your previous toys, doesn't obligate me to play in your sandbox. How you spend your time is up to you. How I spend my time is not up to you.
Not sure if I'm not wasting my time and this won't get posted, but, just for the record, I do agree with you and your assessments of Shelton, Ryan and Chew. I also pray that Ryan "connects the dots" and rejects the anti-trinitarian nonsense he's adopted from Shelton. I see here above that he thinks he's been treated unfairly by me and I assume by others, but on a blog piece he wrote last year he admits: "Or perhaps the position I espouse is considered to be closer to or even actual heresy, in which case it merits a harsher and fuller rebuke." That's certainly my view, but I still hold out hope he one day repudiates pieces like "Drake Shelton's Triadology: A Summary" and other similar posts that are featured on his blog.
ReplyDelete