by PZ MyersI like Jamy Ian Swiss, and he’s definitely a passionate speaker…But the first half of this talk is scattered with sniping at atheists, and smug back-patting about how superior skeptics are to atheists.The worst part begins at 11:30. This is where he starts reciting anecdotes. He declares that “the world is full of atheists who are not skeptics,” and gives us a few personal examples.He was at an atheist meetup and found an atheist woman who believed in The Secret. At an atheist parenting group, he met someone who asked his wife about her astrological sign. He hates Bill Maher.Yes? This is new? We’re supposed to be surprised that there are dumbass atheists? Of course there are.I don’t believe in The Secret, or astrology, and I also detest Bill Maher. When Maher got nominated for the Richard Dawkins award for his movie Religulous, there were howls of protest from the atheist community, too. Portraying atheists by the stupid people in their midst is a game I can play, too — I’ve been to TAM several times.Guess what? The world is full of skeptics who are not skeptics. I’ve met skeptics who are 9-11 truthers, at TAM. I’ve met skeptics who think ESP is reasonable and has been demonstrated, at TAM. I’ve met skeptics who believe in an afterlife and think ghosts can be detected by their electromagnetic emissions, at TAM. I’ve met skeptics whose idea of arguing with believers is to make cheesy martial arts videos of skeptics kicking woo-woo proponents in the crotch, at TAM. I’ve met skeptics who believe in goddamn Jesus, at TAM.You want to start listing people who believe in idiotic things within the atheist movement? I can match them one for one with people in the skeptics movement.
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hey you can't just say "It takes one to know one". Then you are admitting that atheists can dismiss Christianity because there are flaky Christians.
ReplyDeleteAn atheist who believes in "the Secret" is being self contradictory since they believe in the supernatural, but that doesn't show atheism proper is wrong, so you are being irrational.
I'm simply noting that this is how two prominent atheists characterize their fellow atheists.
DeleteAn atheist who believes in "the Secret" is being self contradictory since they believe in the supernatural, but that doesn't show atheism proper is wrong, so you are being irrational.
DeleteFor the past several hundred years in the Western philosophical tradition "atheism" referred to the positive belief in the non-existence of God. That is, belief that the proposition "God exists" is false. But in modern times, many professing atheists have defined atheism as "lack of a belief in God or gods."
Taking that modern definition (AKA "weak atheism" or "negative atheism"), there's nothing inconsistent with being an atheist and believing in "The Secret".
Atheism doesn't entail naturalism and/or materialism. There are religious atheists like certain Buddhists. There are platonic atheists who deny materialism and believe in Platonic forms and ideas in addition to material objects. In fact, atheism is consistent with the belief in the supernatural and supernatural beings (e.g. things like or similar to angels, demons, jinn etc) depending on whether one defines such immaterial agents as "gods" or "god-like" or not. There are atheistic Wiccans who deny the actual ontological existence of gods, yet believe in Wiccan Magick whereby one can manipulate natural and/or extra-natural powers for good and beneficial purposes.
Weak/Negative atheism (as opposed to strong/postive atheism) can be agnostic on the existence of the supernatural and on the existence of gods and God, angels and demons etc.
Also, the principles and explanation of "The Secret" need not be understood in supernatural terms. It also goes without saying that atheism isn't inconsistent with superstition. Since, while some atheists believe God belief is superstitious, there are other superstitions beside God belief. Atheism only has to do with a certain kind/type of (supposed) superstition; namely belief in gods/God. An atheist can believe in luck/fortune, astrology, horoscopes, fairies, ghosts, the paranormal, UFOs etc.
rvntyo, I might be wrong, but you seem to be confusing and conflating materialism and naturalism with atheism.
So, Steve isn't being irrational, you are.
Annoyed, you are being annoying. You have to redefine 'atheism' in order to make your point. A 'weak atheist' who believes in supernatural entities believes in 'gods' so to speak, just not the one found in scripture.
ReplyDeleteAnyone claiming to be 'atheist' while being superstitious or denying materialism/naturalism is unaware of the foundation that would allow them to call themselves 'atheist' in the first place. It's like if a 1st century Christian actually believed the Roman accusation that they were an atheist.
To spell it out catechetically:
What is atheism?
* a lack of belief in god(s).
Why is there a lack of belief?
* the evidence is insufficient.
Is the insufficiency for evidence for the OT/NT god the same as the insufficiency for belief in the power of positive thinking, belief in Allah, belief in the god of Mormonism, belief in ghosts, fairies and the paranormal?
* yes. Humans are unreliable conveyors of religious/paranormal experience. This can be shown inductively, and gives one epistemological grounds to disbelieve all reports of the religious/paranormal unless a properly reproducible, documentable phenomenon can be demonstrated.
Any other definition of atheism is meaningless. What does it mean to say you are an atheist who believes in godlike spirits?!
Wiccans who believe in ceremonial Magick are equivalent to inept scientists, as C.S. Lewis described the alchemists. They DON'T believe in anything supernatural, they just don't understand how the natural world works.
To say otherwise is to allow people to define Mormons, Westboro or Nazis as Christians, ie. introduce a sloppiness in language that people like you are always whining about.
rvntyo
ReplyDelete"What is atheism?* a lack of belief in god(s)."
So a vacuum cleaner is an atheist. After all, a vacuum clean lacks belief in god(s).
"Why is there a lack of belief? * the evidence is insufficient."
Begs the question.
"Is the insufficiency for evidence for the OT/NT god the same as the insufficiency for belief in the power of positive thinking, belief in Allah, belief in the god of Mormonism, belief in ghosts, fairies and the paranormal?"
Bundles together a number of disparate claims.
"* yes. Humans are unreliable conveyors of religious/paranormal experience."
Begs the question.
"This can be shown inductively, and gives one epistemological grounds to disbelieve all reports of the religious/paranormal unless a properly reproducible, documentable phenomenon can be demonstrated."
Who have you actually studied on the miracles or paranormal phenomena?
//What is atheism?
ReplyDelete* a lack of belief in god(s).
Any other definition of atheism is meaningless.//
1. Agnostics lack a belief in God. So is the extension of the set of atheists identical to the extension of the set of agnostics? But haven't those historically been considered distinct.
2. Here's a df. of atheism: Atheist =df Any person who believes there is not a god.
Given what you've said, you'd have to say (2) is *meaningless*. But it is a well-constructed English sentence, it certainly appears meaningful. On what theory of language does (2) come out "meaningless"?